To Kerk or not to Kerk, that is the question

[Unbiased_football_fan]

Same could be said about Nick Lee. I believe they even talked about this last week on FRL.

Really not the same thing at all. FRL does some quite questionable "analysis" at times, its like none of them ever took a math class. Yes Nick Lee has more tournament losses than victories but his results are more a function of who he wrestled where Marinelli's are not. For each guy tournament losses are higher than dual losses because if you are good you will eventually face more good guys in a tournament, but that is where the comparison ends.

Prior to this year Lee was 1-2 in duals against the top ten, and 5-6 against top ten in tournaments - basically the same.

Marinelli was 8-1 against the top ten in duals, and 8-10 against the top ten in tournaments. Not the same thing at all.

Someone else mentioned Joseph losing in the tournament last year: 4 of his losses are in tournaments and 4 in duals, about 50/50. That is usually what you see with top wrestlers.

I'm not saying Marinelli is not going to do well, he is a heck of a scrapper. But you can't ignore the data when there is such a stark difference in results.

 

[midniteride]

Still can't believe he teched McFadden.

Wonder where he'd have to finish at ACCs to draw Marinelli in Round 2. 4th behind McFadden, Bullard, and Wentzel?

McFadden just isn't the same wrestler this year. After watching him through high school & following him at V T it appears that his heart just isn't into it and the fire is gone. Maybe he can rekindle it for the final run of his college career but he has been really disappointing so far this year.

 

[Callthestall]

Wouldn't use ANY unofficial losses to make a point. That could take us into territory that would cause some of you to get defensive about several ex-wrestler's records. Just sayin'.

A redshirt year is a benefit to almost every kid, as it's more than a chance to improve wrestling skills. It's a chance to transition to college without the added pressure of being a starter.

Agree with your comment about redshirt year but it also creates fexibilty for coaching staff and athlete.On occasion a coach and or athlete can decide to change the initial course of action. In recent Penn State history it has been a January decision. This seems to be a March decision. If it takes place the coaches must feel they have a decent chance at Championship.

 

[diggerpup]

Really not the same thing at all. FRL does some quite questionable "analysis" at times, its like none of them ever took a math class.

If the FLO guys like Nomad were good at math & analysis, they’d have different “jobs” than sitting in their mom’s basements talking about wrestling.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

 

[Diego Badman]

I’m going to ask a stupid question if I’ve missed something: has it been established that Kerkvliet and Nevills are going to wrestle off? Or, is this only a speculative topic?

 

[CholleyVandine]

Same could be said about Nick Lee. I believe they even talked about this last week on FRL.

4 of Spencer Lee's career 5 losses have come at tournaments. Maybe they were thinking of him?

 

[jrd23psu]

Agree with your comment about redshirt year but it also creates fexibilty for coaching staff and athlete.On occasion a coach and or athlete can decide to change the initial course of action. In recent Penn State history it has been a January decision. This seems to be a March decision. If it takes place the coaches must feel they have a decent chance at Championship.

I would bet that if you ask the staff they believe they have a shot at the title every year. I don’t think they make decisions based on whether they think they can win because they always believe they can win. I think they expect to win actually. That’s how great athletes and great coaches approach things. They expect to win. It’s likely one of the reasons Cael has been as successful as he has as an athlete and a coach. I think this is part of the intangibles he instills in our guys and is why they always compete at such a high level. It’s because the expectation is to win. It doesn’t always happen but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the expectation.

 

[RandyL]

I’m going to ask a stupid question if I’ve missed something: has it been established that Kerkvliet and Nevills are going to wrestle off? Or, is this only a speculative topic?

That is an excellent question, Diego.

 

[crablegs1]

Really not the same thing at all. FRL does some quite questionable "analysis" at times, its like none of them ever took a math class. Yes Nick Lee has more tournament losses than victories but his results are more a function of who he wrestled where Marinelli's are not. For each guy tournament losses are higher than dual losses because if you are good you will eventually face more good guys in a tournament, but that is where the comparison ends.

