OT: FYI, JZ says Newsweek article is still a go. (edit: Story now spiked)

[nits74]

I think its interesting that some think the mainstream narrative is built on rock solid evidence, but anything that challenges it is just fantasy.

Generally speaking the American public will follow the MSM if it supports something it wants to believe. The two feed off one another. People just love to see an icon destroyed (it adds something to their otherwise mundane lives), and the media wants ratings. It's Joe they loved to see brought down. Sandusky? Truth be told, neither could not care less.

P.S. And if all this were not the case, the title of the HBO movie would (and should) be Sandusky, not Paterno.

 

[BUFFALO LION]

Truthfully, I'm so burned out over reading these threads over the past 7.5 years that I rarely bother to read or comment any longer. However, occasionally a question or two pops into my mind and I guess this as good a place as any to ask...

Has Jerry ever taken a polygraph since his arrest? If so, have the results ever been revealed? I would think if he passed one, at some point we would've heard about it at some point.

I know he agreed to take a polygraph, but has only said that the results are inadmissible in court. However, he does want to take a blood test to prove his hypogonadism. The warden at his prison is denying permission to have one.

 

[nits74]

I know he agreed to take a polygraph, but has only said that the results are inadmissible in court. However, he does want to take a blood test to prove his hypogonadism. The warden at his prison is denying permission to have one.

And that, I don't get. Why would the warden deny this. Not saying there isn't a legitimate reason, but it is curious. And why is he/she the ultimate say in this?

 

[Chris92]

Generally speaking the American public will follow the MSM if it supports something it wants to believe. The two feed off one another. People just love to see an icon destroyed (it adds something to their otherwise mundane lives), and the media wants ratings. It's Joe they loved to see brought down. Sandusky? Truth be told, neither could not care less.

P.S. And if all this were not the case, the title of the HBO movie would (and should) be Sandusky, not Paterno.

When the original Ganim story came out, there was zero national interest. But, fast forward to November with the media dousing Joe in gasoline, everyone suddenly was a victims advocate.

 

[bdgan]

What about 8 minors instead of 1? All testified as adults what the pedophile did and he had access to and managed to get alone over and over again. In terms of the porn, is 2 years not enough time to get rid of it?

I agree that JS has a problem and that he's guilty to some degree. That said, I think there are reasons to question alleged victims who change their stories after being promised a big paycheck.

The lack of porn doesn't prove innocence but I disagree with your 2 year statement. If JS lacked the discipline to stop showering with kids post 1998, I doubt he had the discipline to rid himself of incriminating pornographic material.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

I agree that JS has a problem and that he's guilty to some degree. That said, I think there are reasons to question alleged victims who change their stories after being promised a big paycheck.

The lack of porn doesn't prove innocence but I disagree with your 2 year statement. If JS lacked the discipline to stop showering with kids post 1998, I doubt he had the discipline to rid himself of incriminating pornographic material.

Ok.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

I'm still mystified that some find it hard to accept that JS can be very very guilty, and the whole process can still be very very corrupt. As it pertains to JS personally, I don't give a shit, but every citizen should be concerned about how easy it is to game the system if you are in a position of power.

 

[nits74]

I'm still mystified that some find it hard to accept that JS can be very very guilty, and the whole process can still be very very corrupt. As it pertains to JS personally, I don't give a shit, but every citizen should be concerned about how easy it is to game the system if you are in a position of power.

Yep, one should have nothing to do with the other. And like you, I find the corruption of our so-called best system in the world very troubling.

 

[MtNittany]

I'm still mystified that some find it hard to accept that JS can be very very guilty, and the whole process can still be very very corrupt. As it pertains to JS personally, I don't give a shit, but every citizen should be concerned about how easy it is to game the system if you are in a position of power.

People in this country today gladly give up their freedoms in order to appease some cause or virtue without even consideration. It's no longer "what I believe in" but rather "what would so and so think of me if I believed in that?"

