USC connected to Robert E. Lee?

[GreggK]

Which of those listed took up arms against the United States?

Which of them helped Kill 400,000 americans?
and almost 300,000 of their own traitors.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Certainly no fan of Lee, but Traveller is a kick ass horse name.

 

[Obliviax]

Meh, I don't know. Perhaps my history is wrong here, but did Washington or Jefferson lead an army of thousands of traitors to kill 400,000 Americans.
But I don't know, maybe my history is a bit off.

So it's not about slavery but anyone who lived in the confederacy? That seems a bit nuanced for this movement.

 

[Obliviax]

Certainly no fan of Lee, but Traveller is a kick ass horse name.

We've gat a horse named 'Journey'

 

[GreggK]

With all these monuments and Civil War statues and memorials being torn down, I'm curious as to where the line gets drawn. Will Mount Vernon and Monticello be burned to the ground or razed? Maybe the Army will send a few M1/A2 Abrams Tanks to South Dakota's Black Hills and blow the faces off half the faces on Mt. Rushmore? For those on this board who - like this Pennsylvania boy - have lived in the south at some point during their lives, you know the pride some of the folks in Dixie take in having a great-great-great grandfather who was a Rebel in Lee's army or served under Stonewall Jackson, etc...It's gotta be a tough time for them these days. When the Washington Monument or Jefferson Memorial get torn down I think we may have a big problem.

Confused OldTiredLion, again, perhaps my history is wrong here. But did Jefferson or Washington kill 400,000 americans?
Did either one of them attempt to destroy our country?

 

[Obliviax]

Confused OldTiredLion, again, perhaps my history is wrong here. But did Jefferson or Washington kill 400,000 americans?
Did either one of them attempt to destroy our country?

So other statues are ok, just not Lees? You'd better put out a memo on that. Heck, Lincoln's was vandalized the other day

 

[BoulderFish]

So it's not about slavery but anyone who lived in the confederacy? That seems a bit nuanced for this movement.

Did 'anyone who lived in the confederacy,' lead armies?

 

[lein]

Guy Fawkes was a traitor. They have an entire day named after him in the UK.
His mask is also very prominent today.

It's interesting how the Guy Fawkes mask is popular in the same group as those who want to tear down Lee statues.

LdN

There is also a Guy Fawkes statue in Britain, along with a Thomas Paine statue and the Ben Franklin house.

 

[Obliviax]

Did 'anyone who lived in the confederacy,' lead armies?

Sargent's, captains, senators etc did. Why pick on Lee? Besides only you guys are picking on Lee only...the movement isn't limited to Lee. See Chris Columbus and Lincolns statue being defaced as well

 

[OldTiredLion]

Confused OldTiredLion, again, perhaps my history is wrong here. But did Jefferson or Washington kill 400,000 americans?
Did either one of them attempt to destroy our country?

I'm not quite sure of the point you're trying to make. Obviously both were long dead by the Civil War. However both were slave owners, which seems to be the hot-button issue these days.

 

[SR108]

Which of those listed took up arms against the United States?

I'm a bit confused, I thought slavery was the issue. I thought the statues and monuments were symbols of white supremacy.

 

[GreggK]

So other statues are ok, just not Lees? You'd better put out a memo on that. Heck, Lincoln's was vandalized the other day

The Confederacy is responsible for the deaths of more americans than the Nazi's were. Think about that. And yet, it would be unthinkable for a Hitler statues to be erected all around our country. It would be unthinkable for Germans to look back on their Nazi era and call it the "Lost Cause" and fly the Nazi flag next to their german flag.

Anything that is connected with the confederacy should have been destroyed. The attempt to try to change the history of the Civil war in the 1900s-1930s should have been stopped. The "Lost Cause" was a bunch of BS and anything associated with the Confederacy should be treated the same way as the German's treat the Nazi's. I am sorry, but if you defeat an enemy on the battlefield, an enemy who is a bunch of traitors no less, you wipe out all of the symbols. You destroy them and force them to rejoin you and become Americans again. You don't allow them to go back and pretend that their traitor ancestors were hero's or leaders of a Lost Cause.