Prior to this year Lee was 1-2 in duals against the top ten, and 5-6 against top ten in tournaments - basically the same.

Marinelli was 8-1 against the top ten in duals, and 8-10 against the top ten in tournaments. Not the same thing at all.

Someone else mentioned Joseph losing in the tournament last year: 4 of his losses are in tournaments and 4 in duals, about 50/50. That is usually what you see with top wrestlers.

I'm not saying Marinelli is not going to do well, he is a heck of a scrapper. But you can't ignore the data when there is such a stark difference in results.

I still think your conclusion is off. At Midlands, Marinelli is 4-0 against top 10 opponents. The tournament losses are all at Big 10 and NCAA.

You have to consider whether or not Marinelli may wear down through the year and no longer be at peak performance at the end of the season.

Even with your data, it doesn’t necessarily lead to the conclusion that Marinelli is simply a bad tournament wrestler.

 

[Dogwelder]

... At Midlands, Marinelli is 4-0 against top 10 opponents. The tournament losses are all at Big 10 and NCAA.

You have to consider whether or not Marinelli may wear down through the year and no longer be at peak performance at the end of the season.

Even with your data, it doesn’t necessarily lead to the conclusion that Marinelli is simply a bad tournament wrestler.

Wow, if Marinelli’s ~early-season tournament performance is not bad at all, per crablegs, then that means his post-season tournament performance is even worse than UFF’s data suggests (because averaging). Win-win! You’re both right. Thanks guys! Woo hoo!

 

[Gebmo]

I still think your conclusion is off. At Midlands, Marinelli is 4-0 against top 10 opponents. The tournament losses are all at Big 10 and NCAA.

You have to consider whether or not Marinelli may wear down through the year and no longer be at peak performance at the end of the season.

Even with your data, it doesn’t necessarily lead to the conclusion that Marinelli is simply a bad tournament wrestler.

Interesting how we all see things differently. I did not see UFF as saying Marinelli is a bad tournament wrestler. He is after all a 2 time AA and has a better head to head against top 10 than Lee overall as he pointed out.

What he did say is that the comparison Ed Quinn made with Nick Lee is not a valid one as per the stats. To me, that is what someone could agree or disagree with.

Marinelli looks to me to have grown in the area he needed to....Mental. Time will tell if that is true.

 

[Dogwelder]

If the FLO guys like Nomad were good at math & analysis, they’d have different “jobs” than sitting in their mom’s basements talking about wrestling.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Well .. the Car Talk brothers were MIT math studs, but they chose to sit around talking about cars. So there is at least a one-in-100^4-million chance ... that 4 FRL guys are all mathy.

 

[nerfstate]

Well .. the Car Talk brothers were MIT math studs, but they chose to sit around talking about cars. So there is at least a one-in-100^4-million chance ... that 4 FRL guys are all mathy.

Spey seems to like math, but struggles at with attachment to his math.

 

[a_mshaffer]

The Bull is tough as nails and very good. Maybe him losing at NCAAs is simply bad luck or an anomaly. Maybe something has happened to him by coincidence in March. I use to get the flu every March.. These guys are good and the difference between winning and losing can be nothing more than a judgement call or being out of bounds by inches... Best of 3 would always be interesting!

 

[Dogwelder]

... Maybe him losing at NCAAs is simply bad luck or an anomaly. Maybe something has happened to him by coincidence in March. I use to get the flu every March..

Let’s hope Marinelli+postseason is more like flu+March, which is probably more like a causal relationship, and less like coincidence.

 

[VictoryWePredict4Thee]

That is an excellent question, Diego.

I don't thibk you guys understand how good Kerk is.

 

[jrd23psu]

I don't thibk you guys understand how good Kerk is.

I do. I think he is on par with Paris and Gable. I think we are entering an era of HWT where smaller or more athletic guys are going to rule the weight and the bigger bangers are going to be on the outside looking in. This is why I think Kerk, Paris, and Gable would be the top three. They can move like 97lbers.

 

[RandyL]

I don't thibk you guys understand how good Kerk is.

Hey...why pick on me. It was HIS question !!!!

