Tesla ... thoughts on their cars?

[uhlerlion]

So....if one desires to reduce usage/dependence on fossil fuels.... which option makes sense:


A - Spend $5 Billion?, $10 Billion? to subsidize the marketing of a vehicle that uses a power source that is largely (over 80%) generated by the consumption of fossil fuels. (while making a handful of folks increasingly wealthy, at that taxpayer expense....and that provides, in exchange for those collective $$$$s, for the vast majority, absolutely zero benefit)

or

B - Spend that $5 or $10 billion dollars underwriting and developing methods to produce that power through "non-fossil fuel" (ie alternative energy) sources.........so that EVERYONE can benefit from the decreased reliance on fossil fuels (whether one views the benefit as a "global-warming" benefit, or a "eliminate middle-east conflation" benefit, or whatever issues they hold near and dear)


Option A
- Near zero impact on fossil fuel usage, and - at that - only wrt power needed to provide personal transportation.
- Redistribution of wealth to a tiny minority

Option B
- Reduced reliance on fossil fuel dependence - - - - for EVERY power need.
- Benefits for everyone.....financial, ecological (assuming you place any weight on the global warming issue), political, social, etc.


Yeah.....that's what I thought. Option A is MUCH better

Um you treat them as mutually exclusive when--- look at that---- you can do both spending on vehicle technology TO BE non dependent on fossil is far better posion than spending it on Gas guzzlers that will always be 100%

its called progressing moving forward

by the way you ignore certain facts about A who's subsidizing?

--GOVT loans paid back by Tesla with interest EARLY
--You fail to mention all the wonderful Hummer and some Escalades that get a subsidy or did get a subsidy. GM pay any of that back to the GOVT?? huge imapct on fossil fuel usage so I would say this is a negative
-- the goal if you have been paying attention is to move to solar so your 80% should become 20%

 

[uhlerlion]

Which accounts for 1/2 of 1% of US Electricity production.

So..... .....maybe a better use of social resources ($$$$) would be try work on ways to enhance the generation of renewable energy - - - - rather than....what is being done now.

Maybe

that we agree for sure

 

[roswelllion]

Had a good friend spec one out in the fall. Ended up being $150,000. Too much for me for any car.

 

[bjf1991]

that we agree for sure

Its really incredibly simple:

Option A
Use fossil fuels to power cars

Option B
Use fossil fuels to generate electricity to power cars

Option C
Use renewable resources to generate power - - - - for cars AND every other damn need (of which "cars" are only a tiny slice)

Which is the best use of societal resources of time and money and expertise?


Conventional "wisdom" (ie that which is congruent with the PR machines) is "Option B"

SMFH.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Do tell!

Only 30% of the electricity in the US comes from coal, and that number is going down every year.

 

[bjf1991]

Only 30% of the electricity in the US comes from coal, and that number is going down every year.

Going down slightly...about 15% in the last 5 years (as is power from Hydroelectric)...and primarily being replaced by Natural Gas as the source (along with a significant uptick - % wise - in "wind".....though "wind" is, in absolute terms, still a minor player)

 

[rumble_lion]

Average BTU per gallon of petroleum used to produce electricity.....140,000 BTU

Average conversion rate, BTU per KWH....... 11,000 PTU per KWH

Gallon of fossil fuel generates 13KWH (that is before accounting for any transmission losses - i.e. a "best case scenario. In actuality, transmission losses are typically 5% - - - a bit more than the "generation" costs of petroleum separation, but not enough to make it a significant factor in the comparison)

Which makes a TESLA Model S - BEST CASE - just about as efficient vav Fossil Fuel usage as a Honda Civic or a Chevy Cruze Sedan
It is what it is.

Someone wants to buy a TESLA? More power to them. Folks ought to be able to buy whatever car they want.

The idea that they should be subsidized? -
as opposed to subsidizing something that is actually beneficial....say something like enhancing the efficiency and resources utilized to actually PRODUCE the energy -
is just either a lie or a "stoopid".


But this issue gets so emotionally conflated that any discussion in the public realm - that I have ever seen - always degenerates into a meaningless Battle of the Buzzwords.


Right now:

From a governmental perspective: APPEARING to care about "global warming" is a politically savvy maneuver

From a personal perspective: BELIEVING your actions are motivated by "efficiency" and "global responsibility" appear to be comforting to many

(and, in fairness, if one ignores the costs - and the opportunity costs - there is a slight benefit wrt vehicles like a "TESLA")


And those factors don't appear to be changing anytime soon (certainly not enough to allow for facts and reason to rule the day)...... so there ya' go.