 

[nits74]

People in this country today gladly give up their freedoms in order to appease some cause or virtue without even consideration. It's no longer "what I believe in" but rather "what would so and so think of me if I believed in that?"

And you almost can't blame them in this age of PC running wild. One can be vilified instantly. (And this isn't coming from someone on the right of the political spectrum).

 

[bdgan]

I'm still mystified that some find it hard to accept that JS can be very very guilty, and the whole process can still be very very corrupt. As it pertains to JS personally, I don't give a shit, but every citizen should be concerned about how easy it is to game the system if you are in a position of power.

I don't necessarily buy into the corruption thing but some things are incredibly troublesome.

1. DPW/CPS failed to deal with JS yet they get off the hook.
2. TSM fails to address the issue. The charity went out of business but administrators got off the hook.
3. Surely JM and Dranov knew just as much as the PSU administrators but they got off the hook.
4. The PSU BOT got off the hook.

C/S/S handled things poorly but is there any doubt that they were used as scapegoats in this whole episode?

JVP wasn't used as a scapegoat by the legal system but he was definitely used as a scapegoat by the BOT and the media.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

Insofar as TSM was never mentioned, was allowed to shred everything they wanted, and never were under the spotlight, tells me all I need to know about corruption.

 

[marshall23]

Truthfully, I'm so burned out over reading these threads over the past 7.5 years that I rarely bother to read or comment any longer. However, occasionally a question or two pops into my mind and I guess this as good a place as any to ask...

Has Jerry ever taken a polygraph since his arrest? If so, have the results ever been revealed? I would think if he passed one, at some point we would've heard about it at some point.

I'm being truthful, I read or heard somewhere that he did take a test. The results tended to support his denial of things (like oral and anal). The results were not clear when it came to touchy, feely stuff. Again, don't know where or when I heard it .....but its my recollection. I have no proof.

 

[Legion of Lions]

I know he agreed to take a polygraph, but has only said that the results are inadmissible in court. However, he does want to take a blood test to prove his hypogonadism. The warden at his prison is denying permission to have one.

Why would a prison official deny an inmate the ability to have a blood test unless he was instructed by someone "up-the-chain" to eliminate anything that could expose Sandusky as improperly tried and convicted?

Please explain that!

 

[Connorpozlee]

Why would a prison official deny an inmate the ability to have a blood test unless he was instructed by someone "up-the-chain" to eliminate anything that could expose Sandusky as improperly tried and convicted?

Please explain that!

Why would he grant it? Why would the warden be in the position to grant or deny an inmate requested blood test? I’m asking honestly, I have no idea what the process for this stuff would be. But I would imagine wardens are not typically in the practice of granting inmates requests willingly.

 

[indynittany]

Generally speaking the American public will follow the MSM if it supports something it wants to believe. The two feed off one another. People just love to see an icon destroyed (it adds something to their otherwise mundane lives), and the media wants ratings. It's Joe they loved to see brought down. Sandusky? Truth be told, neither could not care less.

P.S. And if all this were not the case, the title of the HBO movie would (and should) be Sandusky, not Paterno.

In general, I'm agreeing with you. However, I think what happened here speaks to PSU's refusal to defend Joe from day 1. They wouldn't let Joe have his press conference. They fired Spanier for defending C/S (and probably for being unwilling to fire Joe). They hired Louis Freeh to officially incriminate Joe and validate the BOT's actions.

After Joe's passing, talk of his role had subsided. People had generally calmed down as far as he was concerned. The Freeh report could have easily argued that Joe was barely involved and mostly kept in the dark, while still hammering C/S/S. That would have certainly been a more reasonable conclusion in light of what we know now.

I believe PSU wanted sanctions and for those sanctions to be tied to Paterno. The rapid fire release of the Freeh report, the NCAA sanctions and the removal of the statue was orchestrated for shock and awe. It was at the heart of the BOT's "move on" strategy.

There has always been two separate scandals here. 1) Why did PSU take the fall for TSM? 2) Why did PSU intentionally destroy Joe's reputation?