 

[Diego Badman]

Hey...why pick on me. It was HIS question !!!!

But, I understand how good Kerk is, but it doesn’t answer the question as to whether he is going to wrestle off for the spot at the B1Gs. Everyone is talking about where he would place, but it’s moot if he doesn’t compete for the spot.

 

[Callthestall]

I would bet that if you ask the staff they believe they have a shot at the title every year. I don’t think they make decisions based on whether they think they can win because they always believe they can win. I think they expect to win actually. That’s how great athletes and great coaches approach things. They expect to win. It’s likely one of the reasons Cael has been as successful as he has as an athlete and a coach. I think this is part of the intangibles he instills in our guys and is why they always compete at such a high level. It’s because the expectation is to win. It doesn’t always happen but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the expectation.

I have to disagree with you. I do think coaches that are secure in their job do on occasion look towards the future on making decisions about redshirts.
Using Cael as an example, he chose to sit Rethorford his 2nd year. By doing so it allowed Zain to improve and also made the team stronger moving forward. If he solely was putting out his best lineup, he would have wrestled Zain his true sophomore year.
It's not just Cael who makes these desisions but other top end coaches. I believe Oklahoma State John Smith is reloading this year by sitting a couple of his good recruits.
He can do that because of job security.

 

[aalion]

But, I understand how good Kerk is, but it doesn’t answer the question as to whether he is going to wrestle off for the spot at the B1Gs. Everyone is talking about where he would place, but it’s moot if he doesn’t compete for the spot.

No one knows for sure or has been able to confirm. Rumor is that he will go if NCAA rules he is eligible but it is just a rumor ( albeit one that seems to have more credibility than just a board driven pipe dream).

 

[Howdoyoulikemenow75]

Hey guys, So is Kerk Eligible or not has anybody confirmed yet.

 

[Diego Badman]

No one knows for sure or has been able to confirm. Rumor is that he will go if NCAA rules he is eligible but it is just a rumor ( albeit one that seems to have more credibility than just a board driven pipe dream).

Thank you.

 

[eddy line]

No one knows for sure or has been able to confirm. Rumor is that he will go if NCAA rules he is eligible but it is just a rumor (albeit one that seems to have more credibility than just a board driven pipe dream).

I thought it was confirmed that Kerk was ineligible and thus not wrestling in Big10s and NCAAs.

 

[nerfstate]

I thought it was confirmed that Kerk was ineligible and thus not wrestling in Big10s and NCAAs.

Not confirmed really. @Bill Watts UWF posted today sounding pretty confident that was the case, but we don’t know the source of the information. @bopper1988 has also suggested this, but said he was trying to confirm it.

 

[RoarLions1]

I have to disagree with you. I do think coaches that are secure in their job do on occasion look towards the future on making decisions about redshirts.
Using Cael as an example, he chose to sit Rethorford his 2nd year. By doing so it allowed Zain to improve and also made the team stronger moving forward. If he solely was putting out his best lineup, he would have wrestled Zain his true sophomore year.
It's not just Cael who makes these desisions but other top end coaches. I believe Oklahoma State John Smith is reloading this year by sitting a couple of his good recruits.
He can do that because of job security.

You’re missing the whole wrestler and family thing.

 

[PSU_Pride_93]

Not confirmed really. @Bill Watts UWF posted today sounding pretty confident that was the case, but we don’t know the source of the information. @bopper1988 has also suggested this, but said he was trying to confirm it.

For the record you are referencing Bill Watts as he was a first time poster with that post and a new member

 

[nerfstate]

For the record you are referencing Bill Watts as he was a first time poster with that post and a new member

Did I not say that?

 

[Ian]

Hey guys, So is Kerk Eligible or not has anybody confirmed yet.

How can he be? Didn’t he arrive in the middle of fall semester? I just can’t see this happening.

 

[PSU_Pride_93]

Did I not say that?

No you actually did not reference he was a new member as of Monday and that was his first post lol

 

[nerfstate]

No you actually did not reference he was a new member as of Monday and that was his first post lol

Oh, I see what you were aiming for now. I did name him, though. The question remains, is he truly UWF's Bill Watts?