Average BTU per gallon of petroleum used to produce electricity.....140,000 BTU

Average conversion rate, BTU per KWH....... 11,000 PTU per KWH

Gallon of fossil fuel generates 13KWH (that is before accounting for any transmission losses - i.e. a "best case scenario. In actuality, transmission losses are typically 5% - - - a bit more than the "generation" costs of petroleum separation, but not enough to make it a significant factor in the comparison)

Who produces electricity with petroleum outside of Hawaii and Saudi Arabia? Oh and both of them are ramping up solar installs.

When I drove my Nissan leaf it costs me less than 30 dollars a month for electricity to drive 1000 miles. Plus I was able to purchase 100% wind power from my supplier.

 

[rumble_lion]

Going down slightly...about 15% in the last 5 years (as is power from Hydroelectric)...and primarily being replaced by Natural Gas as the source (along with a significant uptick - % wise - in "wind".....though "wind" is, in absolute terms, still a minor player)

The grid is getting greener every day. An electric car gets greener at the same pace. Gasmobiles? Nope you are locked in to using oil for the life of the car.

 

[Locolion]

I think in the immediate future, people will just have 2 cars, an electric and a gas. Electric for all the short stuff, gas for the longer stuff when required. At some point in the future, I suspect battery life will improve such that mileage continues to improve and charging gets faster and more of them. I think the other revolution coming is if the driverless cars get approved. Once that occurs, the Uber/Lyft ridesharing costs will have to start to come way down as no longer have to pay a driver. Just have an electric car (which will be much cheaper on a per mile basis over the 150,000 mile life of that car in a ridesharing app) that drives around for 22 hours per day and 2 hours to charge. Once that occurs, I think you start to see most city families go to one car only with the second car gone as the ridesharing takes up the burden.

The only question is when, not if.

Or, batteries will keep achieving better performance out of a smaller size (see anything technological) and you just plain won't need fossil fuels to be transported from point A to point B

 

[Locolion]

Had a good friend spec one out in the fall. Ended up being $150,000. Too much for me for any car.

Bullsh!t. Your good friend is dumb, lazy, or both.

 

[roswelllion]

Bullsh!t. Your good friend is dumb, lazy, or both.

Locolion,
He is neither. He was CEO of Kia North America and has successfully bought and sold 2 companies since then. Net worth probably north of 15 million. His stepdaughter
works at the Tesla store.
But don't let facts get in the way of your blindness.

 

[rumble_lion]

Bullsh!t. Your good friend is dumb, lazy, or both.

I believe you can spec one out that high if you add just about every option.

You know if you really "need" to have a suv that can do 0-60 is less than 3 seconds........

 

[83wuzme]

Its really incredibly simple:

Option A
Use fossil fuels to power cars

Option B
Use fossil fuels to generate electricity to power cars

Option C
Use renewable resources to generate power - - - - for cars AND every other damn need (of which "cars" are only a tiny slice)

Which is the best use of societal resources of time and money and expertise?


Conventional "wisdom" (ie that which is congruent with the PR machines) is "Option B"

SMFH.

Renewables are not yet able to compete with conventional power sources in the broader market. Will they dominate the market eventually ? Maybe. The best hope for a power source that can replace what we now use to generate power with our existing energy infrastructure is fusion. Fusion is still probably a couple of decades away ( although this time it actually might be true ).
For solar and wind to really work, they need energy storage to deal with their intermittent nature. Wind, in my mind, is poor option in terms of large scale application. There are plenty of wind farms in my area. They are ugly and inefficient. If the government is going to subsidize an energy source, at least solar doesn't involve ruining the amount of land needed for wind farms and it doesn't kill everything that flies.

 

[roswelllion]

Thanks for clearing that up Rumble. I agree about the 0-60 issue. Can't figure out why anyone not racing "needs to do that kind of speed." I was just repeating what my buddy told me. Obviously he loaded it up but since his stepdaughter worked their he went with the intent to buy. Had it been around $120,000 he probably would have gone for it.

Me I am a simple guy. If I want a green car I'll buy a Fusion hybrid and take 3 around the world trips

 

[rumble_lion]

Thanks for clearing that up Rumble. I agree about the 0-60 issue. Can't figure out why anyone not racing "needs to do that kind of speed." I was just repeating what my buddy told me. Obviously he loaded it up but since his stepdaughter worked their he went with the intent to buy. Had it been around $120,000 he probably would have gone for it.

