Ref accountability

[Tom McAndrew]

The referee list contains name, email, and home city and state. No conference affiliation at all, and geography mostly determines who is called. There does seem to relationships, be they for a team or a conference, that develops over the years.

I understand there are ways for coaches to formally air concerns, and pretty sure those go to the Coordinator of Officials.

There's been a lot of false claims about Mike Hagerty, or how refs get assigned. I knew a lot of how the assigning operated, but I decided to get clarification on those points that I wasn't certain of.

While I'm replying to Roar's post, he's actually mostly correct. I'm using his post to build upon, and to correct a number of the mistakes I've seen concerning the ref at the Ok. St. dual and how refs get assigned.

Each conference contracts with a ref assignor. The contract provides that the assignor gets paid for each dual for which he assigns, and also provides that the assignor will assign refs to each dual.

College refs can work with multiple assignors, and many of them do. However, they generally assign the same core group of refs to league matches (and hence why most B1G fans start to recognize the refs that work their duals).

As Oklahoma State was the home team, the Big 12 assignor is the individual that assigned the refs for the PSU - Ok. St. dual.

While college reffing pays a decent amount per match, it's not enough to make a living. As such, while refs are free to align with any assignor they want, most try to work with assignors that assign in the general area in which they live.

So it should surprise nobody that Mike Hagerty, who is an excellent ref who lives in Missouri, and is part of the Big 12 assignor's pod, was assigned to be the lead ref in the PSU - Ok. St. dual. In addition, it should not be a surprise that he's worked quite a few Big 12 tournaments.

If either team had issues with the reffing, they would have submitted a report to the assignor, as well as to the Coordinator of Officials.

I should also note that NCAAs are not assigned by a assignor affiliated with the host school. The assignment process for NCAAs is much different.

 

[chrisrn1965]

There's been a lot of false claims about Mike Hagerty, or how refs get assigned. I knew a lot of how the assigning operated, but I decided to get clarification on those points that I wasn't certain of.

While I'm replying to Roar's post, he's actually mostly correct. I'm using his post to build upon, and to correct a number of the mistakes I've seen concerning the ref at the Ok. St. dual and how refs get assigned.

Each conference contracts with a ref assignor. The contract provides that the assignor gets paid for each dual for which he assigns, and also provides that the assignor will assign refs to each dual.

College refs can work with multiple assignors, and many of them do. However, they generally assign the same core group of refs to league matches (and hence why most B1G fans start to recognize the refs that work their duals).

As Oklahoma State was the home team, the Big 12 assignor is the individual that assigned the refs for the PSU - Ok. St. dual.

While college reffing pays a decent amount per match, it's not enough to make a living. As such, while refs are free to align with any assignor they want, most try to work with assignors that assign in the general area in which they live.

So it should surprise nobody that Mike Hagerty, who is an excellent ref who lives in Missouri, and is part of the Big 12 assignor's pod, was assigned to be the lead ref in the PSU - Ok. St. dual. In addition, it should not be a surprise that he's worked quite a few Big 12 tournaments.

If either team had issues with the reffing, they would have submitted a report to the assignor, as well as to the Coordinator of Officials.

I should also note that NCAAs are not assigned by a assignor affiliated with the host school. The assignment process for NCAAs is much different.

Tom:

Thanks for the clarification. I assume by now Cael et al. have had a chance to review the film on both the Heil no-pin call and the Zain stall calls. I assume that if they believe these calls were wrong that will submit the report to the assignor and coordinator of officials. I am sure that this is not acknowledged publicly by either the coach filing the complaint or the administrators receiving the complaint. Are you aware of any situations in which someone responsible for officiating has either admitted that a call was wrong or issued a clarification on why a call was correct in a situation like this?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Callthestall]

I watched 3 different video angles , the one that is still posted, the OSU feed, and a camera just above the mat. The least conclusive is the one still posted, which I think still calls for a pin. In the OSU feed their announcer thought he was pinned. The best and most conclusive video was the from the camera on the level of the mat. It was definitive. The ref didn't want to bang a national champ.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Are you aware of any situations in which someone responsible for officiating has either admitted that a call was wrong or issued a clarification on why a call was correct in a situation like this?

