So, Big Ten apologists...

[gslachta]

I did not know that about football refs - I thought they contracted with a specific conference. I had always (heard? assumed?) it was big deal for a ref to get bumped from a G5 conference to a P5 conference due to exemplary work. (relatively exemplary, perhaps). And they sometimes work 1AA games/confs besides their usual assignments.... never knew that. thanks.

Is there a shortage of refs? I sometimes wonder how, in the early season when most of the non-conf games happen, there are enough to go around. The B1G-contracted refs, for example, would have to potentially cover 14 games (in the extreme) instead of 7.

If there is shortage I want to volunteer. I don’t know the rules but as I see it I am more than qualified. I’d probably miss less calls than O’Neill just getting 50-50 correct.

 

[Art]

Thanks.
It's a dilemma. But the interest has to be first and foremost within getting it right. I can see how that answer may not be found on the field with more officials. With 8 in college (I think) on-field officials now, covering 22 players, you'd think the >1-to-3 ratio was plenty. While safety has to be a top concern, there probably needs to be few changes to give the officials a few fewer things to look for. How much safety is added by the 'hands to the face' rule that is in full force, especially in the NFL? Hands in under the facemask, the old Deacon Jones head slap, etc. are rightfully banned. But as usual, the intent of the rule does not match the overall impact by the more fringe interpretations of the rule. And that leads to what happened Monday night - it gets misapplied for whatever reasons.

Getting the calls right, which means increased use of technology, also means not excluding certain calls as non-reviewable, imo. I appreciate the concerns about how much time that potentially takes over the course of a set of downs, a drive, a quarter, a game. But, I'd rather add a couple minutes using a neutral reviewer than get a game-changing call wrong, when it is fairly easily caught and corrected.

It seems as though the NHL is having some success with the reviews being done outside of the arena. Not that I watch a lot of NHL hockey in the regular season, and I don't know the conditions around calling for reviews, but others have commented that they have their system working pretty well, which I take to mean it's quick and decisive and usually right.

Just venting, I guess. Frustrating as hell to see this stuff nearly every week. I appreciate the insight and info you've provided.

I agree, more has to be done. As far as bodies, it's not just numbers, it's positioning. Beyond 10 yards, the middle of the field isn't well covered. You've got two guys covering the tackle box with all that's going on in it. Could go on and that's when guys do what they're supposed to. It could be improved with more supervision, training, and feedback, but as I said before, it's mainly amateur hour. The only guy at the Big Ten who is supposed to be doing this full time ain't. Even the NFL with more, dedicated resources at the top screws up a lot. And Goodell gets a helluva lot more heat from the owners in a season than Delany has seen in his entire tenure at the Big Ten.

 

[Post_ShockTherapy_MackDaddy]

What say you? Your boys once again tried to steal a game from Penn State. Even with replay. Unbelievable.

Not disagreeing with you. But, it would be nice to know how many times refs screwed other teams.

Obviously, we all watch and follow Penn State. So, every call is hyper-analyzed. But, we don't know if Purdue suffers the same fate or Illinois or Michigan State.

Just saying it'd be nice to have some data. Sure... I know of four calls that were obvious. But, doesn't this happen everywhere?

 

[MacNit07]

Thanks.
It's a dilemma. But the interest has to be first and foremost within getting it right. I can see how that answer may not be found on the field with more officials. With 8 in college (I think) on-field officials now, covering 22 players, you'd think the >1-to-3 ratio was plenty. While safety has to be a top concern, there probably needs to be few changes to give the officials a few fewer things to look for. How much safety is added by the 'hands to the face' rule that is in full force, especially in the NFL? Hands in under the facemask, the old Deacon Jones head slap, etc. are rightfully banned. But as usual, the intent of the rule does not match the overall impact by the more fringe interpretations of the rule. And that leads to what happened Monday night - it gets misapplied for whatever reasons.

Getting the calls right, which means increased use of technology, also means not excluding certain calls as non-reviewable, imo. I appreciate the concerns about how much time that potentially takes over the course of a set of downs, a drive, a quarter, a game. But, I'd rather add a couple minutes using a neutral reviewer than get a game-changing call wrong, when it is fairly easily caught and corrected.

It seems as though the NHL is having some success with the reviews being done outside of the arena. Not that I watch a lot of NHL hockey in the regular season, and I don't know the conditions around calling for reviews, but others have commented that they have their system working pretty well, which I take to mean it's quick and decisive and usually right.

