USC connected to Robert E. Lee?

[Player2BNamedL8r]

We've gat a horse named 'Journey'

Just a city horse...born and raised in south Detroit. He took the midnight train goin' anywhere....

 

[BBrown]

As recently as the last 15-20 years, my cousin - who is a HS science teacher - started her career in a somewhat rural region of North Carolina. She has since moved on, but at that time, her district's history curriculum referred to the Civil War as "The War of Northern Aggression."

So yeah, there is still a bit of a grudge being held in many deep pockets of the South.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/maryland-moves-finally-scrub-northern-scum-state-song-n541071

 

[dawgduice]

The issue is that the statues and flags are the WRONG symbols. They are used to promote racism, NOTHING MORE.
If you are a racist you support such symbols. Be honest with yourself and recognize who you are.

 

[SR108]

Lincoln is a hero and a great man. I think letting to south off easy was a mistake, but even great men make mistakes.

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm

Maybe we should take down Lincoln's monument as well.

 

[bmw199]

The issue is that the statues and flags are the WRONG symbols. They are used to promote racism, NOTHING MORE.
If you are a racist you support such symbols. Be honest with yourself and recognize who you are.

LMAO, thanks for telling others who they are.

 

[bmw199]

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm

Maybe we should take down Lincoln's monument as well.

Oh that's the plan.... Just float on over to some of those DC left wing blogs.

 

[bmw199]

hyperbole when I said Sherman should have finished what he started.

Yup, that was what I was talking about.

 

[KnightWhoSaysNit]

My plan? Oh please tell me what my plan was? I said wipe out all of their symbols and anything ever having to do with the Confederates.
Force them to integrate and never allow them to go back on that. Perhaps it was hyperbole when I said Sherman should have finished what he started.

But I do mean that the spirit of the south should have been destroyed and they should have never been allowed rewrite history.

That is what I think people are missing here. Tearing down statues isn't rewriting history. Putting them up in the first place was rewriting history.

Agree.

I live in Arkansas now and find it troubling when I see symbols that honor the civil war South. I wonder how a black person sees these. In my opinion, whether to honor something via symbols or statues in prominent places comes down to what it stands for, or what (a person) was fighting for. As for the Civil War, my perception is that the South was fighting for their "way of life." There was obviously racial bigotry and hate, but my guess is most of the motivation was all about economics, i.e., free labor for farming.

 

[GreggK]

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm
Maybe we should take down Lincoln's monument as well.

Question SR. How many americans did Lincoln kill? My count is 0. You keep trying to change the subject because you know you are wrong to defend traitors.
So instead, you try to make our American Hero's bad. But of course, we know they aren't gods or infallible. It is the human condition.

But I can tell you two things Lincoln didn't do. Try to destroy the United States and Kill nearly 400,000 americans. (notice I don't count Confederates as Americans)

 

[phillybillyreprise]

There are Jefferson Davis counties in Georgia and Texas.

How about a "horse with no name"?

 

[Art]

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm

Maybe we should take down Lincoln's monument as well.

Again, Lincoln was a flawed man, but he is remembered and honored for leading the Union through the Civil War. Fortunately, people aren't punished for their thoughts otherwise we'd all be in trouble.

 

[Obliviax]

Lee's testimony to congress after the war on on secession and treason:

Q. ... Suppose a jury was impanelled in your own neighborhood, taken up by lot, would it be practicable to convict, for instance, Jefferson Davis, for having levied war upon the United States, and thus having committed the crime of treason?

A. I think it very probable that they would not consider he had committed treason.

Q. Suppose the jury should be clearly and plainly instructed by the Court that such an act of war upon the United States, on the part of Mr. Davis or any other leading man, constituted in itself the crime of treason under the constitution of the United States, would the jury be likely to heed that instruction, and if the facts were plainly in proof before them, convict the offender?

A. I do not know, sir, what they would do on that question.

Q. They do not generally suppose that it was treason against the United States, do they?

A. I do not think that they so consider it.

Q. In what light would they view it? What would be their excuse of justification? How would they escape in their own mind? ...

A. ... So far as I know, they look upon the action of the State in withdrawing itself from the Government of the United States as carrying the individuals of the State along with it; that the State was responsible for the act, not the individuals.

Q. And that the ordinance of the secession, so called, or these acts of the State which recognised a condition of war between the State and the general Government, stood as their justification for their bearing arms against the Government of the United States?

A. Yes, sir. I think they considered the act of the State as legitimate; that they were merely using the reserved right which they had a right to do.

Q. State, if you please (and if you are disinclined to answer the question you need not do so) what your own personal views on that question were?

A. That was my view — that the act of Virginia in withdrawing herself from the United States carried me along, as a citizen of Virginia, and that her laws and her acts were binding on me.

Q. And that you felt to be your justification in taking the course you did?

A. Yes, sir.

I am always amazed at how little people understand history. The United States were a bunch of independent states united to support common interests. While federal powers trumped states, states considered themselves autonomous for purposes that did not concern the feds. The civil war changed all of that to the point where states are almost needless. There wasn't even a federal income tax during the civil war.

At the same time, it wasn't just the USA grappling with Slavery. It was almost universally accepted in most of the world. France abolished slavery in 1794 (but it was allowed in French colonies for several more decades). Russia also abolished slavery/serfdom, in 1861. The western world largely abolished slavery with the Brussels Conference of 1890.

I am no big fan of the south, slavery or the leadership of the confederation. But we have to understand how different the world was at the time. The South was tied to slavery because you could only own land you could farm. If you couldn't farm it, squatters were allowed to camp out and own land. So loosing slaves literally meant loosing the plantation. There was very little surveying and what was surveyed, was wildly inaccurate. Lincoln, in fact was a surveyor in his early years. The science of Surveying, and land ownership, was disrupting technology that let to abolishment of slavery.

