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Ref accountability

chrisrn1965

chrisrn1965

Well-Known Member
Nov 13, 2011
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I am relatively new to following wrestling so after yesterday's officiating debacle I am curious what system of accountability is in place for wrestling officials. Who assigns the refs? Are they conference-based like in football? What consequences are there for errors? I know it did not change the team outcome but Jimmy G. was robbed of a huge upset over the #1 wrestler that would have improved his post season seeds. We know what a joke BIG football refs are but this was just as bad.
 
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21Guns said:
This particular referee in question, has officiated 17 Big 12 Championship tournaments, and 0 Big Ten Championship tournaments.

Does that raise a red flag for you?
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Why would it? Does the B10 dip into other conferences' referee pools in any sports?
 
El-Jefe said:
Why would it? Does the B10 dip into other conferences' referee pools in any sports?
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Would be nice though in cross conference duals if one was from each conference.
We may even get some bonus wrestling between the officials.
 
The referee list contains name, email, and home city and state. No conference affiliation at all, and geography mostly determines who is called. There does seem to relationships, be they for a team or a conference, that develops over the years.

I understand there are ways for coaches to formally air concerns, and pretty sure those go to the Coordinator of Officials.
 
liex26 said:
Would be nice though in cross conference duals if one was from each conference.
We may even get some bonus wrestling between the officials.
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Well, OK, but (1) were both refs B12? Could the Missouri-based ref be MAC?
(EDIT: neither, according to Roar's post above.)

(2) The 2nd ref has limited responsibility regardless of which conference he's from. Still couldn't call Jimmy's pins.

Frankly, I don't mind this one bit for reasons I stated elsewhere: better to get used to it now than at the NCAA Tournament where stakes are higher.
 
The Pokes complained last year on Nico's pin. Maybe for an event like this.......if you are going to pair one v two, you get OOC refs. For the other matches, maybe you just go with who is close by.

I don't think nationals is quite the same because the crowd is not partisan like in Stillwater or State College. That said the NCAA should be working to improve the consistency and competence of the officials. Ok, I typed it but I don't really believe that last part since it would cost money and improve the integrity of the sport. The NCAA is about bring money in and providing the illusion of integrity. Carry on.
 
SRATH said:
The Pokes complained last year on Nico's pin. Maybe for an event like this.......if you are going to pair one v two, you get OOC refs. For the other matches, maybe you just go with who is close by.

I don't think nationals is quite the same because the crowd is not partisan like in Stillwater or State College. That said the NCAA should be working to improve the consistency and competence of the officials. Ok, I typed it but I don't really believe that last part since it would cost money and improve the integrity of the sport. The NCAA is about bring money in and providing the illusion of integrity. Carry on.
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I'd agree with you about the crowd being more split at nationals ... except by far the worst officiating I've seen in ages was at Rio, which doesn't exactly have a great hometown team.
 
El-Jefe said:
Well, OK, but (1) were both refs B12? Could the Missouri-based ref be MAC?
(EDIT: neither, according to Roar's post above.)

(2) The 2nd ref has limited responsibility regardless of which conference he's from. Still couldn't call Jimmy's pins.

Frankly, I don't mind this one bit for reasons I stated elsewhere: better to get used to it now than at the NCAA Tournament where stakes are higher.
Click to expand...

Don't think refs technically have conference affiliation in wrestling - is is a "national certification" and pool, BUT just because all refs are on the elligible poll, doesn't mean that conferences use them equally. For instance, the ref in question, Mike Hagerty, has officiated 16 B12 Championships (this year will make it 17)) and has never done a B1G Tournament.....I suspect the numbers would be even more lopsided if you looked at duals.

In any event, there were many aspects of his interpretation in the JG-Heil match that are objectionable - chief among them was his refusal to call the TD for JG and start the NF count (and the subsequent pin) the first time the situation happened at the end of the 2nd Period. How precisely was Heil's crotch-lock preventing "control" AFTER Jimmy had clear contol of both of Heil's legs and had him firmly stuck to the mat with his upper body??? The only thing Heil's continued crotch-lift was doing was pinning himself!!! But yet the Official absurdly continued to encourage him to pin himself as a supposed means of preventing "control"??? All this did was encourage Heil to do the exact same absurd thing in the 3rd Period as a means to avoid losing the match - i.e., "pinning himself" to avoid losing??? Huh??? WTF??? This is the type of bull$hit that makes world-class wrestlers laugh at Folkstyle wrestling and the absurd bull$hit that biased Folk refs use to contort the true rules in favor of "their guy".

