NCAA Rules changes coming!!

[donboy6499]

In both cases aren't you down two TDs? I imagine along with those lopsided wins you'll see some fantastic come back wins.

The only rule I wish they would attempt to fix was when a top wrestler carries or pulls a bottom wrestler OOB as he almost escapes.

The difference (and it is a big one) is that, with current rules, one point stalling dings matter more when the score is 4-2/4-3. They matter much less, and will be happily taken much more often, when the score is 6-2/6-3.

But who are we kidding, they don't call it in either case anyway.

 

[District four]

We should make the second warning from stalling four points lmfao

 

[82bordeaux]

Doesn’t that mean most guys will stall for 30 seconds to avoid giving up a point?

Maybe. But they will only stall for 30 seconds, then they are back on their feet down 2-0. You would have to have at least two takedowns to establish a riding time point. It's better than watching some guy flop on the deck like a fish for 60-90 seconds before the ref gives the first stalling warning. It also limits the amount of riding you can do without getting near fall points.

 

[donboy6499]

I must say, this topic has produced actual wrestling discussion with great points from a lot of perspectives. Learning a lot.

 

[PAgeologist]

This.

Would add that their lack of calling the stall means that guys are massively incentivized to just never wrestle late with any lead. The irony with Spencer losing is that, had he just wrestled the last 40 seconds like everyone else does with a 3 point lead, he likely wins 8-5. He probably could have sprinted to OOB and won by that spread. Were never going to ding him, let alone enough that it would have impacted the result.

I don't have too big of an issue with guys not actively engaging the last 30 seconds of a match if they're in the lead. It just means at some point, they did something to earn points during the match. It's similar to kneeling on the ball to end a football game. Why run a play that might cost you.

I have a big problem with allowing inactivity the other 6:30 of the match.

And yes, Spencer earned the right to run away at the end of that match. He didn't and it cost him. A lot of fans I'm sure wouldn't have liked it and I'm sure a ton of booing would have happened. But he is likely a 4X champ if he does.

 

[yakrider]

Still better than 1 TD to a leg lace followed by 4 turns in free.

I don't disagree with anything you say here, but it can really just be summarized to "Just make it Freestyle".

I agree with the silliness and unsatisfying watching of a leg lace/trapped arm rolling around ending. However, to give some of these refs the liberty to be more subjective coupled with reviewing their own as in freestyle, may not be the answer. "Some" ( I'm looking at you angel) of these refs struggle with calling a folk style match as it currently exists and I can't imagine allowing them more authority in regards takedowns, back exposure, scrambles, continuations etc etc etc

 

[yakrider]

I must say, this topic has produced actual wrestling discussion with great points from a lot of perspectives. Learning a lot.

now, for vacation this year, I was thinking bout going to ...................

 

[PAgeologist]

We should make the second warning from stalling four points lmfao

I know you're joking but actually that not a bad idea.

1 warning
2 one point
3 two points
4 three points
5 default

But you still got to get refs to call it.

 

[donboy6499]

I don't have too big of an issue with guys not actively engaging the last 30 seconds of a match if they're in the lead. It just means at some point, they did something to earn points during the match. It's similar to kneeling on the ball to end a football game. Why run a play that might cost you.

I have a big problem with allowing inactivity the other 6:30 of the match.

And yes, Spencer earned the right to run away at the end of that match. He didn't and it cost him. A lot of fans I'm sure wouldn't have liked it and I'm sure a ton of booing would have happened. But he is likely a 4X champ if he does.

I would agree with the first paragraph, except that what the guys are doing is clearly stalling. Would be like the officials letting teams kneel using 1 minute of playclock rather than the prescribed 25 or 40 seconds, simply because they had a lead. That lead was earned within the rules, but so should maintaining it be asked to be done within the rules.

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

I typically like tradition when it comes to sports. However, escapes have always been worth too much IMO. How many RBY/Nolf/Brooks matches have we watched where they are destroying guys on their feet only to be winning 8-5 or 10-6 only giving up escapes. Escapes are going to be even more common without the riding point. Guys will just cut them loose. Something has to give. 3 pt TD's is the answer, albeit throwing tradition out the door.