 

[Callthestall]

You’re missing the whole wrestler and family thing.

I'm normally in agreement with most of your feedback but on this issue I'm confused.
I responded to a guy who was commenting about how coaches always want to win now scenereo. I gave an example of when Cael chose not to wrestle Zain for Zain's benefit but also for the future team success.
I truly don't understand what you mean by "the whole wrestler and family thing".
I'm not sure how that pertains to my comment.

 

[slushhead]

I'm normally in agreement with most of your feedback but on this issue I'm confused.
I responded to a guy who was commenting about how coaches always want to win now scenereo. I gave an example of when Cael chose not to wrestle Zain for Zain's benefit but also for the future team success.
I truly don't understand what you mean by "the whole wrestler and family thing".
I'm not sure how that pertains to my comment.

Your post implied the decision to redshirt Zain was made by Cael alone.

 

[Callthestall]

Your post implied the decision to redshirt Zain was made by Cael alone.

I still think Cael would set the sails with feedback coming from family. I would not think it works with family telling the coach what they want to do. My comment also was meant to include most upper tier coaches and how they look at current year and future years and the choices he makes about lineup. Someone responded a coach wants to win every match. I just believe on occasion coaches look long term.

 

[El-Jefe]

I still think Cael would set the sails with feedback coming from family. I would not think it works with family telling the coach what they want to do. My comment also was meant to include most upper tier coaches and how they look at current year and future years and the choices he makes about lineup. Someone responded a coach wants to win every match. I just believe on occasion coaches look long term.

There are some cases ...

Supposedly Mark Hall approached Cael to come out of redshirt.

Supposedly Kerk told Cael he's only wrestling for 4 years total, then focusing on 2024 Olympics and freestyle. (Though I'm less sure of this after watching his interview on the other thread -- if he were tanshirting in Columbus to gain strength and size, what changed?)

Known factual example (though not PSU): Pitt 125 Anthony Zanetta asked to shirt during his true SR year, because his brother Nick was committing there. Due to their age gap, Anthony's shirt + Nick competing as a true freshman enabled them to be teammates for the only time in their lives.

 

[Callthestall]

There are some cases ...

Supposedly Mark Hall approached Cael to come out of redshirt.

Supposedly Kerk told Cael he's only wrestling for 4 years total, then focusing on 2024 Olympics and freestyle. (Though I'm less sure of this after watching his interview on the other thread -- if he were tanshirting in Columbus to gain strength and size, what changed?)

Known factual example (though not PSU): Pitt 125 Anthony Zanetta asked to shirt during his true SR year, because his brother Nick was committing there. Due to their age gap, Anthony's shirt + Nick competing as a true freshman enabled them to be teammates for the only time in their lives.

I would also think that sometimes a redshirt is put into place for academic purposes.

 

[Creek Side]

Not confirmed really. @Bill Watts UWF posted today sounding pretty confident that was the case, but we don’t know the source of the information. @bopper1988 has also suggested this, but said he was trying to confirm it.

Well if Kerk isn't allowed to wrestle at least some of the guys over on HR won't continue to drown in tears. Deep down they were awfully concerned that would've tipped the scale back in our favor.

 

[RoarLions1]

I'm normally in agreement with most of your feedback but on this issue I'm confused.
I responded to a guy who was commenting about how coaches always want to win now scenereo. I gave an example of when Cael chose not to wrestle Zain for Zain's benefit but also for the future team success.
I truly don't understand what you mean by "the whole wrestler and family thing".
I'm not sure how that pertains to my comment.

Sorry, just saying it’s a whole lot more complicated than you suggested, that’s all. And every case is unique and different.

 

[El-Jefe]

I would also think that sometimes a redshirt is put into place for academic purposes.

Cael has said he prefers to not shirt those guys, to force them into a much more structured routine.

But that philosophy probably does vary from coach to coach.

 

[NittanyLion84]

I would not think it works with the coach telling the family what they want to do and demanding that the family pay for an extra redshirt year, when money is an issue.