The situation was no different than a situation where one wrestler has a "crotch-lock" on the other to prevent control while the wrestlers are parallel to one another, but then the other wrestlers continues to work around to where he has both legs of the wrestler who is sitting on their butt, is straddling the legs in front of the seated wrestler and the wrestler still has the crotch-lock on -- it is a TD once the wrestler has worked all the way arong has full control of both legs and is straddling the seated wrestler. Heil was not preventing "control" at the end of those sequences once Jimmy had worked his way up, had full control of both of Heil's legs and was in a semi-Peterson Position on top of Heil's upper-body. The ONLY THING Heil's crotch-lift was doing at that point was literally pinning himself and the freaking joke official rewarded that bull$hit as a "smart" defensive move?!?! Complete joke and butchering of actual wrestling rules, the "spirit of wrestling rules", the "intent" of wrestling rules, etc...
 
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I don't know how the Ref could miss this.
16649007_10113034699065474_3442967644531361289_n.jpg
 
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Nitt Fan said:
I don't know how the Ref could miss this.
16649007_10113034699065474_3442967644531361289_n.jpg
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Screen shots don't necessarily tell the whole story. Rule book excerpt below. I saw a lot of rolling, and have yet to see a definitive video.

2.13 Fall Any part of both shoulders or part of both scapulae (For pinning area, see Illustration No. 2.) of either wrestler held in contact with the mat for one second constitutes a fall. The one-second count (one-thousand-one) shall be a silent count by the referee and shall start only after the referee is in position to observe that a fall is imminent, after which the shoulders or scapulae area must be held in continuous contact with the mat for one second before a fall is awarded.
 
CowboyUp61 said:
Screen shots don't necessarily tell the whole story. Rule book excerpt below. I saw a lot of rolling, and have yet to see a definitive video.

2.13 Fall Any part of both shoulders or part of both scapulae (For pinning area, see Illustration No. 2.) of either wrestler held in contact with the mat for one second constitutes a fall. The one-second count (one-thousand-one) shall be a silent count by the referee and shall start only after the referee is in position to observe that a fall is imminent, after which the shoulders or scapulae area must be held in continuous contact with the mat for one second before a fall is awarded.
Click to expand...

Go to this thread. A video is there for you to take a look at. Please respond after viewing the footage. I'm curious what you think.


https://bwi.forums.rivals.com/threa...where-but-heil-was-pinned-three-times.167604/
 
CowboyUp61 said:
Screen shots don't necessarily tell the whole story. Rule book excerpt below. I saw a lot of rolling, and have yet to see a definitive video.

2.13 Fall Any part of both shoulders or part of both scapulae (For pinning area, see Illustration No. 2.) of either wrestler held in contact with the mat for one second constitutes a fall. The one-second count (one-thousand-one) shall be a silent count by the referee and shall start only after the referee is in position to observe that a fall is imminent, after which the shoulders or scapulae area must be held in continuous contact with the mat for one second before a fall is awarded.
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i am shocked, shocked i say, that you would think all three calls were spot on :eek:.
 
CowboyUp61 said:
Nope, still never saw a fall. Freestyle roll-through fall yes, not by NCAA definition
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Roll through? Are you being serious? From start of video ( :12) till the :8 second mark he's flat as a pancake. Is that really what we consider rolling through to avoid a fall in folk style? I'm seriously out of the loop then....
 
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johnstownsteel said:
Roll through? Are you being serious? From start of video :)12) till the :8 second mark he's flat as a pancake. Is that really what we consider rolling through to avoid a fall in folk style? I'm seriously out of the loop then....
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There was not one single "roll through" at all, lmao.

He was pinned. Three times. Period.
 
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johnstownsteel said:
If that's not a fall then let's face it, a pin should probably be a very very rare occurrence in folk style wrestling. Bo Nickals fall? Nope... didn't happen....
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actually thought Boyd was pinned before Mike called it. I try to be at least somewhat objective, though. Old habits die hard,
 
CowboyUp61 said:
nope-still disagree :cool:
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well alrighty then....

Arguing this will obviously get us nowhere. You and I are not even in the same ballpark when it comes to determining what is or isn't a fall. Anyway, I'm still waiting to see if a statement is released explaining whether it was or wasn't the correct call and why. If they determine it was the correct call then I will gladly apologize and I will never ever dispute a call again....anytime anywhere because I'll certainly realize right then and there I have no business watching this sport.
 
johnstownsteel said:
Roll through? Are you being serious? From start of video ( :12) till the :8 second mark he's flat as a pancake. Is that really what we consider rolling through to avoid a fall in folk style? I'm seriously out of the loop then....
Click to expand...

in oklahoma the term roll-through is relative i.e. togs angels
 
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CowboyUp61 said:
Nope, still never saw a fall. Freestyle roll-through fall yes, not by NCAA definition
Click to expand...

