So Brooks sits on Friday...

[NittanyChris]

and ducks Jackson, because, according to AZChief he was needed to be fresh for his match against Dudley today in what was supposed to be a close dual vs Nebraska. Then, with the match decided in Iowa's favor, Dudley is kept on the bench and ducks Brooks. Tan Tom sits BoJo every other week depending on who his opponent will be. Bouncy Brands sits Brooks. Manning sits Dudley. And on and on and on...

Is there another college sport where this Bull***t happens?

Will this idiocy ever end?

If you want to "grow the sport", don't the best need to wrestle the best?

 

[pish69]

It's a total joke and agree it's no way to grow the sport

And like you said. These aren't injuries. These are coaches strategically holding out kids against kids they may lose too.

And please don't come to me with the Jordan tumor. He wrestled the match before and after Hall. Hmmmm...

 

[Real-Lion]

and ducks Jackson, because, according to AZChief he was needed to be fresh for his match against Dudley today in what was supposed to be a close dual vs Nebraska. Then, with the match decided in Iowa's favor, Dudley is kept on the bench and ducks Brooks. Tan Tom sits BoJo every other week depending on who his opponent will be. Bouncy Brands sits Brooks. Manning sits Dudley. And on and on and on...

Is there another college sport where this Bull***t happens?

Will this idiocy ever end?

If you want to "grow the sport", don't the best need to wrestle the best?

That God Cael never does this crap...TERRIBLE FOR THE SPORT OF WRESTLING...SOMETHING NEEDS DONE ABOUT THIS OR TAKE INTO STRONG CONSIDERATION AT SEEDING SO IT BACKFIRES....It's wasting peoples money too who go to watch the matches....

 

[21Guns]

You know who doesn't duck anyone? Penn State and Cael Sanderson.

 

[kingslayer_85]

In most of these I am going to give the kids the benefit of the doubt and recognize that they are properly banged up or recovering. I don't see most of the kids being discussed as missing matches would be ducking anyone

 

[21Guns]

In most of these I am going to give the kids the benefit of the doubt and recognize that they are properly banged up or recovering. I don't see most of the kids being discussed as missing matches would be ducking anyone

Kids aren't making the decisions.

 

[NittanyChris]

In most of these I am going to give the kids the benefit of the doubt and recognize that they are properly banged up or recovering. I don't see most of the kids being discussed as missing matches would be ducking anyone

Without analyzing each individual circumstance, I don't think that you could reasonably deny that this has been and continues to be a problem for the sport.

When will it end?

 

[21Guns]

Without analyzing each individual circumstance, I don't think that you could reasonably deny that this has been and continues to be a problem for the sport.

When will it end?

It was as bad as I can ever recall, this year. Today was awful. It's going to continue next week, and it might even continue in the conference championships. I'm on record as saying that Ryan might sit Bojo if he has to face Hall in the finals.

It will not end, until the seeding committee for Nationals, makes these coaches pay for this. For every duck, you lose 2 seeds.

 

[LemonPie]

The team I root for skipped an entire mid-season tournament. It's ok.

 

[dunkej01]

The team I root for skipped an entire mid-season tournament. It's ok.

stilling holding a grudge.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

It was as bad as I can ever recall, this year. Today was awful. It's going to continue next week, and it might even continue in the conference championships. I'm on record as saying that Ryan might sit Bojo if he has to face Hall in the finals.

It will not end, until the seeding committee for Nationals, makes these coaches pay for this. For every duck, you lose 2 seeds.

Seriously doubt that BoJo cedes a B1G Title just to protect a 1 seed v a 2 seed at NCAAs - why would he do that? What difference would it make whether you're 1 or 2?

 

[James P. Whitters III]

Simply change all seeding criteria to reflect quality wins with no losses taking part in the decision. 6-3 against top 20 guys trumps 5-0 against top 20 guys.

 

[21Guns]

Simply change all seeding criteria to reflect quality wins with no losses taking part in the decision. 6-3 against top 20 guys trumps 5-0 against top 20 guys.

Might work, good idea.

 

[Abro1975]

The Sport hides behind Pay Walls, ducking opponents, and bizarre scheduling. No wonder it is relegated to EsPN 3, Flo ,& track. Sometimes BTN fans luck out w good matches, but it's a rarity. Whoever the leadership is for College Wrestling, please think outside the Box ! You need more Exposure and better match ups ! Much More!