I'm not aware of anything like that in wrestling at the college level.

Refs do not publicly discuss these type of issues. It's a no-win situation for them.

A few years ago, the ref at the PSU - Minny dual made a incorrect call against Beitz. I believe Minny won the dual by 1 point, so the incorrect call could have been pretty significant. As best as I can recall, Jason Bryant gave the ref a ride to the airport, and the two did discuss the call. Jason posted about it on some message board (I really can't recall which one).

There was also the situation at NCAAs, two years ago I believe, where the scoreboard showed the wrong score, and the wrong wrestlers hand was raised at the end of the match. SHP probably can provide more details, but I seem to recall that the only comment on it were made by the committee to which an appeal was made. I don't recall any comments from the ref or those working the table.

 

[bwifan]

Here is another angle with Hagerty looking right at it...

 

[21Guns]

"Respected" or not respected, he blew two pin calls and screwed a wrestler with two bogus stall calls that have never been called stalling, ever, before or after.

And if you watch the Oklahoma State feed, you can clearly hear BOTH Psu people AND Cowboy fans, calling it a pin. Not to mention the oklahoma state play by play announcer.

Need more? Take a look at Cael Sanderson and the Penn State bench: In the 7 plus years Cael has been here, I've never seen him angry like that. He'll take the high road of course because he has class, and won't address it again, but everyone knows he blew it that day.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Here is another angle with Hagerty looking right at it...

View embedded media

It is also a clear TD - Jimmy clearly has control of both legs, his head & entire upper-body are free as well above Heil's waist AND MOST IMPORTANTLY Heil is completely controlled and his crotch-lock / crotch-lift is doing nothing to improve his position (quite the diametric opposite it is only serving to pin himself!!!) That is 2 points, NF count begins and fall should have been called.

See following hotlink: HIT THIS LINK and refer to picture #19. BTW, pictures #22 and #23 demonstrate why Hall's winning TD was called (someone else has asked about it in another thread).

 

[dsites52]

There was also the situation at NCAAs, two years ago I believe, where the scoreboard showed the wrong score, and the wrong wrestlers hand was raised at the end of the match...

That was the Ian Miller/ Brian Realbuto semi-final. Miller's coaches tried to protest but there was something about them not waiving the challenge flag, it was bizzare.

 

[nitlion6]

They simply did not add the scores correctly. The gave Realbuto 2 takedowns without giving Miller the escape.
At the scorer's table the Kent State coaches were explaining where the mistake was made and the idiot officials told them to shut up and go sit down. "We are perfectly capable of counting!"

Turns out they were not capable of counting. Score was deemed correct and an exhausted Miller was taken down again by Realbuto. Match over. Scoring summary sheet turned in. Done deal. Afterwards, with a audit the mistake was found, but by rule once the wrestlers have left the wrestling area and the match sheet is turned in no appeal is allowed. Screwed and screwed.

 

[CowboyUp61]

Here is another angle with Hagerty looking right at it...

View embedded media

If you can see the whole singlet strap, it seems pretty obvious that the scapulae are not down, right? But if that's what you guys call a pin, no wonder you were disappointed.

 

[Bob_Anderson]

If you can see the whole singlet strap, it seems pretty obvious that the scapulae are not down, right? But if that's what you guys call a pin, no wonder you were disappointed.

You seem like a really good guy, but I'm starting to think you need a lesson in anatomy.

 

[minnhawkeye]

Mike Hagerty, should not be allowed to ref any Okl.State matches in my opinion.
Especially NCAA if it is in Okl.City. I witnessed the fall that Churrlea (sp) had over Johnny H. and not called..
Also in the semi final Evans had Perry pinned and not called and now my gosh he missed at least twice that Jimmy had the pin..Don't know how Hagerty gets that high ranking.