Let me be clear here though, you allow them to memorialize their dead. The Nazi soldier memorial in france is a giant cross. It isn't a giant statue of Hitler riding a horse.

All of the other statues are of actual americans. Who didn't murder 400,000 Americans while trying to destroy the country.

 

[bmw199]

The Confederacy is responsible for the deaths of more americans than the Nazi's were. Think about that. And yet, it would be unthinkable for a Hitler statues to be erected all around our country. It would be unthinkable for Germans to look back on their Nazi era and call it the "Lost Cause" and fly the Nazi flag next to their german flag.

Anything that is connected with the confederacy should have been destroyed. The attempt to try to change the history of the Civil war in the 1900s-1930s. The "Lost Cause" was a bunch of BS and anything associated with the Confederacy should be treated the same way as the German's treat the Nazi's. I am sorry, but if you defeat an enemy on the battlefield, an enemy who is a bunch of traitors no less, you wipe out all of the symbols. You destroy them and force them to rejoin you and become Americans again. You don't allow them to go back and pretend that their traitor ancestors were hero's or leaders of a Lost Cause.

Let me be clear here though, you allow them to memorialize their dead. The Nazi soldier memorial in france is a giant cross. It isn't a giant statue of Hitler riding a horse.

All of the other statues are of actual americans. Who didn't murder 400,000 Americans while trying to destroy the country.

You need to read up on reconstruction and the point of it.

 

[Art]

I'm not quite sure of the point you're trying to make. Obviously both were long dead by the Civil War. However both were slave owners, which seems to be the hot-button issue these days.

Yes, Washinton and Jefferson were flawed men who owned slaves. But their statues stand to honor their other considerable accomplishments. What reason is there to erect a statue of Lee beyond him being a Confederate general and if there is why do those statues always portray him as one?

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

There is also a Guy Fawkes statue in Britain, along with a Thomas Paine statue and the Ben Franklin house.

Guy Fawkes' popularity today is mostly a result of the Anonymous movement and their use of the symbol as a representation of an anonymous, collective, distrust of the system/government. Alan Moore's graphic novel, 'V For Vendetta' (and the movie based off of it) is where the mask used today comes from. Certainly, Moore knows his history and knows the Brits used to wear versions of the mask on Guy Fawkes day, but the stylized version popular today comes from the graphic novel (wherein the titular character makes regular attacks on an oppressive government).

 

[TenerHallTerror]

we need more Missy Elliott statues

 

[LionDeNittany]

The Confederacy is responsible for the deaths of more americans than the Nazi's were. Think about that. And yet, it would be unthinkable for a Hitler statues to be erected all around our country. It would be unthinkable for Germans to look back on their Nazi era and call it the "Lost Cause" and fly the Nazi flag next to their german flag.

Anything that is connected with the confederacy should have been destroyed. The attempt to try to change the history of the Civil war in the 1900s-1930s. The "Lost Cause" was a bunch of BS and anything associated with the Confederacy should be treated the same way as the German's treat the Nazi's. I am sorry, but if you defeat an enemy on the battlefield, an enemy who is a bunch of traitors no less, you wipe out all of the symbols. You destroy them and force them to rejoin you and become Americans again. You don't allow them to go back and pretend that their traitor ancestors were hero's or leaders of a Lost Cause.

Let me be clear here though, you allow them to memorialize their dead. The Nazi soldier memorial in france is a giant cross. It isn't a giant statue of Hitler riding a horse.

All of the other statues are of actual americans. Who didn't murder 400,000 Americans while trying to destroy the country.

The problem is that it was the northern army that had great respect for Lee.