 

[NittanyChris]

Simply change all seeding criteria to reflect quality wins with no losses taking part in the decision. 6-3 against top 20 guys trumps 5-0 against top 20 guys.

James, that's pretty damn good. I like it a lot.

 

[jmadden1998]

Simply change all seeding criteria to reflect quality wins with no losses taking part in the decision. 6-3 against top 20 guys trumps 5-0 against top 20 guys.

Which rankings would you propose to use? Coaches? RPI? Or some other website like Intermat?

 

[BigFreddy]

Simply change all seeding criteria to reflect quality wins with no losses taking part in the decision. 6-3 against top 20 guys trumps 5-0 against top 20 guys.

Interesting idea. Just to play devil's advocate, does this introduce sort of the opposite problem. Do you then see coaches sit top wrestlers vs. slightly less highly ranked wrestlers, in order to deprive the lower ranker wrestler of an opportunity to improve his seeding?

Say Team A has the #3 157 pounder in the country and that he's locked up the 1 seed in his conference tourney and Team B has the #10 157 pounder nationally who likely needs one more good win to improve his seed at the conference tourney (say from 4 to 3). Suppose further that Team A and Team B are expected to be in a tight race for first at the conference tournament. Is the coach of Team A then incentivized to sit his #3 guy? Why even give Team B's 157 a chance to get that win?

 

[Real-Lion]

Interesting idea. Just to play devil's advocate, does this introduce sort of the opposite problem. Do you then see coaches sit top wrestlers vs. slightly less highly ranked wrestlers, in order to deprive the lower ranker wrestler of an opportunity to improve his seeding?

Say Team A has the #3 157 pounder in the country and that he's locked up the 1 seed in his conference tourney and Team B has the #10 157 pounder nationally who likely needs one more good win to improve his seed at the conference tourney (say from 4 to 3). Suppose further that Team A and Team B are expected to be in a tight race for first at the conference tournament. Is the coach of Team A then incentivized to sit his #3 guy? Why even give Team B's 157 a chance to get that win?

Hope Cael and a few others bring this up during the seeding meeting of holding guys out....This should backfire on them...Their fans were even mad out it....

 

[drock1971]

In most of these I am going to give the kids the benefit of the doubt and recognize that they are properly banged up or recovering. I don't see most of the kids being discussed as missing matches would be ducking anyone

I'd have to think--99.9% of division 1 college wrestlers would NEVER duck a kid or pull themselves because they're less than 100% due to injury or illness. I wasn't a stud wrestler--just a guy that wrestled to stay fit & never sucked weight to be in shape for football & baseball seasons.
And being in Pennsylvania that means taking some ass beatings & mat burns all about the face.....& I never thought of ducking the Nazareth/Northampton kids.

 

[21Guns]

These kids are warriors. The elite of the elite in the sport. I agree, 99 % of them would not duck another kid. It's on the coaches. I don't want to name any names, but TOM RYAN comes to mind right away.

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

Jordan has a tumor in his foot had nothing to do with ducking opponents to protect a seed he's been dealing with that foot problem for a couple of years now

 

[pish69]

Jordan has a tumor in his foot had nothing to do with ducking opponents to protect a seed he's been dealing with that foot problem for a couple of years now

It's the coach not the kid. We know now the kid has a tumor and it must be painful to compete with. That being said, when the kid wrestles the week before and then the week after Hall, sirens go off. The coach didn't want to see Jordan lose and he held him out.

This kind of stuff pisses a lot of people off. Mannings done it twice now with Dudley and Brands did it Friday.

 

[The Stan]

I think there is an easy way for conference tournaments, seed the schools based upon the school's record in conference play, not the individuals.

 

[21Guns]

Jordan has a tumor in his foot had nothing to do with ducking opponents to protect a seed he's been dealing with that foot problem for a couple of years now

It probably just acted up, right before his match with Hall, and then was all better again for the next match, since he wrestled both before, and after, ducking Hall.

 

[slushhead]

Please, would any of you accusing coaches of "ducking" provide some actual proof? Not conjecture, not circumstantial evidence, but actual proof? You are making claims about people's ethics . . . and you either do not know the circumstances or are not divulging the truth.

Penn State has had its way all season long and will have its day in 5 weeks, seeds be damned. What is there to bellyache about?