Just venting, I guess. Frustrating as hell to see this stuff nearly every week. I appreciate the insight and info you've provided.

You are over analyzing this - Delaney - executed by O’Neil and others (Witveot, Lemmoniere, etc) are cheating Penn State. They have been since 1993 and it has gotten worse since 2011.

 

[nits74]

Not disagreeing with you. But, it would be nice to know how many times refs screwed other teams.

Obviously, we all watch and follow Penn State. So, every call is hyper-analyzed. But, we don't know if Purdue suffers the same fate or Illinois or Michigan State.

Just saying it'd be nice to have some data. Sure... I know of four calls that were obvious. But, doesn't this happen everywhere?

Hear you, but I do know it's never happened to Ohio State or Michigan vs. Penn state since they joined the conference.

 

[Bob78]

Not disagreeing with you. But, it would be nice to know how many times refs screwed other teams.

Obviously, we all watch and follow Penn State. So, every call is hyper-analyzed. But, we don't know if Purdue suffers the same fate or Illinois or Michigan State.

Just saying it'd be nice to have some data. Sure... I know of four calls that were obvious. But, doesn't this happen everywhere?

If I recall, a few years ago in one of these same discussions after yet another on-field Zebra-on-Nittany Lion screwing, we either heard from or someone posted articles from other fan bases saying they see or perceive the same screwing in favor of the BigTwo. Michigan State, Illinois, and a couple others made the same claims as we did/are, saying the bias vs. them over the course of many years was evident.

The longer-term usual suspects of B1G irrelevants or also-rans don't run into it as much, maybe because their games are not as tightly contested as frequently.
Bad calls happen, you hope by human error, not bias. But there are a whole lot of fans in the B1G who certainly feel there is an unending slant in favor of the BigTwo.

 

[Erial_Lion]

Not disagreeing with you. But, it would be nice to know how many times refs screwed other teams.

Obviously, we all watch and follow Penn State. So, every call is hyper-analyzed. But, we don't know if Purdue suffers the same fate or Illinois or Michigan State.

Just saying it'd be nice to have some data. Sure... I know of four calls that were obvious. But, doesn't this happen everywhere?

Every game, at every school, many fans think they got screwed by the refs. Ask Iowa fans about Saturday and they’ll talk about the Clifford fumble that wasn’t reviewed, or some other plays.

What four calls were “obvious”? I thought the TD and the 3rd And 1 for a first down were obviously mistakes. What else do you put in that category?

 

[Post_ShockTherapy_MackDaddy]

Every game, at every school, many fans think they got screwed by the refs. Ask Iowa fans about Saturday and they’ll talk about the Clifford fumble that wasn’t reviewed, or some other plays.

What four calls were “obvious”? I thought the TD and the 3rd And 1 for a first down were obviously mistakes. What else do you put in that category?

I'm talking through the years: Penn State Iowa 2002, Michigans extra second, etc...

 

[Post_ShockTherapy_MackDaddy]

Hear you, but I do know it's never happened to Ohio State or Michigan vs. Penn state since they joined the conference.

You may be correct. But, last year the Saints were driving for a TD and the Rams had a pass interference penalty NOT called that - more or less - cost the Saints a chance from going to the Super Bowl.

Now, that play was pretty damn obvious to me.

 

[Ughhh]

Every game, at every school, many fans think they got screwed by the refs. Ask Iowa fans about Saturday and they’ll talk about the Clifford fumble that wasn’t reviewed, or some other plays.

What four calls were “obvious”? I thought the TD and the 3rd And 1 for a first down were obviously mistakes. What else do you put in that category?

Then they are wrong and we are right on this one. I’m sorry, the two calls you mentioned are game-changing and too blatant to dismiss as incompetence. And you missed the “hold” on Reid that led to a minimum of a 3 point swing for Iowa. And the comical PI on Reid later on.

How many times does this need to happen with the same Buckeye referee who doesn’t hide his disdain for Penn State?

 

[Erial_Lion]

Then they are wrong and we are right on this one. I’m sorry, the two calls you mentioned are game-changing and too blatant to dismiss as incompetence. And you missed the “hold” on Reid that led to a minimum of a 3 point swing for Iowa. And the comical PI on Reid later on.

How many times does this need to happen with the same Buckeye referee who doesn’t hide his disdain for Penn State?