 

[Connorpozlee]

In general, I'm agreeing with you. However, I think what happened here speaks to PSU's refusal to defend Joe from day 1. They wouldn't let Joe have his press conference. They fired Spanier for defending C/S (and probably for being unwilling to fire Joe). They hired Louis Freeh to officially incriminate Joe and validate the BOT's actions.

After Joe's passing, talk of his role had subsided. People had generally calmed down as far as he was concerned. The Freeh report could have easily argued that Joe was barely involved and mostly kept in the dark, while still hammering C/S/S. That would have certainly been a more reasonable conclusion in light of what we know now. I believe PSU wanted sanctions and for those sanctions to be tied to Paterno. The rapid fire release of the Freeh report, the NCAA sanctions and the removal of the statue was orchestrated for shock and awe. It was at the heart of the BOT's "move on" strategy.

There has always been two separate scandals here. 1) Why did PSU take the fall for TSM? 2) Why did PSU intentionally destroy Joe's reputation?

Not to mention the one about Sandusky sexually assaulting boys.

 

[MtNittany]

Not to mention the one about Sandusky sexually assaulting boys.

I agree. The rest is kerfuffle. Which victim's stories do you believe the most (of the ones who showed up in court)?

 

[indynittany]

Not to mention the one about Sandusky sexually assaulting boys.

Well, that goes with the first one, to the extent it's true. But with respect to the two PSU related scandals I mentioned, Sandusky was merely a tool with which to destroy JVP.

Answer me this:

When PSU learned of inappropriate behavior between a former employee and a child with no ties to the university, those in authority took steps designed to prevent that behavior in the future.

When TSM learned of inappropriate behavior between a current employee and a child participant in TSM programs, those in authority took steps designed to allow that behavior to continue in the future.

Can you honestly tell me that Graham Spanier should go to jail, but Jack Raykovitz should not? Of the two, which endangered the welfare of a child? Who is the pedophile enabler?

The press is lazy, largely narcissistic and sanctimonious. It is almost entirely liberal. I think Joe represented a dinosaur to them, and one whose moral authority and traditional values they found offensive. I have nothing but contempt for the MSM.

However, PSU has always had it within its power to change the narrative. PSU could come out and say they rushed to judgment and got it wrong. The press would have had no choice but to give Joe the respect he deserved. That still holds true. What's keeping the BOT from doing so?

 

[Legion of Lions]

I don't necessarily buy into the corruption thing but some things are incredibly troublesome.

1. DPW/CPS failed to deal with JS yet they get off the hook.
2. TSM fails to address the issue. The charity went out of business but administrators got off the hook.
3. Surely JM and Dranov knew just as much as the PSU administrators but they got off the hook.
4. The PSU BOT got off the hook.

C/S/S handled things poorly but is there any doubt that they were used as scapegoats in this whole episode?

JVP wasn't used as a scapegoat by the legal system but he was definitely used as a scapegoat by the BOT and the media.

All of the "Story" that was constructed by the OAG and sold to the public in 2012 was based upon:
(1) Guilty until proven innocent - Speculation alone is evidence (...they must have known..." - Per Frank Noonan "...they only did the legal minimum...MORALLY they should have done more...")
(2) MM's testimony advised PSU officials in 2001 that Jerry was sexually molesting a "boy" because he was showering with him "alone" - No details of MM's testimony supports sexual molestation - WHY... at the time of the event MM did NOTHING. MM's testimony was not enough for the INITIAL PEOPLE WHO HEARD ABOUT THIS (Dad and Dranov) to suggest MM call the police! In fact...NO ONE who spoke to MM SUPPORTS ANYTHING MM has said in his testimonies taken in 2011+.
(3) TSM was the primary entity responsible for Sandusky's actions in 2001 and yet the State of PA promoted Penn State Universtity on the strength of MM's testimony that PSU was THE ONLY entity who "failed the children of PA". By this statement only, this "scandal" is exposed as a total fiction based upon what we know today!