 

[a_mshaffer]

Interesting idea. Just to play devil's advocate, does this introduce sort of the opposite problem. Do you then see coaches sit top wrestlers vs. slightly less highly ranked wrestlers, in order to deprive the lower ranker wrestler of an opportunity to improve his seeding?

Say Team A has the #3 157 pounder in the country and that he's locked up the 1 seed in his conference tourney and Team B has the #10 157 pounder nationally who likely needs one more good win to improve his seed at the conference tourney (say from 4 to 3). Suppose further that Team A and Team B are expected to be in a tight race for first at the conference tournament. Is the coach of Team A then incentivized to sit his #3 guy? Why even give Team B's 157 a chance to get that win?

cause it is wrestling and you want to wrestle the best, any and everyone. Self pride keeps you from 'ducking' anyone.

 

[liex26]

I still don't see how it isn't a loss. If the backup loses, it's a loss for that team at that weight class. Is it possible to just look at the weight class instead of each wrestler for seeding? No scenario is perfect, but the current situation is obviously being abused.

The battle for second place is getting strategic

 

[BigFreddy]

cause it is wrestling and you want to wrestle the best, any and everyone. Self pride keeps you from 'ducking' anyone.

I never said otherwise.

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

It's the coach not the kid. We know now the kid has a tumor and it must be painful to compete with. That being said, when the kid wrestles the week before and then the week after Hall, sirens go off. The coach didn't want to see Jordan lose and he held him out.

This kind of stuff pisses a lot of people off. Mannings done it twice now with Dudley and Brands did it Friday.

It was noted he injured his foot during the Iowa match he didn't wrestle the Rutgers dual after that either

 

[pish69]

Please, would any of you accusing coaches of "ducking" provide some actual proof? Not conjecture, not circumstantial evidence, but actual proof? You are making claims about people's ethics . . . and you either do not know the circumstances or are not divulging the truth.

Penn State has had its way all season long and will have its day in 5 weeks, seeds be damned. What is there to bellyache about?

Are you kidding? Proof? Ok Brands sat Brooks Friday against Jackson and kid come back today and pins a kid. Ryan wrestles Bojo against Meyer 1 week, sit him against Hall the next and then the next dual Jordan pins some kid.

What the hell more proof can you get? If this kids were too injured to compete they wouldn't be able to come back two days later.

It's bad for the sport. Has nothing to do with what PSU did on the mat

 

[NittanyChris]

All of you disputing the validity of individual cases are missing the forest for the trees.

That this is a problem for the sport seems painfully obvious.

The question is what can be done about it. I do like James Whitter's idea about seeding criteria for starters, but there's got to be more that can be done to disincentivize this type of behavior.

 

[El-Jefe]

Simply change all seeding criteria to reflect quality wins with no losses taking part in the decision. 6-3 against top 20 guys trumps 5-0 against top 20 guys.

The best part of this idea is that, once implemented, message boards will automatically associate missed matches with injuries and no longer explode with conspiracy theories.

 

[slushhead]

All of you disputing the validity of individual cases are missing the forest for the trees.

That this is a problem for the sport seems painfully obvious.

The question is what can be done about it. I do like James Whitter's idea about seeding criteria for starters, but there's got to be more that can be done to disincentivize this type of behavior.

The only thing "painfully obvious" to me is that you have no data to support your claim. How has the sport been hurt by this "ducking" phenomenon that you purport?

How many wrestling fans have stopped following and supporting the sport because they think coaches are sitting guys to preserve seeds? Do you know of a single case?

How many prospective fans have opted not to give wrestling a chance because they think coaches are sitting guys to preserve seeds? Do you know of a single case?

How many wrestlers have quit the sport for reasons related to your claims? How many prospective wrestlers have chosen not to try the sport for reasons related to your claims? Can you name a single case in either category?

Please, present some data* to show that the sport of wrestling is being hurt by coaches sitting wrestlers to preserve seeds.....If you can even prove that's what Brands and Ryan did the past few weeks.

Good luck.


*Outrage by you over what you perceive to be other coaches' intentions does not qualify as something that hurts the sport. It's an annoyance, but the sport will survive, somehow.

 

[slushhead]

Are you kidding? Proof? Ok Brands sat Brooks Friday against Jackson and kid come back today and pins a kid. Ryan wrestles Bojo against Meyer 1 week, sit him against Hall the next and then the next dual Jordan pins some kid.