Don’t give an escape and turn guys. Mat wrestling has and should always matter in folk

 

[donboy6499]

Don’t give an escape and turn guys. Mat wrestling has and should always matter in folk

That's kind of where I'm at.

What I like to watch:

Freestyle wrestling
Folkstyle wrestling

Not really a little bit of each. Takes too many of the things that are good with each and removes them.

 

[psualt]

Maybe. But they will only stall for 30 seconds, then they are back on their feet down 2-0. You would have to have at least two takedowns to establish a riding time point. It's better than watching some guy flop on the deck like a fish for 60-90 seconds before the ref gives the first stalling warning. It also limits the amount of riding you can do without getting near fall points.

I have no problem with a guy stuck on bottom if the top man is aggressively working. Let him flail. PSU has their own share of guys that don’t attempt a turn but if that means the Zains and Spencer Lee types that are equally good on the mat are neutralized then I think the rule stinks.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

Best unintended consequence?

A ton of ol' timey traditionalists, who are PSU wrestling season ticket holders, give up their seats, because:

1. They no longer recognize the sport as the folkstyle they participated in and grew to love.
2. Due to PSU's wrestling style, the average dual length falls well under an hour, making their round trip drive just no longer worth it (except maybe for duals with PSWC socials).

There's always got to be a silver lining, no?

 

[donboy6499]

Best unintended consequence?

A ton of ol' timey traditionalists, who are PSU wrestling season ticket holders, give up their seats, because:

1. They no longer recognize the sport as the folkstyle they participated in and grew to love.
2. Due to PSU's wrestling style, the average dual length falls well under an hour, making their round trip drive just no longer worth it (except maybe for duals with PSWC socials).

There's always got to be a silver lining, no?

Always.

 

[WexfordWarrior]

Best unintended consequence?

A ton of ol' timey traditionalists, who are PSU wrestling season ticket holders, give up their seats, because:

1. They no longer recognize the sport as the folkstyle they participated in and grew to love.
2. Due to PSU's wrestling style, the average dual length falls well under an hour, making their round trip drive just no longer worth it (except maybe for duals with PSWC socials).

There's always got to be a silver lining, no?

I don't care how boring it becomes. None of you young whipper snappers are getting my tickets.

 

[PAgeologist]

I would agree with the first paragraph, except that what the guys are doing is clearly stalling. Would be like the officials letting teams kneel using 1 minute of playclock rather than the prescribed 25 or 40 seconds, simply because they had a lead. That lead was earned within the rules, but so should maintaining it be asked to be done within the rules.

I understand what you are saying there. I wouldn't have a problem if the ref dings the guy running for stalling.

But how many times can you reasonably call stalling in 30 seconds. And more importantly, it is consistent with the way the rest of the match was called. If a ref allows a guy to not attempt any offense without calling him for stalling for 6:30, he shouldnt call it the last :30 on the wrestler with a lead.

Lets take a typical Lewan match. He is down 3-2, with 30 seonds left. He has given up a TD and earned an escape. The wrestlers traded escapes in second and third. No stall calls. If its a typical match by him, he has attempted virtually no offense. How does a ref hit his opponent for stalling the last 30 seconds when Lewan finally has to take a shot.

 

[KCLion]

Yup, and I hear the response being, "Well with a 3 point TD, a Lewan knows the value now and will take a chance early to get it". Okay, assume he does come out more aggressive and does get one, then gives up an escape. 3-1 after 1, his favor.

Let's play this out. With an opponent getting 3 for a TD and Lewan knowing he only gets 1 for escape, why on Earth would he ever engage the rest of the match? Might say, correctly, that he doesn't now either.

But this rule change doesn't fix the issue. Now if you add a step out or liberally called stalling, ok. But we all know that's not going to happen. In a one point match, the guy winning will get a single stall. In a 2 point match, he will get 2 stalls and bring it to 1 point win.

When we get to freestyle in college wrestling, I’m out. I may be the only one, but I just don’t like freestyle scoring.