KEY ISSUE.....The secret tip off that the "Story" was concocted by the OAG for its own purposes is how the State of PA and the PA courts treated TSM and how TSM & its officials have been rewarded by being totally out of the public "Story". In a fair and unbiased criminal investigation and trial, normal police work standard to any similar type case would not have ignored TSM, but would have identified TSM as the primary point of failure - and this approach of close public TSM investigation would be cretainly have happened based on the ASSUMPTION that MM's worst testimony is true - which it certainly is NOT!!

The Real Smoking Gun in this case....... Destroying the records of TSM after Sandusky was charged under the full knowledge of the State of PA and OAG is nothing but OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE. Just one of a number of legal abuses taken by the state of PA in this entire siyuation. Where are the charges and those charged with allowing this absurdity. Guess $650K to "Tommy Boy" is the going rate for protection in PA!!!

 

[Connorpozlee]

I agree. The rest is kerfuffle. Which victim's stories do you believe the most (of the ones who showed up in court)?

Honestly, I have no idea. I don’t do a good job of knowing victim 1 from victim 7 and Alan meyers and all the rest of it. Too much to keep track of.

 

[Osprey Lion]

Not to mention the one about Sandusky sexually assaulting boys.

Those other "scandals" only exist on this board.

 

[jim cummings]

People in this country today gladly give up their freedoms in order to appease some cause or virtue without even consideration. It's no longer "what I believe in" but rather "what would so and so think of me if I believed in that?"

Egg Zackly

 

[bdgan]

2) Why did PSU intentionally destroy Joe's reputation?

That's easy. Throwing Joe under the bus was the best was to take the attention off of themselves.

 

[Connorpozlee]

Well, that goes with the first one, to the extent it's true. But with respect to the two PSU related scandals I mentioned, Sandusky was merely a tool with which to destroy JVP.

Answer me this:

When PSU learned of inappropriate behavior between a former employee and a child with no ties to the university, those in authority took steps designed to prevent that behavior in the future.

When TSM learned of inappropriate behavior between a current employee and a child participant in TSM programs, those in authority took steps designed to allow that behavior to continue in the future.

Can you honestly tell me that Graham Spanier should go to jail, but Jack Raykovitz should not? Of the two, which endangered the welfare of a child? Who is the pedophile enabler?

The press is lazy, largely narcissistic and sanctimonious. It is almost entirely liberal. I think Joe represented a dinosaur to them, and one whose moral authority and traditional values they found offensive. I have nothing but contempt for the MSM.

However, PSU has always had it within its power to change the narrative. PSU could come out and say they rushed to judgment and got it wrong. The press would have had no choice but to give Joe the respect he deserved. That still holds true. What's keeping the BOT from doing so?

I’ll try to answer that. I believe the PSU folks handled it appropriately for the most. I’m still not convinced that Mike McQueary was clearly talking about sexual abuse. The actions of all in the aftermath point him not being clear about that.
However, if Courtney advised them to call social services then they screwed that up. Honestly, if they were asking a lawyer for advice about wether or not they should call social services then they probably should have just called.
My answer to all of your Second Mike questions is that I have no idea how they have skated through this all unscathed.

 

[pandaczar12]

However, if Courtney advised them to call social services then they screwed that up. Honestly, if they were asking a lawyer for advice about wether or not they should call social services then they probably should have just called.

There is pretty much no scenario where legal doesn't say that... it's a CYA move. If Courtney actually thought abuse had occurred... why didn't he call?

 

[LaJolla Lion]

There is pretty much no scenario where legal doesn't say that... it's a CYA move. If Courtney actually thought abuse had occurred... why didn't he call?

So yet again it’s everyone but them who had to call. That didn’t work out too well.

 

[marshall23]

There is pretty much no scenario where legal doesn't say that... it's a CYA move. If Courtney actually thought abuse had occurred... why didn't he call?