 

[RoarLions1]

If you can see the whole singlet strap, it seems pretty obvious that the scapulae are not down, right? But if that's what you guys call a pin, no wonder you were disappointed.

You do know this is a Penn State board, right?

 

[CowboyUp61]

You do know this is a Penn State board, right?

yes sir. And generally agree with most of you, on most topics. Just yet to see any convincing evidence that was a fall. This last pic is less convincing than the other.

I fully admitted we got our butts kicked. Would have been close to my 30-8 prediction if Suriano wouldn't have gotten hurt.

I have been around a long time. My HS coach started us refereeing when still in HS so he had a free supply for kids tourneys. Kept with it for 25 years, until the 16th knee surgery, and didn't feel like I could do the job the way the wrestlers deserved it to be done. Got a lot of mat time at a lot of levels in those years.

I think I can say, with my experience, that Mr. Hagerty is one of the best out there. I know him to speak to from working some of the same events, and I have never seen anyone question his integrity, and he doesn't deserve that in any way. None of the photos, or videos, have convinced me he was wrong in the two instances I have argued, and I have watched them several times.

Am I maybe a little too defensive? Heck, probably. Are the fans saying he was pinned 3 times going a little overboard? Again, probably. I tried to state the way I saw it respectfully, and we disagree. Not the first, not the last time, I am sure. I thought Jimmy, and Collica, both wrestled smart tactical matches in their losses, and think it denigrates their efforts blaming it on the referee.

I have never said that he wasn't pinned, just that none of the video (and especially photos) gives enough evidence to convince me he was. Another angle may change that, if it comes to light. Then I would admit it and give up the fight!

 

[bwifan]

yes sir. And generally agree with most of you, on most topics. Just yet to see any convincing evidence that was a fall. This last pic is less convincing than the other.

I fully admitted we got our butts kicked. Would have been close to my 30-8 prediction if Suriano wouldn't have gotten hurt.

I have been around a long time. My HS coach started us refereeing when still in HS so he had a free supply for kids tourneys. Kept with it for 25 years, until the 16th knee surgery, and didn't feel like I could do the job the way the wrestlers deserved it to be done. Got a lot of mat time at a lot of levels in those years.

I think I can say, with my experience, that Mr. Hagerty is one of the best out there. I know him to speak to from working some of the same events, and I have never seen anyone question his integrity, and he doesn't deserve that in any way. None of the photos, or videos, have convinced me he was wrong in the two instances I have argued, and I have watched them several times.

Am I maybe a little too defensive? Heck, probably. Are the fans saying he was pinned 3 times going a little overboard? Again, probably. I tried to state the way I saw it respectfully, and we disagree. Not the first, not the last time, I am sure. I thought Jimmy, and Collica, both wrestled smart tactical matches in their losses, and think it denigrates their efforts blaming it on the referee.

I have never said that he wasn't pinned, just that none of the video (and especially photos) gives enough evidence to convince me he was. Another angle may change that, if it comes to light. Then I would admit it and give up the fight!

Yes we will disagree. How you can look at the 1st photo and say that is not a pin and both his blades on the mat I am not sure... short of the american indian pin of putting your knees on his shoulders before a scalping not sure how you can get the shoulder blades anymore flat on the mat. So we will disagree totally on this and as you say won't be first time or last. Heck even mostt OSU fans are saying he was stuck. Believe even the OSU announcers thought it was a pin. But it's in the eye of the beholder, so on everyone marches to the NCAA's....

 

[CowboyUp61]

Yes we will disagree. How you can look at the 1st photo and say that is not a pin and both his blades on the mat I am not sure... short of the american indian pin of putting your knees on his shoulders before a scalping not sure how you can get the shoulder blades anymore flat on the mat. So we will disagree totally on this and as you say won't be first time or last. Heck even mostt OSU fans are saying he was stuck. Believe even the OSU announcers thought it was a pin. But it's in the eye of the beholder, so on everyone marches to the NCAA's....