"Roll-through" that's frigging hillarious - Jimmy had Heil on his back for a minute or better to close out the 2nd and 3rd periods. If you think either of those situations qualified as a "roll-through", you are as delusional as Heil who effectively said - I let him pin me so I could win the match? Huh? Give me a break, everybody who knows squat about wrestling in that gym, including Heil, the official and Smith know that Gulibon won that match.....not once, but multiple times!!!
 
don't know if this info has been shared but I found this interesting regarding the ref for yesterday's OSU match.. He was recognized as one of 8 2017 inductees into the Wrestling Hall of Fame ( in Stillwater OK) for outstanding service as a referee, judge, or pairing official.

Mike Hagerty has 25 years of experience as an NCAA Division I official and has worked the NCAA Division I Championships from 2003 to present, including 11 finals matches. He has officiated 14 NCAA Division II Championships and has served as the head official four times. Hagerty has refereed 16 Big 12 Championships and seven Pac-12 Championships while also officiating two National Wrestling Coaches Association All-Star matches. He has also worked two NAIA Championships and has officiated NCAA Division III Championships. Hagerty founded the Inter-Collegiate Wrestling Officials Association in 2015 and continues to serve as Executive Director. He was president of the NCAA National Wrestling Coaches Association in 1989 and was a member of the Board of Directors from 1996-2001. Hagerty works as a coach for USA Wrestling and was an Olympic Team Camp coach in 2012 and 2016. He has been a USA World Team coach six times. He recently coached the United States World University Team, which won the first USA University World Championships in 2015. Hagerty has been named USA Wrestling Developmental Coach of the Year twice and was chairperson of Missouri USA Wrestling from 1983-89. He coached Central Missouri for seven seasons and had two national champions, 10 All-Americans and 25 national qualifiers while being named Midwest Regional Coach of the Year twice. Hagerty has been coaching at Blue Springs High School in Blue Springs, Missouri, for the past 24 years. He has coached the team to three state championships and seven other Top Three finishes while being named Missouri Coach of the Year five times. He wrestled at Higginsville High School in Higginsville, Missouri, where he was 87-6-1 and was a Scholastic Wrestling News Honorable Mention All-American. Hagerty qualified for the NCAA Division II Championships at Central Missouri State University where he was a Missouri Intercollegiate Athletic Association champion as well as team captain and Outstanding Wrestler. Hagerty is also a member of the Missouri Wrestling Association Hall of Fame and the Missouri USA Wrestling Hall of Fame. Hagerty was inducted into the Central Missouri Hall of Fame in 2015 and is also a member of the Central Missouri Hall of Legends. Hagerty’s son, Keenan, was a state champion for Blue Springs and a three-time All-American at Maryville University.

Wouldn't it be enlightening for Mr. Hagerty to share with all his official interpetation of the rules together with match photos which lead to his decision not to call a pin in the Gulibon-Heil match.
 
gymdad said:
don't know if this info has been shared but I found this interesting regarding the ref for yesterday's OSU match.. He was recognized as one of 8 2017 inductees into the Wrestling Hall of Fame ( in Stillwater OK) for outstanding service as a referee, judge, or pairing official.

Mike Hagerty has 25 years of experience as an NCAA Division I official and has worked the NCAA Division I Championships from 2003 to present, including 11 finals matches. He has officiated 14 NCAA Division II Championships and has served as the head official four times. Hagerty has refereed 16 Big 12 Championships and seven Pac-12 Championships while also officiating two National Wrestling Coaches Association All-Star matches. He has also worked two NAIA Championships and has officiated NCAA Division III Championships. Hagerty founded the Inter-Collegiate Wrestling Officials Association in 2015 and continues to serve as Executive Director. He was president of the NCAA National Wrestling Coaches Association in 1989 and was a member of the Board of Directors from 1996-2001. Hagerty works as a coach for USA Wrestling and was an Olympic Team Camp coach in 2012 and 2016. He has been a USA World Team coach six times. He recently coached the United States World University Team, which won the first USA University World Championships in 2015. Hagerty has been named USA Wrestling Developmental Coach of the Year twice and was chairperson of Missouri USA Wrestling from 1983-89. He coached Central Missouri for seven seasons and had two national champions, 10 All-Americans and 25 national qualifiers while being named Midwest Regional Coach of the Year twice. Hagerty has been coaching at Blue Springs High School in Blue Springs, Missouri, for the past 24 years. He has coached the team to three state championships and seven other Top Three finishes while being named Missouri Coach of the Year five times. He wrestled at Higginsville High School in Higginsville, Missouri, where he was 87-6-1 and was a Scholastic Wrestling News Honorable Mention All-American. Hagerty qualified for the NCAA Division II Championships at Central Missouri State University where he was a Missouri Intercollegiate Athletic Association champion as well as team captain and Outstanding Wrestler. Hagerty is also a member of the Missouri Wrestling Association Hall of Fame and the Missouri USA Wrestling Hall of Fame. Hagerty was inducted into the Central Missouri Hall of Fame in 2015 and is also a member of the Central Missouri Hall of Legends. Hagerty’s son, Keenan, was a state champion for Blue Springs and a three-time All-American at Maryville University.