Me I am a simple guy. If I want a green car I'll buy a Fusion hybrid and take 3 around the world trips

Yeah, the ludicrous option is like 10k and it shaves a few tenths of second off the 0-60 time. I'm not sure how anyone thinks they have to have that.....

 

[rumble_lion]

Thanks for clearing that up Rumble. I agree about the 0-60 issue. Can't figure out why anyone not racing "needs to do that kind of speed." I was just repeating what my buddy told me. Obviously he loaded it up but since his stepdaughter worked their he went with the intent to buy. Had it been around $120,000 he probably would have gone for it.

Me I am a simple guy. If I want a green car I'll buy a Fusion hybrid and take 3 around the world trips

This guy street races a model s p100d. He stripped the interior and mounted light weight wheels and racing tires.

 

[Locolion]

Locolion,
He is neither. He was CEO of Kia North America and has successfully bought and sold 2 companies since then. Net worth probably north of 15 million. His stepdaughter
works at the Tesla store.
But don't let facts get in the way of your blindness.

Yeah - is that right??? What an interesting resume. You can buy yours for $150k. I own a Tesla S - spent $113k. First hand experience. Anything else ya wanna know?

 

[roswelllion]

Yeah - is that right??? What an interesting resume. You can buy yours for $150k. I own a Tesla S - spent $113k. First hand experience. Anything else ya wanna know?

Loco,
Why are such an a$$hat about this? I simply posted my friend spec'd out a Model X and it was $150k. I didn't say they all were $150,000. Then you called my comment bullshit and him dumb and lazy. All I said is he is neither and has had a very successful career primarily in the automotive industry so he knows how to spec out a car and if he thought it was worth $150,000 he could pretty much buy it with no second thoughts. Rumble who knows pretty much all there is to know about Tesla agreed with me.

I have no beef with Tesla. I still question if their business model will work but if it does great. My only beef is with the govt giving you a $7,500 rebate that guys like me who think a vehicle is simply a means of transportation have to pay for. Now if the govt wants to give me a rebate for my next cruise as long as i take a "green" cruise ship maybe I'll be okay.

 

[troutrus]

Can't afford a new one. Figured I would hold off a few years and wait for the used market to develop. Interest lies mostly in protecting Mother Earth. Now that it's been determined that climate change is a hoax, I've lost interest.

 

[lein]

Um you treat them as mutually exclusive when--- look at that---- you can do both spending on vehicle technology TO BE non dependent on fossil is far better posion than spending it on Gas guzzlers that will always be 100%

its called progressing moving forward

by the way you ignore certain facts about A who's subsidizing?

--GOVT loans paid back by Tesla with interest EARLY
--You fail to mention all the wonderful Hummer and some Escalades that get a subsidy or did get a subsidy. GM pay any of that back to the GOVT?? huge imapct on fossil fuel usage so I would say this is a negative
-- the goal if you have been paying attention is to move to solar so your 80% should become 20%

Sure when one can put solar in a container and transport it around like gas

 

[Lion78]

Sure when one can put solar in a container and transport it around like gas

They call it a battery.

 

[psuro]

They call it a battery.

Some people are the donut. Some are the squished munchkin.

 

[rumble_lion]

Loco,
Why are such an a$$hat about this? I simply posted my friend spec'd out a Model X and it was $150k. I didn't say they all were $150,000. Then you called my comment bullshit and him dumb and lazy. All I said is he is neither and has had a very successful career primarily in the automotive industry so he knows how to spec out a car and if he thought it was worth $150,000 he could pretty much buy it with no second thoughts. Rumble who knows pretty much all there is to know about Tesla agreed with me.

I have no beef with Tesla. I still question if their business model will work but if it does great. My only beef is with the govt giving you a $7,500 rebate that guys like me who think a vehicle is simply a means of transportation have to pay for. Now if the govt wants to give me a rebate for my next cruise as long as i take a "green" cruise ship maybe I'll be okay.

$7,500 rebate that guys like me who think a vehicle is simply a means of transportation have to pay for.

You are not paying for it. It's a tax rebate. And you don't have to buy a Tesla to get one.

 

[rumble_lion]

Can't afford a new one. Figured I would hold off a few years and wait for the used market to develop. Interest lies mostly in protecting Mother Earth. Now that it's been determined that climate change is a hoax, I've lost interest.