 

[donboy6499]

I understand what you are saying there. I wouldn't have a problem if the ref dings the guy running for stalling.

But how many times can you reasonably call stalling in 30 seconds. And more importantly, it is consistent with the way the rest of the match was called. If a ref allows a guy to not attempt any offense without calling him for stalling for 6:30, he shouldnt call it the last :30 on the wrestler with a lead.

Lets take a typical Lewan match. He is down 3-2, with 30 seonds left. He has given up a TD and earned an escape. The wrestlers traded escapes in second and third. No stall calls. If its a typical match by him, he has attempted virtually no offense. How does a ref hit his opponent for stalling the last 30 seconds when Lewan finally has to take a shot.

That's fair.

I think sometimes this is where a more black and white step out helps. I feel like the official allows for 1-2 (at least, sometimes 2-3) backing out of the circle before hitting for stall 1, then at the point it's 8 seconds left and the guy is still allowed to go both feet out and circle back around.

But at some point, Lewan, though he did nothing for most the match, has the right to not have the guy up 3-2 run away as well. In reality, it probably plays out that, if we call stalling as it should be, Lewan himself has been hit with at least 1, probably more. So that would even out.

But my biggest issue is that, in Freestyle wrestling, you see a lot of late match scores in one takedown matches simply because the guy ahead really does have to wrestle until the whistle. In folkstyle, we just have gotten seasoned to accept the end of matches being bled out.

When we get to freestyle in college wrestling, I’m out. I may be the only one, but I just don’t like freestyle scoring.

I probably am as well.


I like both, prefer folk. This would be true especially in college wrestling.


At some point, though, if they adopt these changes, you don't have what we know as folkstyle anymore. So if that is the chosen route, just go all the way.

 

[creamery freak]

What about a shot clock in the 1st period. If wrestler A is making all the attempts and wrestler B is defensive. After 2 minutes B is put on the clock for the last minute. No td and A gets 1 point, but if B starts shooting it opens up A's opportunities. Just another idea.

 

[District four]

I know you're joking but actually that not a bad idea.

1 warning
2 one point
3 two points
4 three points
5 default

But you still got to get refs to call it.

I think the discussion we need to have with refs should be open and direct. Like ok fellas why is it so difficult for you to call stalling. From a human perspective I strongly feel that most refs don't want to determine the outcome of the match with stalling calls. I think refs should be trained on the fact that stalling calls are not the determining factor of a match they are simply a warning or a penalty to a wrestler to become more active and participate in the match the big issue is stalls at the end of a match. Maybe we should have ai do this for us lmfao. Seriously a non biased computer program that determines a wrestler made a certain percentage of backup steps or a pre conceived amount of time with not making an offensive move and if that happens a light goes off and the ref has to call stalling. Of course that light would be on continuously at any Iowa match so maybe use a soft glow light so not to adversely affect any fans. Just saying

 

[PSU Fan in TN]

I think the discussion we need to have with refs should be open and direct. Like ok fellas why is it so difficult for you to call stalling. From a human perspective I strongly feel that most refs don't want to determine the outcome of the match with stalling calls. I think refs should be trained on the fact that stalling calls are not the determining factor of a match they are simply a warning or a penalty to a wrestler to become more active and participate in the match the big issue is stalls at the end of a match. Maybe we should have ai do this for us lmfao. Seriously a non biased computer program that determines a wrestler made a certain percentage of backup steps or a pre conceived amount of time with not making an offensive move and if that happens a light goes off and the ref has to call stalling. Of course that light would be on continuously at any Iowa match so maybe use a soft glow light so not to adversely affect any fans. Just saying

Stalling, or inconsistent enforcement of the rules for stalling, is one of my 2 biggest complaints of this great sport. The other is the need to differentiate between earning an escape and being given a release. I don’t believe that awarding 3 points for a take-down addresses this. I am okay with take-downs being awarded 2 points, an earned escape being worth 1 point, and riding 60 seconds being 1 point – as all demonstrate a skill set. But, when given a release on a restart, the bottom wrestler hasn’t demonstrated any skill set and has done nothing worthy of being awarded a point. The exception – where 1 point would be awarded following a release -- would for those instances where the wrestler chooses bottom (such as the start of the 2nd or 3rd period, or following a medical time-out) as this allows for certain strategies to continue to be employed.