Wouldn't it be enlightening for Mr. Hagerty to share with all his official interpetation of the rules together with match photos which lead to his decision not to call a pin in the Gulibon-Heil match.
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If the sport thinks enough of Hagerty to induct him into its Hall of Fame then they owe it to the fans to have him explain to us why there was no call. He's a Hall of Famer for christs sakes ...we want to know what a Hall of Famer sees there, what the rest of us missed and why he's worthy to be in the Hall of Fame while the rest of us are too stupid when it comes to the rule book and will never ever be considered for such an honor.
 
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We'll see what matches he works in St. Louis this year. They are graded like everyone else, and that was the worst officiated match of the season, by a country mile.
 
Franklin_Restores_TheTradition said:
"Roll-through" that's frigging hillarious - Jimmy had Heil on his back for a minute or better to close out the 2nd and 3rd periods. If you think either of those situations qualified as a "roll-through", you are as delusional as Heil who effectively said - I let him pin me so I could win the match? Huh? Give me a break, everybody who knows squat about wrestling in that gym, including Heil, the official and Smith know that Gulibon won that match.....not once, but multiple times!!!
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yep, several times he rolled across his back from one side to the other, and then flat to not flat. Didnt meet the criteria fro a fall according to the rules code the match was wrestled under.
 
CowboyUp61 said:
yep, several times he rolled across his back from one side to the other, and then flat to not flat. Didnt meet the criteria fro a fall according to the rules code the match was wrestled under.
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Ummmmm, no....it not only met "the criteria", it met it multiple times in both the 2nd & 3rd periods.
 
I guess then we disagree. I am sure it isn't the first, or the last, time it has happened. Different colored glasses, I guess. I am sure we both know less than the man who made the call.
 
CowboyUp61 said:
Nope, still never saw a fall. Freestyle roll-through fall yes, not by NCAA definition
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It's the shoulder BLADES not the shoulders.....HE WAS PINNED 3 TIMES....He did not want to hit the mat on a returning champ....That is the BOTTOM line....BS....Jimmy will get him...I pray he tries to hold on like that at Nationals...If you have never been there they call pins quick no matter who you are....Jimmy can't wait to wrestle him again already from what he was saying after the match....Jimmy will either major him or pin him....Hope Hail does the same thing.... He will be working hard with Frank in the room and many others....
 
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spyker said:
It's the shoulder BLADES not the shoulders.....HE WAS PINNED 3 TIMES....He did not want to hit the mat on a returning champ....That is the BOTTOM line....BS
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Spyker, ole boy, I quoted the rule. Well aware of what it is. The bottom line is, although we disagree, it was not a fall. NEVER IS UNLESS THE MAT IS SLAPPED! I have watched it live, and on video, and I haven't seen him held for a second. Doesn't mean at a different angle he wasn't, just means nothing I have seen confirms it. So, I choose to believe in the integrity of the official, who is one of the best in the business.
 
CowboyUp61 said:
I guess then we disagree. I am sure it isn't the first, or the last, time it has happened. Different colored glasses, I guess. I am sure we both know less than the man who made the call.
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That's all I'd like....an explanation from the man himself. If I'm wrong, I want to know why I'm wrong. I guess neither the NCAA nor Hagerty owe the fans anything so there's that....
 
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The ref applied the stalling rules incorrectly. No reason to think he didn't know pin rules.
 
johnstownsteel said:
That's all I'd like....an explanation from the man himself. If I'm wrong, I want to know why I'm wrong. I guess neither the NCAA nor Hagerty owe the fans anything so there's that....
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They have done it several times in football, if I am remembering correctly. Hopefully they will on this at some point.
 
CowboyUp61 said:
They have done it several times in football, if I am remembering correctly. Hopefully they will on this at some point.
Click to expand...

I hope he does explain his no call in reality. I was thinking to myself how many other ref's watching this match are now questioning themselves are they calling their matches correct. As well as coaches would like to know so they can coach their wrestlers accordingly to this rule. I think he had a bad day personally. He is one of the most respected ref's out there and just was off yesterday. Happens to everyone. I look at the pics from numerous angles and his shoulder blades were flat on the mat 2 different times. First time some what questionable the second time was an easy call and Hagerty was their kneeling looking at it. I think it actually caught him by surprise that Jimmy had him stuck, and he wasn't ready for it and missed the call. His stalling call's on Zain were also off and left many scratching their head's on that call as well. I still consider him 1 of the top ref's though in wrestling.
 
I hope Jimmy is working on how to finish that shot when Heil locks around the crotch. Screw trying to pin him and take the takedown. Jimmy wins if he focuses on clearing his head from Heil's leg in that 3rd period. Head outside the legs with both arms wrapped around Heil and he gets 2 every time.
 
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