Schultz was an excellent administrator. I've never worked for an administrator that consulted counsel and then did not follow their advice. IMO Courtney is a shady character in this saga. He and Harmon got off without scrutiny. Please remember that Gary called WC BEFORE he spoke to MM. Sorry, I don't care what WC says......no way GS went against the advice of counsel (whatever that might have been.) If Courtney billed PSU for this....his file should have had intricate details. Funny we didn't see what the file contained.

 

[pandaczar12]

Schultz was an excellent administrator. I've never worked for an administrator that consulted counsel and then did not follow their advice. IMO Courtney is a shady character in this saga. He and Harmon got off without scrutiny. Please remember that Gary called WC BEFORE he spoke to MM. Sorry, I don't care what WC says......no way GS went against the advice of counsel (whatever that might have been.) If Courtney billed PSU for this....his file should have had intricate details. Funny we didn't see what the file contained.

I’m not ruling that out either, I’m open minded to all possibilities. The point was that if there was an incident worthy of calling the police, MM should have made that call... after his failure, no one else should be held responsible.... except for maybe JR. It’s impossible that the police needed to be called, and a half dozen people missed it, before the lawyer.

 

[marshall23]

I’m not ruling that out either, I’m open minded to all possibilities. The point was that if there was an incident worthy of calling the police, MM should have made that call... after his failure, no one else should be held responsible.... except for maybe JR. It’s impossible that the police needed to be called, and a half dozen people missed it, before the lawyer.

Bottom line, Mike was startled and suspicious of JS in the locker room... but he didn't see a damn thing.

 

[bdgan]

I’m not ruling that out either, I’m open minded to all possibilities. The point was that if there was an incident worthy of calling the police, MM should have made that call... after his failure, no one else should be held responsible.... except for maybe JR. It’s impossible that the police needed to be called, and a half dozen people missed it, before the lawyer.

Disagree. A lot of people had that responsibility IMO. Of course that all depends on what MM told them. I personally think MM told everybody that he was concerned about what he experienced but that he couldn't be sure it was anything sexual. I think based on that C&S took a more conservative approach.

In my experience the lawyer would tell his client to call authorities even if told it was just horsing around. Outside counsel is notorious for covering their butts.

 

[sarasotan]

Don't anybody give Wendell Courtney a pass. He never earned that. His wife Linette was on TSM's board for MANY years. I heard they moved away from SC, not sure if true.

 

[Connorpozlee]

So yet again it’s everyone but them who had to call. That didn’t work out too well.

A huge, huge issue with this whole thing is that it was investigated ten years after the fact. Hard for anybody to really recall with much accuracy exactly what happened ten years earlier.

 

[marshall23]

Don't anybody give Wendell Courtney a pass. He never earned that. His wife Linette was on TSM's board for MANY years. I heard they moved away from SC, not sure if true.

Yes and he denies acting as counsel for TSM.....lots of conflicts and then they flew the coop.

 

[indynittany]

So yet again it’s everyone but them who had to call. That didn’t work out too well.

Nobody had to call.

Why would JR suggest Jerry wear swim trunks in the shower?

Why would Bruce Heim risk his personal fortune by offering up the Hilton Garden Inn if anybody was concerned about Jerry?

Most importantly, why were they only concerned about what Jerry's future behavior should be? Should he continue bringing kids to PSU and wear swim trunks, or should he take them to the Hilton Garden Inn? What about what he had already done? Why weren't they worried about that? Why weren't they worried about Allen Meyers? He was one of their own. If a report was to be made, wasn't Jack Raykovitz the one to make it?

Why wasn't anybody worried about the boy? Why wasn't he even mentioned in passing in either the emails or Schultz's notes? Do you honestly think Tim Curley would downplay what McQueary reported to either Spanier or Raykovitz if a boy's safety was involved? Do you think Schultz would go along with giving Spanier incomplete information? What would be the point? And if they had, wouldn't Spanier have surely flipped on them?

None of which proves Jerry's innocence. It just means that not a single person Mike told thought Jerry had abused anyone that night. Would it have made any difference had PSU reported? Would it have made any difference had Jack reported? Without a victim or even an irate mom, I don't see how. Would children have been spared? There's certainly nothing to suggest that.