They are holding their value pretty good. Even non drivable wrecked Tesla's are going for 30k.

I'll wait for the model 3 to become available.

 

[roswelllion]

$7,500 rebate that guys like me who think a vehicle is simply a means of transportation have to pay for.

You are not paying for it. It's a tax rebate. And you don't have to buy a Tesla to get one.

Rumble
Unless you think the govt prints money I am paying for the rebate. I am aware that you don't have to buy a Tesla to get one. While not a big proponent of any rebates I am okay with rebates on cars under $40,000. Anyone who can afford a Model S or X or Audii or BMW high end electric car either has a lot more money or a lot less brains than I do and in either case they don't need my subsidy.

 

[rumble_lion]

Rumble
Unless you think the govt prints money I am paying for the rebate. I am aware that you don't have to buy a Tesla to get one. While not a big proponent of any rebates I am okay with rebates on cars under $40,000. Anyone who can afford a Model S or X or Audii or BMW high end electric car either has a lot more money or a lot less brains than I do and in either case they don't need my subsidy.

Unless you think the govt prints money I am paying for the rebate

The federal government creates money when it spends. So yes they are in effect "printing" money. You are not paying for it.

How do you feel about "paying" for all those people that get to deduct their mortgage interest payments from their taxes?

How about people that deduct charitable contributions? What about people that deduct child care costs or local, state and property taxes?

 

[roswelllion]

While I take advantage of the home mortgage deduction on two homes why should the guy living in an apartment subsidize my homes. At least mortgage deductions are limited by income. Same with state and property taxes. Why should the guy making the same salary living in Florida pay more than the guy living New Jersey?
The only deduction I fully support are charitable, because I think charities in general do better work than the government.

 

[rumble_lion]

While I take advantage of the home mortgage deduction on two homes why should the guy living in an apartment subsidize my homes. At least mortgage deductions are limited by income. Same with state and property taxes. Why should the guy making the same salary living in Florida pay more than the guy living New Jersey?
The only deduction I fully support are charitable, because I think charities in general do better work than the government.

While I take advantage of the home mortgage deduction on two homes why should the guy living in an apartment subsidize my homes. At least mortgage deductions are limited by income. Same with state and property taxes. Why should the guy making the same salary living in Florida pay more than the guy living New Jersey?

Keep fighting for it, you'll get there someday.

All things considered the mortgage interest deductions and the state and local tax write offs are probably 1000 times larger than the one for electric cars.

You will also be happy to know the electric car tax deduction automatically goes away for any manufacture that sells more than 200,000 cars. You should probably focus your rage on all the other deductions that are out there.

 

[PSU_Chicago]

Wife put the deposit down today. I got to drive the car including the auto pilot function. Very nice car, great handling, acceleration, low noise ..... Should be able to pick it up in ~ 1 week.

 

[bjf1991]

The federal government creates money when it spends. So yes they are in effect "printing" money. You are not paying for it.
?

Probably "test board" material (from what I hear.... I've never visited there).....
but that may qualify as one of the dumbest statements in the history of ever.

 

[rumble_lion]

Probably "test board" material (from what I hear.... I've never visited there).....
but that may qualify as one of the dumbest statements in the history of ever.

That is the way it works plain and simple.

Try this, find the federal government's checking account. You can't because it doesn't have one. Everyone else who wants to own dollars has to have one. Unlike state and local governments the federal government operates outside the banking system. When it spends money like when it pays a social security recipient the treasury simply sends instructions to the social security recipients bank to increase the balance of the account. Viola, money has been created!

 

[Lion78]

Wife put the deposit down today. I got to drive the car including the auto pilot function. Very nice car, great handling, acceleration, low noise ..... Should be able to pick it up in ~ 1 week.

Congratulations and welcome to the family. Feel free to reach out as most owners are enthusiasts and will provide any advice they can.

 

[bjf1991]

That is the way it works plain and simple.

Try this, find the federal government's checking account. You can't because it doesn't have one. Everyone else who wants to own dollars has to have one. Unlike state and local governments the federal government operates outside the banking system. When it spends money like when it pays a social security recipient the treasury simply sends instructions to the social security recipients bank to increase the balance of the account. Viola, money has been created!

OMG

Sesame Street still on PBS?

 

[PSU_Chicago]

Congratulations and welcome to the family. Feel free to reach out as most owners are enthusiasts and will provide any advice they can.

Thanks Lion 78. You were very helpful. Thank you for sharing your experiences.