BWI, if that angle had video and I could count while it rolled, it might be a moot point. But I haven't seen that video yet. And if I saw it, I would probably say "yep, thats a fall". But I haven't.

I can tell you from experience in that first picture, Hagerty is most likely looking at the grip on the instep and the position of leverage against the knee to make sure it doesn't become dangerous, not at the shoulders. When he realized Heil was in danger, he went down to the mat, and by that time Heil had rolled through/off his blades. Slow? Maybe, but proper position and instincts.

I won't convince you, and that's all right. Different opinions make the world go round!

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

yes sir. And generally agree with most of you, on most topics. Just yet to see any convincing evidence that was a fall. This last pic is less convincing than the other.

I fully admitted we got our butts kicked. Would have been close to my 30-8 prediction if Suriano wouldn't have gotten hurt.

I have been around a long time. My HS coach started us refereeing when still in HS so he had a free supply for kids tourneys. Kept with it for 25 years, until the 16th knee surgery, and didn't feel like I could do the job the way the wrestlers deserved it to be done. Got a lot of mat time at a lot of levels in those years.

I think I can say, with my experience, that Mr. Hagerty is one of the best out there. I know him to speak to from working some of the same events, and I have never seen anyone question his integrity, and he doesn't deserve that in any way. None of the photos, or videos, have convinced me he was wrong in the two instances I have argued, and I have watched them several times.

Am I maybe a little too defensive? Heck, probably. Are the fans saying he was pinned 3 times going a little overboard? Again, probably. I tried to state the way I saw it respectfully, and we disagree. Not the first, not the last time, I am sure. I thought Jimmy, and Collica, both wrestled smart tactical matches in their losses, and think it denigrates their efforts blaming it on the referee.

I have never said that he wasn't pinned, just that none of the video (and especially photos) gives enough evidence to convince me he was. Another angle may change that, if it comes to light. Then I would admit it and give up the fight!

You are also implicitly attempting to claim that a crotch-lock "stalemates" a TD in that position, which is absolutely wrong as this pictorial instuctional manual on Rule Interpretations makes quite clear (HIT THIS LINK refer to picture and situation #19). BTW, the specific reason Heil didn't let go of the crotch-lock and attempt to belly-out (which all wrestlers do once the TD is called) is because of the actions of Hagerty - specifically that Heil's crotch-lock was "stalemating" the TD, which it absolutely was not under the CORRECT INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES. IOW, had Hagerty applied the "control" rules correctly once JG had clear control of both legs, his entire body above Heil's waist and was holding Heil in a clear Pinning Position (i.e., an offensive stack), he would have awarded JG the TD, Heil would have properly been facing NF exposure and Heil therefore would have released his nonsensical crotch-lock which was only serving to "tighten" JG "Pinning Hold" and was NOT improving Heil's position whatsoever (the DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE was the case - Heil was flattening himself further and pinning himself the harder he pulled on his crotch-lift!).

 

[CowboyUp61]

You are also implicitly attempting to claim that a crotch-lock "stalemates" a TD in that position, which is absolutely wrong as this pictorial instuctional manual on Rule Interpretations makes quite clear (HIT THIS LINK refer to picture and situation #19). BTW, the specific reason Heil didn't let go of the crotch-lock and attempt to belly-out (which all wrestlers do once the TD is called) is because of the actions of Hagerty - specifically that Heil's crotch-lock was "stalemating" the TD, which it absolutely was not under the CORRECT INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES. IOW, had Hagerty applied the "control" rules correctly once JG had clear control of both legs, his entire body above Heil's waist and was holding Heil in a clear Pinning Position (i.e., an offensive stack), he would have awarded JG the TD, Heil would have properly been facing NF exposure and Heil therefore would have released his nonsensical crotch-lock which was only serving to "tighten" JG "Pinning Hold" and was NOT improving Heil's position whatsoever (the DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE was the case - Heil was flattening himself further and pinning himself the harder he pulled on his crotch-lift!).