"Shushing a band that had begun to play in celebration, General Grant told his officers, “The war is over. The Rebels are our countrymen again.” Although scattered resistance continued for several weeks, for all practical purposes the Civil War had come to an end.

Lee is a countryman not a traitor.

LdN

 

[GreggK]

Yes, Washinton and Jefferson were flawed men who owned slaves. But their statues stand to honor their other considerable accomplishments. What reason is there to erect a statue of Lee beyond him being a Confederate general and if there is why do those statues always portray him as one?

Agree 100%.

 

[dawgduice]

That is not accurate. This statue of Washington stands in Trafalgar Square. Admittedly, it was a gift from Virginia in 1924, but the Brits accepted it and, obviously, prominently display it.

I did say I "think" there were none, because I was not sure. Thanks for the info. I do doubt they honor him as many honor Southern Generals and the Rebel Flag. In short, they are the WRONG kind of symbols used to further the WRONG agenda.
But, quite frankly , this only matters in the short run. Come on Genetic Engineering !!!!! Then we will all be the same color and no more DUMB

 

[LionDeNittany]

Guy Fawkes' popularity today is mostly a result of the Anonymous movement and their use of the symbol as a representation of an anonymous, collective, distrust of the system/government. Alan Moore's graphic novel, 'V For Vendetta' (and the movie based off of it) is where the mask used today comes from. Certainly, Moore knows his history and knows the Brits used to wear versions of the mask on Guy Fawkes day, but the stylized version popular today comes from the graphic novel (wherein the titular character makes regular attacks on an oppressive government).

I'm 100% aware of this. Fact is that Guy Fawkes Day in the UK during the 80s, we would burn an effigy of Fawkes in a bonfire.

Today, he is held as a hero.

Meanwhile, Margaret Thatcher who stood against the communists is considered a witch.

Time changes things.

LdN

 

[GreggK]

The problem is that it was the northern army that had great respect for Lee.
"Shushing a band that had begun to play in celebration, General Grant told his officers, “The war is over. The Rebels are our countrymen again.” Although scattered resistance continued for several weeks, for all practical purposes the Civil War had come to an end.
Lee is a countryman not a traitor.
LdN

Because we had Honor and THEY didn't. So Lee lead the armies of the south against the Americans and killed 400,000 Americans and was responsible for countless deaths of his own traitors and I am somehow supposed to believe he was a "countryman". You do not let your defeated enemies go an erect statues immortalizing their traitor Generals and Leaders.

Sherman should have finished what he started.

 

[SR108]

The Confederacy is responsible for the deaths of more americans than the Nazi's were. Think about that. And yet, it would be unthinkable for a Hitler statues to be erected all around our country. It would be unthinkable for Germans to look back on their Nazi era and call it the "Lost Cause" and fly the Nazi flag next to their german flag.

Anything that is connected with the confederacy should have been destroyed. The attempt to try to change the history of the Civil war in the 1900s-1930s should have been stopped. The "Lost Cause" was a bunch of BS and anything associated with the Confederacy should be treated the same way as the German's treat the Nazi's. I am sorry, but if you defeat an enemy on the battlefield, an enemy who is a bunch of traitors no less, you wipe out all of the symbols. You destroy them and force them to rejoin you and become Americans again. You don't allow them to go back and pretend that their traitor ancestors were hero's or leaders of a Lost Cause.

Let me be clear here though, you allow them to memorialize their dead. The Nazi soldier memorial in france is a giant cross. It isn't a giant statue of Hitler riding a horse.

All of the other statues are of actual americans. Who didn't murder 400,000 Americans while trying to destroy the country.

How do you feel about Lincoln, because his plan of reconstruction would have been a lot easier on the south than Jefferson Davis's or Grant's plan.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

Because we had Honor and THEY didn't. So Lee lead the armies of the south against the Americans and killed 400,000 Americans and was responsible for countless deaths of his own traitors and I am somehow supposed to believe he was a "countryman". You do not let your defeated enemies go an erect statues immortalizing their traitor Generals and Leaders.