 

[nerfstate]

I don't agree w/ this guy very often, but today, 💯

 

[El-Jefe]

Lets take a typical Lewan match. He is down 3-2, with 30 seonds left. He has given up a TD and earned an escape. The wrestlers traded escapes in second and third. No stall calls. If its a typical match by him, he has attempted virtually no offense. How does a ref hit his opponent for stalling the last 30 seconds when Lewan finally has to take a shot.

That's way too many points for a typical Lewan match.

 

[nerfstate]

 

[El-Jefe]

I don't agree w/ this guy very often, but today, 💯

View embedded media

Ironically, #1 is 100% feelings over facts.

IDK what the facts are, but I do guarantee Felters did not research it.

Offhand, some rule changes that may have increased viewership (or may once data are in):
1. NFL basically making pass defense and QB hits illegal -- causing much more scoring.

2. NHL eliminating center line offsides, thereby killing the unwatchable neutral zone trap.

3. MLB pitch clock.

4. Landmines in soccer fields.

5. Golf promoting IG models in tight shirts and miniskirts.

OK, I may have made up the last 2 ...

 

[82bordeaux]

What about a shot clock in the 1st period. If wrestler A is making all the attempts and wrestler B is defensive. After 2 minutes B is put on the clock for the last minute. No td and A gets 1 point, but if B starts shooting it opens up A's opportunities. Just another idea.

Angel Rivera + shot clock =

 

[El-Jefe]

Angel Rivera + shot clock =

After 2 minutes, Angel Rivera gets shot?

 

[donboy6499]

View embedded media

Do I hear 6 point takedowns!!?? 7??!! 8!!??

Ironically, #1 is 100% feelings over facts.

IDK what the facts are, but I do guarantee Felters did not research it.

Offhand, some rule changes that may have increased viewership (or may once data are in):
1. NFL basically making pass defense and QB hits illegal -- causing much more scoring.

2. NHL eliminating center line offsides, thereby killing the unwatchable neutral zone trap.

3. MLB pitch clock.

4. Landmines in soccer fields.

5. Golf promoting IG models in tight shirts and miniskirts.

OK, I may have made up the last 2 ...

I would love to have rules changed/altered to increase action and provide more offense (which is what 1-3 do, or like you say, data very well might show).

But there's a reason that the NFL didn't just change touchdowns from 6-9 points in an effort to increase scoring. Going from 2-3 points on a takedown just changes the number on the board, and probably has as much impact in killing action as it does in increasing it.

 

[donboy6499]

Angel Rivera + shot clock =

 

[CowboyUp61]

Can't imagine it includes legitimate "pinning combinations" which a "Bow & Arrow" is... That's why they call them "pinning combinations" because they have nothing to do with "riding" and everything to do with attempting to pin.

IMO, it does include the Bow and Arrow-until it reaches criteria. So, once you grab the foot/ankle, you have 5 seconds to put them in criteria, or it is stalling. Too bad they didn't include the ankle trap with the leg also.

 

[CowboyUp61]

All the 3 point TD does is end matches sooner for no reason and help guys who can’t/won’t turn. Also it’ll encourage even more 1-takedown matches as guys stall out a 2-point lead

the answer to that is to go back to calling stalling on top!

 

[APSPSUwrestlingfan]

Ironically, #1 is 100% feelings over facts.

IDK what the facts are, but I do guarantee Felters did not research it.

Offhand, some rule changes that may have increased viewership (or may once data are in):
1. NFL basically making pass defense and QB hits illegal -- causing much more scoring.

2. NHL eliminating center line offsides, thereby killing the unwatchable neutral zone trap.

3. MLB pitch clock.

4. Landmines in soccer fields.

5. Golf promoting IG models in tight shirts and miniskirts.

OK, I may have made up the last 2 ...

5. works for me and 4. the landmines would make me watch soccer.