WTF are you talking about? I haven't said a word about a takedown, or stalemate. And if you are going to link a rules picture, could you at least get the correct one? I don't think the NFHS rules apply in this instance.

In addition, the picture linked is not the same. When did Jimmy's shoulder come out on top and his hands come back to the hips? Have to go back and watch, but don't remember that.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

How you can look at the 1st photo and say that is not a pin and both his blades on the mat I am not sure...

BWI, if that angle had video and I could count while it rolled, it might be a moot point. But I haven't seen that video yet. And if I saw it, I would probably say "yep, thats a fall". But I haven't.

bwifan, CowboyUp is correct in this instance. A still photo proves nothing. Still photos in the middle of rolls could be used as evidence of a pin when that's not even close to being accurate.

The still photo you've posted is a great angle. If there were video from that angle, it would enable other refs to offer their opinion on whether or not Hagerty missed a pin.

The Flo video, and the short video clip that was posted on Sunday, show that Heil was close to getting pinned, but don't show conclusively that Jimmy should have gotten the fall.

 

[wrestlinPSU]

bwifan, CowboyUp is correct in this instance. A still photo proves nothing. Still photos in the middle of rolls could be used as evidence of a pin when that's not even close to being accurate.

The still photo you've posted is a great angle. If there were video from that angle, it would enable other refs to offer their opinion on whether or not Hagerty missed a pin.

The Flo video, and the short video clip that was posted on Sunday, show that Heil was close to getting pinned, but don't show conclusively that Jimmy should have gotten the fall.

You mean don't show conclusively that Jimmy should have gotten the fall at OSU by a BIG12 ref. In my opinion, he was pinned. No doubt.

 

[pennstatepelly]

If you can see the whole singlet strap, it seems pretty obvious that the scapulae are not down, right? But if that's what you guys call a pin, no wonder you were disappointed.

Disappointed? Not really. We beat your ass in your house, with a record crowd, and a blind ref. He missed the call. You can run your mouth all you want, but he missed it.

 

[CowboyUp61]

Disappointed? Not really. We beat your ass in your house, with a record crowd, and a blind ref. He missed the call. You can run your mouth all you want, but he missed it.

Wow, an intelligent answer. I can rest now!

Oops, sorry Mr. Tom, I forgot my smiley.

 

[raslen007]

Disappointed? Not really. We beat your ass in your house, with a record crowd, and a blind ref. He missed the call. You can run your mouth all you want, but he missed it.

Don't think Cowboy is running his mouth, just discussing the issue back & forth respectfully.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

You mean don't show conclusively that Jimmy should have gotten the fall at OSU by a BIG12 ref.

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. A still photo proves nothing. I gave the example of photo taken in the middle of a roll. I could also include that a still photo does not show if pinning criteria is held for one second, which is the requirement for a pin.

Also, in an earlier post I discussed how refs are assigned in college. There is no such thing as a Big 12 wrestling ref. There is a referee assignor that who signs an agreement with the Big 12 to assign refs to their duals and their conference tournament. The refs are independent contractors, and don't work for the league.

In my opinion, he was pinned. No doubt.

You may be correct that Heil was pinned.

At the same time, consider the fact that I've discussed the match with several college refs, who have reviewed the video that is available, and not one of them has felt that the video provided clear evidence that Heil was pinned. Again, that doesn't mean that Heil wasn't pinned -- it simply means that nobody has posted video that shows clearly that he was pinned.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

WTF are you talking about? I haven't said a word about a takedown, or stalemate. And if you are going to link a rules picture, could you at least get the correct one? I don't think the NFHS rules apply in this instance.