What the hell more proof can you get? If this kids were too injured to compete they wouldn't be able to come back two days later.

It's bad for the sport. Has nothing to do with what PSU did on the mat

Unfortunately for your argument, zero proof is not more than zero proof. Keep searching. Maybe you can report back to us what you learn about the details around each situation. I'm betting it's more complex than being physically capable of taking the mat.

 

[nitlion6]

The battle for second place is getting strategic

Now that is a post I really like.

 

[lobo lion]

Simply change all seeding criteria to reflect quality wins with no losses taking part in the decision. 6-3 against top 20 guys trumps 5-0 against top 20 guys.

Not a bad idea at first blush, but what if that 5-0 kid wrestled every available match, and his opponents just didn't happen to include as many top-20 guys? It gets even murkier if the 5-0 kid holds a win over the 6-3 wrestler.

 

[nitlion6]

Slush,
You are being a bit cranky. What's up?
There is no objective data. One of those if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it might just be a duck type of thing.

It isn't any different than watching a kid have to tie his shoes 10 times a match, or adjust his headgear every whistle start. Or better yet, watching Mark Perry get up 10 times during the Martinez Nolf Big10 championship match to question the refs and maximize the review process.
We have no idea what goes through a kid's head as he ties and retires his shoes, but we can see him breathing hard. We had no idea what was actually going through Perry's head, but we know the result was he slowed the match down for Martinez and improved his odds of winning against Nolf.

No, we are not sure of intent - only the appearance.

I agree, in the end I do not think it matters. BoJo is going to have to wrestle Mark.

Brands (Brooks) and Manning (Dudley) are positioning their kids for the best placement possible but neither is getting past Dean or Nickal.

Right now the appearance is Cael is training his kids to win championships. The others are playing games looking to maneuver their kids into better finishes.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

Interesting idea. Just to play devil's advocate, does this introduce sort of the opposite problem. Do you then see coaches sit top wrestlers vs. slightly less highly ranked wrestlers, in order to deprive the lower ranker wrestler of an opportunity to improve his seeding?

Say Team A has the #3 157 pounder in the country and that he's locked up the 1 seed in his conference tourney and Team B has the #10 157 pounder nationally who likely needs one more good win to improve his seed at the conference tourney (say from 4 to 3). Suppose further that Team A and Team B are expected to be in a tight race for first at the conference tournament. Is the coach of Team A then incentivized to sit his #3 guy? Why even give Team B's 157 a chance to get that win?

Could happen, but wrestler from team A would then miss the points he would have gained by beating Team B guy. Team B guy picks at least one point by wrestling the backup. You will need all the points you can get come NCAA seeding time. A guy positioning himself for a conference seed would be punished in his NCAA seed.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

I think I like the idea of the weight class being seeded for the school as a whole even better. A forfeit at any weight in your lineup subtracts a seeding point from that weight class, so you could even go in the whole.

 

[NittanyChris]

The only thing "painfully obvious" to me is that you have no data to support your claim. How has the sport been hurt by this "ducking" phenomenon that you purport?

How many wrestling fans have stopped following and supporting the sport because they think coaches are sitting guys to preserve seeds? Do you know of a single case?

How many prospective fans have opted not to give wrestling a chance because they think coaches are sitting guys to preserve seeds? Do you know of a single case?

How many wrestlers have quit the sport for reasons related to your claims? How many prospective wrestlers have chosen not to try the sport for reasons related to your claims? Can you name a single case in either category?

Please, present some data* to show that the sport of wrestling is being hurt by coaches sitting wrestlers to preserve seeds.....If you can even prove that's what Brands and Ryan did the past few weeks.

Good luck.


*Outrage by you over what you perceive to be other coaches' intentions does not qualify as something that hurts the sport. It's an annoyance, but the sport will survive, somehow.

Come on, man, the fact that there is no hard data does not invalidate the point. Perception is reality. I'm not alone on this board in thinking this issue needs to be addressed.

So, fans wait all week for a marquee matchup and then it doesn't happen at the last minute because the coach is protecting a seed and this is just fine for you? You're not disappointed at all?

It's not killing the sport, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem that needs attention. Sticking your head in the sand in acting like it's not a problem at all is not the solution.