 

[CropDuster507]

Just call stalling on top and we don’t have to worry about half of this nonsense.

Parallel for 30sec? Warming. 30 more? Ding ‘em. Ding ‘em every 30 after that. I bet they work for a turn or cut the bottom wrestler.

 

[nerfstate]

Just call stalling on top and we don’t have to worry about half of this nonsense.

Parallel for 30sec? Warming. 30 more? Ding ‘em. Ding ‘em every 30 after that. I bet they work for a turn or cut the bottom wrestler.

Completely agree--though I guess it's been demonstrated that refs don't seem to want to do it.

 

[PSU Mike]

If they want to eliminate the stall ride, just place the wrestlers back at neutral with zero escape point awarded after 30 seconds of riding with no turn.

Close to my thinking, except I’d allow the top guy to maintain the ride past 30 under the premise that he may feel he’s closing in on a turn. So in summary I’d say keep TD2 with no escape point after 30 seconds’ control. Kill riding time and re-purpose that clock to time the 30 seconds of control.

 

[zzs006]

It sounds like I’m in the definite minority but I like the 3 point td. I watch so many PSU matches where someone like RBY is putting on a td clinic but with 2 for 1’s and giving up a late td pushing for a tech and it ends up like a 10 point win. I think for a team like PSU this is a huge positive development. We have so many kids push the pace from neutral this should turn into a lot more techs. I wish more kids were focused on turning from top and maybe the new rule proposals will help but I’m not sold. I know a lot of guys here don’t like freestyle but the one rule I wish that folk would adopt is the push out but only from neutral. Edge wrestling and stalling are horrible to watch and need fixed. I’m glad the coaches and higher ups are looking at ways to improve our great sport but I’m just not sure these ideas are the way to do it

 

[CropDuster507]

Completely agree--though I guess it's been demonstrated that refs don't seem to want to do it.

Absolutely. I saw it countless weekends at open tournaments. I BELIEVE (now, I mix up my rules quite a bit, rotating through many age groups/athletes), but I BELIEVE the issue is that the definition of stalling on top (in college) only asks that the top wrestler continues to attempt to break down, not turn.

Change it to “work for a turn” or something that forces them to uncover the hips. Easier for the refs to see and gauge. Easier for the crowd to notice (it’s boring). Something that they’re making 5-6 rules for only takes 1.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

I would agree with the first paragraph, except that what the guys are doing is clearly stalling. Would be like the officials letting teams kneel using 1 minute of playclock rather than the prescribed 25 or 40 seconds, simply because they had a lead. That lead was earned within the rules, but so should maintaining it be asked to be done within the rules.

Agreed. Stalling is not legal (especially of the variety where you are literally "fleeing") - doesn't matter if it's the first 30 seconds or last 30 seconds. Had Lee done this, they should have wacked him for Stalling - if he continued to immediately and blatantly do it again for another 5-10 seconds, hit him again.

 

[kadeeu]

Can someone explain how this new riding point rule would work? Can the turn be at any point in the match or does it have to have specific timing with respect to a ride? Does any any back points count or only those back points initiated during the top position/ride?

 

[PAgeologist]

Absolutely. I saw it countless weekends at open tournaments. I BELIEVE (now, I mix up my rules quite a bit, rotating through many age groups/athletes), but I BELIEVE the issue is that the definition of stalling on top (in college) only asks that the top wrestler continues to attempt to break down, not turn.

Change it to “work for a turn” or something that forces them to uncover the hips. Easier for the refs to see and gauge. Easier for the crowd to notice (it’s boring). Something that they’re making 5-6 rules for only takes 1.

It should be top wrestler actively looking to break down and turn. Bottom actively trying to escape. Anything else is stalling.

Too many guys riding just to ride, including several PSU wrestlers. I get you want to tire out the other guy, but many don't even attempt to turn. It's boring. Carter and RBY were among the biggest offenders. Accumulated lots of riding time with nothing to show. And they're such dynamic wrestlers that it's a bit disappointing to watch them at times.

Too many just turtle up on bottom content to get ridden out but not give up back points.