In addition, the picture linked is not the same. When did Jimmy's shoulder come out on top and his hands come back to the hips? Have to go back and watch, but don't remember that.

WTF are you talking about? The rules talk about CONTROLLING BOTH LEGS - Jimmy's hands were busy controlling and completely tying up Heil's lower left leg and ankle as part of his "stack" (Jimmy's right leg is hooked over the right leg of Heil completing the stack). The rules also say nothing about getting a "shoulder out" when both Jimmy's arms were busy controlling Heil's lower left leg and his shoulder had zippidy-do-dah-day to do with anything, most especially the rule for this given situation! And the NCAA rule for the applicable situation is the SAME as the high school rule (i.e., one wrestler is controlling both legs of opponent, has control and is holding opponent in pinning position NEGATES a crotch-lock that is doing nothing, except further pinning the "defensive wrestler"....and most certainly is useless in Heil "improving his position" or preventing the control of the clear "pinning move" as Jimmy demonstrated by holding Heil in the pinning position for a half a minute until the period expired!). You're completely full of $hit that there is any requirement that Jimmy break the crotch-lock (i.e., "free his shoulder") in that situation - completely full of $hit and Jimmy demonstrated control of both legs and Heil's upper body by OFFENSIVELY STACKING Heil (as evidenced by his HOOKING Heil's right leg with his own a la a spladle) and then HOLDING Heil in this PINNING POSITION MOVE continuously for 30 seconds! You're full of $hit with your notion that Heil's crotch-lock was preventing ANYTHING, least of all a TD on the actual rules!

 

[CowboyUp61]

WTF are you talking about? The rules talk about CONTROLLING BOTH LEGS - Jimmy's hands were busy controlling and completely tying up Heil's lower left leg and ankle as part of his "stack" (Jimmy's right leg is hooked over the right leg of Heil completing the stack). The rules also say nothing about getting a "shoulder out" when both Jimmy's arms were busy controlling Heil's lower left leg and his shoulder had zippidy-do-dah-day to do with anything, most especially the rule for this given situation! And the NCAA rule for the applicable situation is the SAME as the high school rule (i.e., one wrestler is controlling both legs of opponent, has control and is holding opponent in pinning position NEGATES a crotch-lock that is doing nothing, except further pinning the "defensive wrestler"....and most certainly is useless in Heil "improving his position" or preventing the control of the clear "pinning move" as Jimmy demonstrated by holding Heil in the pinning position for a half a minute until the period expired!). Your completely full of $hit that there is any requirement that Jimmy break the crotch-lock (i.e., "free his shoulder") in that situation - completely full of $hit and Jimmy demonstrated control of both legs and Heil's upper body by OFFENSIVELY STACKING Heil (as evidenced by his HOOKING Heil's right leg with his own a la a spladle) and then HOLDING Heil in this PINNING POSITION MOVE continuously for 30 seconds! You're full of $hit with your notion that Heil's crotch-lock was preventing ANYTHING, least of all a TD on the actual rules!

Now you are blathering with no conception of what you are talking about, or at least I can't make sense of what you are saying. Might try reading the rulebook rather than looking at the pictures.

 

[Lyco1990]

Now you are blathering with no conception of what you are talking about, or at least I can't make sense of what you are saying. Might try reading the rulebook rather than looking at the pictures.

Now you are just trolling. There are two different but related issues that Franklin is bringing up and you are artfully playing dumb. Issue 1. If you watch the video most wrestling fans agree it was a fall, heck that is even the consensus on HR. 2. Even if no fall, as you disagree Franklin is pointing out it should have been a takedown and most likely nearfall. Basically your beloved official blew quite a few calls in close matches period. 1. Jimmy fall or takedown. 2. Zains stall calls by the book should have resulted in two stalling points awarded to him. 3. The stall call on Hall after he steps into the wrestler and is pushed out.

 

[MDAlum]

WTF are you talking about? I haven't said a word about a takedown, or stalemate. And if you are going to link a rules picture, could you at least get the correct one? I don't think the NFHS rules apply in this instance.