The hold on Reid was off-screen, and we never saw a replay of it. Is there video that you’ve seen to show it was an obvious bad call?

I’d say the Reid PI was more “borderline” than “comical”. Like to see that contact let go, but Reid definitely was grabbing for him. But it worked out for us thankfully, as Brisker picked off the next pass and gave us great field position.

Those two calls don’t fall nearly into the “obvious” bucket like the first down and touchdown calls, which were obvious misses.

 

[nits74]

You may be correct. But, last year the Saints were driving for a TD and the Rams had a pass interference penalty NOT called that - more or less - cost the Saints a chance from going to the Super Bowl.

Now, that play was pretty damn obvious to me.

View embedded media

Well documented and true, and the NFL replay rules were changed as a result (not necessarily for the better, though). With Penn State, it doesn't seem to matter much what replay shows, they still manage to get screwed.

 

[Post_ShockTherapy_MackDaddy]

Well documented and true, and the NFL replay rules were changed as a result (not necessarily for the better, though). With Penn State, it doesn't seem to matter much what replay shows, they still manage to get screwed.

I love Penn State as much as you; I follow Penn State as much as you.

When Penn State entered BIG 10 Football against Meeechigan in 1993, that flag was deliberate and made a clear statement to Penn State: WELCOME TO THE BIG 10.

And, there were some calls (e.g., against Iowa in 2002) that were deliberate. JoePa helped get replay after that.

But, a conspiracy against Penn State Football? I don't think so.

Someone would have to compile data on all B1G teams and show that Penn State is an outlier from the data.

 

[MacNit07]

I love Penn State as much as you; I follow Penn State as much as you.

When Penn State entered BIG 10 Football against Meeechigan in 1993, that flag was deliberate and made a clear statement to Penn State: WELCOME TO THE BIG 10.

And, there were some calls (e.g., against Iowa in 2002) that were deliberate. JoePa helped get replay after that.

But, a conspiracy against Penn State Football? I don't think so.

Someone would have to compile data on all B1G teams and show that Penn State is an outlier from the data.

How about that “ Welcome to the Bih10 flag in 1993 you referred? Sounds like you are admitting that was deliberate? Then why not the others?

 

[Ughhh]

The hold on Reid was off-screen, and we never saw a replay of it. Is there video that you’ve seen to show it was an obvious bad call?

I’d say the Reid PI was more “borderline” than “comical”. Like to see that contact let go, but Reid definitely was grabbing for him. But it worked out for us thankfully, as Brisker picked off the next pass and gave us great field position.

Those two calls don’t fall nearly into the “obvious” bucket like the first down and touchdown calls, which were obvious misses.

Jesus, you could be punched in the face on the street and your reaction would be to rationalize why you deserved it

 

[Erial_Lion]

Jesus, you could be punched in the face on the street and your reaction would be to rationalize why you deserved it

Guess I’m not one to cry about the refs and invent conspiracy theories as to why they are out to get us. But go ahead complaining that the Reid hold was an obvious bad call when you’ve seen no video of it.

 

[Post_ShockTherapy_MackDaddy]

How about that “ Welcome to the Bih10 flag in 1993 you referred? Sounds like you are admitting that was deliberate? Then why not the others?

The 1993 flag had no effect on the outcome. So, it was funny (if you're not a Penn State fan).

All schools have stories of horrendous calls or non calls. I hear it from all fans ad nauseum.

But, supposedly Penn State has MORE than other schools. You re a college boy, right? Compile the data, then. It's so obvious it should be a piece of cake, right?

 

[MacNit07]

The 1993 flag had no effect on the outcome. So, it was funny (if you're not a Penn State fan).

All schools have stories of horrendous calls or non calls. I hear it from all fans ad nauseum.

But, supposedly Penn State has MORE than other schools. You re a college boy, right? Compile the data, then. It's so obvious it should be a piece of cake, right?[/QUOTE

I hear random complaints. We all have heard those. Been watching PSU for nearly 50 years and never gave it a second thought - until 1993. But now it’s like a bad penny. To the point that many (must fans) know the ref crews and individual head refs. Never experienced that before and know if no other fan bases with that issue. Why? Because the screwings are oh so predictable. Many (myself included) called for chicanery In Saturday with O’Neil and we were not disappointed. Do you think it is typical that people are still complaining this long AFTER A WIN?