Sherman should have finished what he started.

the real irony is that Lee was saved from the noose by his good buddy Grant

 

[LionDeNittany]

Because we had Honor and THEY didn't. So Lee lead the armies of the south against the Americans and killed 400,000 Americans and was responsible for countless deaths of his own traitors and I am somehow supposed to believe he was a "countryman". You do not let your defeated enemies go an erect statues immortalizing their traitor Generals and Leaders.

Sherman should have finished what he started.

Well apparently you are wrong. Grant says so.

You live in 2017 and you do not have perspective. Grant did.

LdN

 

[dawgduice]

Because we had Honor and THEY didn't. So Lee lead the armies of the south against the Americans and killed 400,000 Americans and was responsible for countless deaths of his own traitors and I am somehow supposed to believe he was a "countryman". You do not let your defeated enemies go an erect statues immortalizing their traitor Generals and Leaders.

Sherman should have finished what he started.

Harsh. BUT, Sherman recognized that the Southerners were some kind of "special". That has NOT changed much Hence the statues and flags.

 

[bmw199]

Because we had Honor and THEY didn't. So Lee lead the armies of the south against the Americans and killed 400,000 Americans and was responsible for countless deaths of his own traitors and I am somehow supposed to believe he was a "countryman". You do not let your defeated enemies go an erect statues immortalizing their traitor Generals and Leaders.

Sherman should have finished what he started.

Jesus, you really don't get reconstruction. The whole point of the war from the Northern side was to keep the country together at the outset. From there it evolved into purging slavery entirely. Once it was over the point was not to occupy the south but to be one nation again. You can't burn and pillege and destroy the respect of have of your country and expect to come out together holding hands.

Edit: I say that as someone whose family had a Northern General who we are quite proud of, and many others who fought for the North at varying levels. I also love the way Sherman fought, he had it right, but after it's over you have to bring everyone back in the fold.

 

[lein]

Because we had Honor and THEY didn't. So Lee lead the armies of the south against the Americans and killed 400,000 Americans and was responsible for countless deaths of his own traitors and I am somehow supposed to believe he was a "countryman". You do not let your defeated enemies go an erect statues immortalizing their traitor Generals and Leaders.

Sherman should have finished what he started.

The war would have happened with or without Lee. Who knows, the South might have picked a General who could have won.

 

[Player2BNamedL8r]

A friend and I were on a bus to the stadium for the PSU & Auburn bowl game in florida. We were decked in psu gear, probably the only ones on the bus. An auburn guy says to us "we're gonna whup you like we did in the civil war." No joke. We just kinda looked around for other people laughing, but nobody was. We just let it slide, as my friend was a minority and he wasn't looking for any southern justice.

As recently as the last 15-20 years, my cousin - who is a HS science teacher - started her career in a somewhat rural region of North Carolina. She has since moved on, but at that time, her district's history curriculum referred to the Civil War as "The War of Northern Aggression."

So yeah, there is still a bit of a grudge being held in many deep pockets of the South.

 

[GreggK]

How do you feel about Lincoln, because his plan of reconstruction would have been a lot easier on the south than Jefferson Davis's or Grant's plan.

Lincoln is a hero and a great man. I think letting to south off easy was a mistake, but even great men make mistakes.

 

[bmw199]

Lincoln is a hero and a great man. I think letting to south off easy was a mistake, but even great men make mistakes.

Yea, with you're plan it would have looked like 1920 Germany...how'd that work out?

 

[GreggK]

As recently as the last 15-20 years, my cousin - who is a HS science teacher - started her career in a somewhat rural region of North Carolina. She has since moved on, but at that time, her district's history curriculum referred to the Civil War as "The War of Northern Aggression."
So yeah, there is still a bit of a grudge being held in many deep pockets of the South.