In addition, the picture linked is not the same. When did Jimmy's shoulder come out on top and his hands come back to the hips? Have to go back and watch, but don't remember that.

OMG stop. You have more posts about this on a PSU board than the collective PSU fans. We get your point, we just agree to disagree. Please cease and desist.

 

[CowboyUp61]

OMG stop. You have more posts about this on a PSU board than the collective PSU fans. We get your point, we just agree to disagree. Please cease and desist.

OK

 

[wrestlinPSU]

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. A still photo proves nothing. I gave the example of photo taken in the middle of a roll. I could also include that a still photo does not show if pinning criteria is held for one second, which is the requirement for a pin.

Also, in an earlier post I discussed how refs are assigned in college. There is no such thing as a Big 12 wrestling ref. There is a referee assignor that who signs an agreement with the Big 12 to assign refs to their duals and their conference tournament. The refs are independent contractors, and don't work for the league.



You may be correct that Heil was pinned.

At the same time, consider the fact that I've discussed the match with several college refs, who have reviewed the video that is available, and not one of them has felt that the video provided clear evidence that Heil was pinned. Again, that doesn't mean that Heil wasn't pinned -- it simply means that nobody has posted video that shows clearly that he was pinned.

Tom, I respect everything you say on this forum. Period.

But it is not hard to interpret the pinning rule. I don't think he was pinned in 2nd period. But I think it is pretty darn clear he was in the third. He was pinned down for one second.

If he was not pinned, then why was a takedown not called with respect to the rulebook? I'd like to know how other referees interpret the takedown rule in that specific situation. When is it a takedown exactly? What more has to happen for that to be a takedown?

 

[SRATH]

bwifan, CowboyUp is correct in this instance. A still photo proves nothing. Still photos in the middle of rolls could be used as evidence of a pin when that's not even close to being accurate.

The still photo you've posted is a great angle. If there were video from that angle, it would enable other refs to offer their opinion on whether or not Hagerty missed a pin.

The Flo video, and the short video clip that was posted on Sunday, show that Heil was close to getting pinned, but don't show conclusively that Jimmy should have gotten the fall.

Question......I agree the videos I've seen are not conclusive pin. That said, when I think of a roll......it is someone rolling through. This happens a lot in folk and is never a pin. There was no roll through......Jimmy would have been decapitated based on his positioning. JG had him nearly pinned for quite some time and appeared to push him, multiple times, over. JG had more of a roll on.... rather than a roll through. Do the rules distinguish between the two?

Cael was pretty fired up and we know that is very, very rare.

 

[El-Jefe]

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. A still photo proves nothing. I gave the example of photo taken in the middle of a roll. I could also include that a still photo does not show if pinning criteria is held for one second, which is the requirement for a pin.

According to HR, still photos prove that Bo Nickal was pinned.

Video showed otherwise.

I think Heil was pinned too. But Tom's right -- still shots are meaningless. All they prove is that the photographer knows how to use burst mode, or that someone can go frame-by-frame before taking a screenshot.

 

[21Guns]

WTF are you talking about? The rules talk about CONTROLLING BOTH LEGS - Jimmy's hands were busy controlling and completely tying up Heil's lower left leg and ankle as part of his "stack" (Jimmy's right leg is hooked over the right leg of Heil completing the stack). The rules also say nothing about getting a "shoulder out" when both Jimmy's arms were busy controlling Heil's lower left leg and his shoulder had zippidy-do-dah-day to do with anything, most especially the rule for this given situation! And the NCAA rule for the applicable situation is the SAME as the high school rule (i.e., one wrestler is controlling both legs of opponent, has control and is holding opponent in pinning position NEGATES a crotch-lock that is doing nothing, except further pinning the "defensive wrestler"....and most certainly is useless in Heil "improving his position" or preventing the control of the clear "pinning move" as Jimmy demonstrated by holding Heil in the pinning position for a half a minute until the period expired!). Your completely full of $hit that there is any requirement that Jimmy break the crotch-lock (i.e., "free his shoulder") in that situation - completely full of $hit and Jimmy demonstrated control of both legs and Heil's upper body by OFFENSIVELY STACKING Heil (as evidenced by his HOOKING Heil's right leg with his own a la a spladle) and then HOLDING Heil in this PINNING POSITION MOVE continuously for 30 seconds! You're full of $hit with your notion that Heil's crotch-lock was preventing ANYTHING, least of all a TD on the actual rules!