There was no case here. This incident had no business being the flagship case in the Sandusky saga. It was manufactured to entangle Penn State and Joe Paterno. We still don't know why! And we still don't know why Penn State was party to it!!

 

[pandaczar12]

Disagree. A lot of people had that responsibility IMO. Of course that all depends on what MM told them. I personally think MM told everybody that he was concerned about what he experienced but that he couldn't be sure it was anything sexual. I think based on that C&S took a more conservative approach.

Based on how everyone reacted, he didn't tell them very much, IMO. He turned it into an administrative matter, for PSU. When the report made it's way to TSM, they dropped the ball. The failures (to report the incident that the victim said nothing happened) occurred at the beginning and end of the chain.
​

In my experience the lawyer would tell his client to call authorities even if told it was just horsing around. Outside counsel is notorious for covering their butts.

Agreed, I said that in post #468.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Nobody had to call.

Why would JR suggest Jerry wear swim trunks in the shower?

Why would Bruce Heim risk his personal fortune by offering up the Hilton Garden Inn if anybody was concerned about Jerry?

Most importantly, why were they only concerned about what Jerry's future behavior should be? Should he continue bringing kids to PSU and wear swim trunks, or should he take them to the Hilton Garden Inn? What about what he had already done? Why weren't they worried about that? Why weren't they worried about Allen Meyers? He was one of their own. If a report was to be made, wasn't Jack Raykovitz the one to make it?

Why wasn't anybody worried about the boy? Why wasn't he even mentioned in passing in either the emails or Schultz's notes? Do you honestly think Tim Curley would downplay what McQueary reported to either Spanier or Raykovitz if a boy's safety was involved? Do you think Schultz would go along with giving Spanier incomplete information? What would be the point? And if they had, wouldn't Spanier have surely flipped on them?

None of which proves Jerry's innocence. It just means that not a single person Mike told thought Jerry had abused anyone that night. Would it have made any difference had PSU reported? Would it have made any difference had Jack reported? Without a victim or even an irate mom, I don't see how. Would children have been spared? There's certainly nothing to suggest that.

There was no case here. This incident had no business being the flagship case in the Sandusky saga. It was manufactured to entangle Penn State and Joe Paterno. We still don't know why! And we still don't know why Penn State was party to it!!

You’ve gotten more emphatic with your stories in the last few years. Again you point to every person but CSS who knew this was the second accusation and were advised to report it. Schultz’s notes were pretty clear about 98. Sorry you want to play dumb for him too. You can sell that BS on this site only and some will buy it, but that is about it. Yell Jack or anyone else all you want to, it’s apparently not happening there.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

A huge, huge issue with this whole thing is that it was investigated ten years after the fact. Hard for anybody to really recall with much accuracy exactly what happened ten years earlier.

Totally agree there. We’ll never get a truly 100% accurate account but i’m fine with Jerry sitting where he is as nothing has come up to say otherwise. You had JZ’s victim shaming, but that is about it. It does suck it turned into a witch hunt but had they simply made the call to cover their arses, it looks much different today IMO. Others will disagree, but i’m out of foil.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

At least this site permits both sides to express their opinions. Jive11 is now a mod over at TOOS, and over there it is his way or the highway.

Yes, you heard me right. Jive11 is now a mod.

 

[bdgan]

You’ve gotten more emphatic with your stories in the last few years. Again you point to every person but CSS who knew this was the second accusation and were advised to report it. You can sell that BS on this site and some will buy it, but that is about it.

I'm with Indy on this. Everything points to MM telling a soft story. JM, probably MM's mom, Dranov, Joe, C/S/S, Raykovitz, Heim, etc. all told consistent stories about what MM told them. It makes no sense to believe all but C/S/S were the only people he spilled his guts to.

That's not an excuse for their poor handling of the situation but blaming them (and Joe) but no others is not reasonable.