Hahah the War of Northern Aggression. Absolutely pathetic, no wonder why so many people can't see what is clear as day.

 

[BoulderFish]

Sargent's, captains, senators etc did. Why pick on Lee? Besides only you guys are picking on Lee only...the movement isn't limited to Lee. See Chris Columbus and Lincolns statue being defaced as well

Any statues honoring traitors should have never been put up, and should come down, IMO. Any symbol representing the losers, other than to teach history, should be removed. They lost, and that means they don't get to fly their flags, etc. anymore.

I don't care enough to go demonstrate, but if there are people who do, more power to them and I will voice my support for their cause.

 

[Art]

How do you feel about Lincoln, because his plan of reconstruction would have been a lot easier on the south than Jefferson Davis's or Grant's plan.

Jefferson Davis had a plan for Reconstuction? Wonder how he planned to carry it out from Europe.

 

[Art]

Jesus, you really don't get reconstruction. The whole point of the war from the Northern side was to keep the country together at the outset. From there it evolved into purging slavery entirely. Once it was over the point was not to occupy the south but to be one nation again. You can't burn and pillege and destroy the respect of have of your country and expect to come out together holding hands.

Edit: I say that as someone whose family had a Northern General who we are quite proud of, and many others who fought for the North at varying levels. I also love the way Sherman fought, he had it right, but after it's over you have to bring everyone back in the fold.

Uh, yeah, maybe. Didn't quite carry over to prevent Jim Crow.

 

[BBrown]

With all these monuments and Civil War statues and memorials being torn down, I'm curious as to where the line gets drawn. Will Mount Vernon and Monticello be burned to the ground or razed? Maybe the Army will send a few M1/A2 Abrams Tanks to South Dakota's Black Hills and blow the faces off half the faces on Mt. Rushmore? For those on this board who - like this Pennsylvania boy - have lived in the south at some point during their lives, you know the pride some of the folks in Dixie take in having a great-great-great grandfather who was a Rebel in Lee's army or served under Stonewall Jackson, etc...It's gotta be a tough time for them these days. When the Washington Monument or Jefferson Memorial get torn down I think we may have a big problem.

How do you feel about Lincoln, because his plan of reconstruction would have been a lot easier on the south than Jefferson Davis's or Grant's plan.

It was some time after Booth killed Lincoln where some "southern sympathizers" finally realized that it was the worst thing that could have happened to the south.

 

[Obliviax]

I'm a bit confused, I thought slavery was the issue. I thought the statues and monuments were symbols of white supremacy.

Right. And

Any statues honoring traitors should have never been put up, and should come down, IMO. Any symbol representing the losers, other than to teach history, should be removed. They lost, and that means they don't get to fly their flags, etc. anymore.

I don't care enough to go demonstrate, but if there are people who do, more power to them and I will voice my support for their cause.

Your "opinion" is dully noted.

 

[SR108]

Yea, with you're plan it would have looked like 1920 Germany...how'd that work out?

It led to WWII.

 

[bmw199]

Uh, yeah, maybe. Didn't quite carry over to prevent Jim Crow.

I wouldn't argue it did. Took nearly 100 years to get some form of equality going.

 

[GreggK]

Yea, with you're plan it would have looked like 1920 Germany...how'd that work out?

My plan? Oh please tell me what my plan was? I said wipe out all of their symbols and anything ever having to do with the Confederates.
Force them to integrate and never allow them to go back on that. Perhaps it was hyperbole when I said Sherman should have finished what he started.

But I do mean that the spirit of the south should have been destroyed and they should have never been allowed rewrite history.

That is what I think people are missing here. Tearing down statues isn't rewriting history. Putting them up in the first place was rewriting history.

 

[Art]

I wouldn't argue it did. Took nearly 100 years to get some form of equality going.

Yes, and any number of the statues people want to tear down were erected in the 1960s-70s. Wonder why. Oh. yeah, folks in the South are slow.