Franklin is correct: This is a takedown and back points from any other referee, anywhere other than Stillwater.

 

[yekrut321]

Maybe we need to rename this thread to........"Pingate......the pin that wasn't"

 

[21Guns]

Maybe we need to rename this thread to........"Pingate......the pin that wasn't"

I prefer the title it is given: This official missed three pin calls, made two bogus stall calls on a leg ride, and another bogus stall call on a wrestler who had a single leg attempt at the time of the call. All in favor of one team.

Regardless of his resume or his reputation, he should be held accountable and prevented from officiating at the NCAA tournament this year.

 

[wrestlinPSU]

Franklin is correct: This is a takedown and back points from any other referee, anywhere other than Stillwater.

My final two cents. From NCAA rulebook.

A takedown shall be awarded when, from the neutral position, a contestant gains control by taking the opponent down to the mat in bounds. (See Illustration Nos. 49 through 52.) Nos. 51 and 52—TAKEDOWN. The offensive wrestler has stopped the defensive wrestler’s crotch-lift rollthrough attempts. In these situations, when the defensive wrestler cannot improve the position, a takedown shall be awarded.

2.13 Fall Any part of both shoulders or part of both scapulae (For pinning area, see Illustration No. 2.) of either wrestler held in contact with the mat for one second constitutes a fall. The one-second count (one-thousand-one) shall be a silent count by the referee and shall start only after the referee is in position to observe that a fall is imminent, after which the shoulders or scapulae area must be held in continuous contact with the mat for one second before a fall is awarded.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/WR15.pdf

 

[bwifan]

bwifan, CowboyUp is correct in this instance. A still photo proves nothing. Still photos in the middle of rolls could be used as evidence of a pin when that's not even close to being accurate.

The still photo you've posted is a great angle. If there were video from that angle, it would enable other refs to offer their opinion on whether or not Hagerty missed a pin.

The Flo video, and the short video clip that was posted on Sunday, show that Heil was close to getting pinned, but don't show conclusively that Jimmy should have gotten the fall.

No worries... everyone is entitled to their opinion. We just disagree. I obviously side with most on this board that there was enough there to ring him up. BTW it was chilly(only went up to 79 today) on the back nine today although sun came back out while having a nice adult beverage and sunset.

 

[chrisrn1965]

I prefer the title it is given: This official missed three pin calls, made two bogus stall calls on a leg ride, and another bogus stall call on a wrestler who had a single leg attempt at the time of the call. All in favor of one team.

Regardless of his resume or his reputation, he should be held accountable and prevented from officiating at the NCAA tournament this year.

If he is found to have made errors is he suspended or disciplined in some way? I feel that officiating in most sports is characterized by a lack of accountability. If he screwed up he should man up and apologize and accept consequences such as a suspension. If he was indeed correct and we are missing something we deserve an explanation. Obviously many knowledgeable wrestling fans feel that egregious errors occurred.

 

[chrisrn1965]

If he is found to have made errors is he suspended or disciplined in some way? I feel that officiating in most sports is characterized by a lack of accountability. If he screwed up he should man up and apologize and accept consequences such as a suspension. If he was indeed correct and we are missing something we deserve an explanation. Obviously many knowledgeable wrestling fans feel that egregious errors occurred.

Also can Penn State request that this official not work matches involving our wrestlers?