Regardless, I simply don't know what statues will be allowed to stay and which will be torn down. If you tear down any statue associated with the South and Civil War, you remove a large part of our heritage....imagine Gettysburg, for example.

 

[dawgduice]

LMAO, thanks for telling others who they are.

Well, there is the 98 IQ thing. BUT, I was telling others to be honest about who they REALLY are. Most racists I have know, including family members, deny they are racist. It's their fear of God, if he exists But, really it's the NOT too smart thing.

 

[CF LION]

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm

Maybe we should take down Lincoln's monument as well.

In addition to those views, he also wanted to recolonize the slaves to Liberia and throughout the Caribbean.

 

[Obliviax]

The issue is that the statues and flags are the WRONG symbols. They are used to promote racism, NOTHING MORE.
If you are a racist you support such symbols. Be honest with yourself and recognize who you are.

I travel throughout the South. I've never met a single person who feels that way...not a single one. Maybe in 1960 or 1947, but not since the 1980's when I started to travel a ton.

 

[dawgduice]

LMAO, thanks for telling others who they are.

You're welcome Anything else obvious I can help with?

 

[GreggK]

Regardless, I simply don't know what statues will be allowed to stay and which will be torn down. If you tear down any statue associated with the South and Civil War, you remove a large part of our heritage....imagine Gettysburg, for example.

The statues were put up from 1890-1920 in order to rewrite history. To promote the idea of the "Lost Cause".
That isn't our heritage nor what we should be honoring.

 

[Obliviax]

Well, there is the 98 IQ thing. BUT, I was telling others to be honest about who they REALLY are. Most racists I have know, including family members, deny they are racist. It's their fear of God, if he exists But, really it's the NOT too smart thing.

The worst racists I ever met worked at car factories in the East and Midwest.

 

[Art]

There are Jefferson Davis counties in Georgia and Texas.

How about a "horse with no name"?

Which leads to the question why would states to which Davis had no real connection name counties after him? The only answer I can come up with ain't a good one.

 

[Art]

The worst racists I ever met worked at car factories in the East and Midwest.

Which ones have statues built to honor their racism?

 

[Obliviax]

Which leads to the question why would states to which Davis had no real connection name counties after him? The only answer I can come up with ain't a good one.

umm....he was their president? I'd say that was a connection. Why does Ohio have a city named Columbus?

 

[Obliviax]

Which ones have statues built to honor their racism?

WV's Senator Byrd comes to mind. Are you suggesting that central PA, for example, is more or less racist than Fairfax County VA? Atlanta, GA? Birmingham, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Memphis, Charlotte?

 

[bmw199]

Question SR. How many americans did Lincoln kill? My count is 0. You keep trying to change the subject because you know you are wrong to defend traitors.
So instead, you try to make our American Hero's bad. But of course, we know they aren't gods or infallible. It is the human condition.

But I can tell you two things Lincoln didn't do. Try to destroy the United States and Kill nearly 400,000 americans. (notice I don't count Confederates as Americans)

The problem Gregg is that it's not changing the subject. The same people that started this movement to take confederate statues down are the ones that want to remove Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln too.

 

[BBrown]

The issue is that the statues and flags are the WRONG symbols. They are used to promote racism, NOTHING MORE.
If you are a racist you support such symbols. Be honest with yourself and recognize who you are.

My family has been in PA since the 1700's. I had a cousin that was a drummer boy in the revolutionary war and 2 relatives that fought and were wounded at Gettysburg (for the north) and died walking home.
Honestly the statues didn't and don't offend me and I am willing to bet 80% of the protestors don't even know who Roger Taney was or what the Dredd Scott decision was.
On the other hand I find the rebel and southern flag very offensive and I hate seeing it displayed, especially outside of houses in the North.

 

[CF LION]

There are Jefferson Davis counties in Georgia and Texas.

How about a "horse with no name"?

It felt good to get out of the rain?

 

[Woodpecker]

Or Lee Marvin. I loved the then came Flint movies.

James Coburn?

 

[Art]

The problem Gregg is that it's not changing the subject. The same people that started this movement to take confederate statues down are the ones that want to remove Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln too.

So all of the people who are in favor of taking down Confederate statues also want to take down those of Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln? I don't think so. Perhaps you should broaden your reading sources.

 

[BoulderFish]

I am always amazed at how little people understand history. The United States were a bunch of independent states united to support common interests. While federal powers trumped states, states considered themselves autonomous for purposes that did not concern the feds. The civil war changed all of that to the point where states are almost needless. There wasn't even a federal income tax during the civil war.

At the same time, it wasn't just the USA grappling with Slavery. It was almost universally accepted in most of the world. France abolished slavery in 1794 (but it was allowed in French colonies for several more decades). Russia also abolished slavery/serfdom, in 1861. The western world largely abolished slavery with the Brussels Conference of 1890.

I am no big fan of the south, slavery or the leadership of the confederation. But we have to understand how different the world was at the time. The South was tied to slavery because you could only own land you could farm. If you couldn't farm it, squatters were allowed to camp out and own land. So loosing slaves literally meant loosing the plantation. There was very little surveying and what was surveyed, was wildly inaccurate. Lincoln, in fact was a surveyor in his early years. The science of Surveying, and land ownership, was disrupting technology that let to abolishment of slavery.

Regardless, I simply don't know what statues will be allowed to stay and which will be torn down. If you tear down any statue associated with the South and Civil War, you remove a large part of our heritage....imagine Gettysburg, for example.

Ugh.

I guess we get obtuse Obli today. Yipee!

 

[GreggK]

So all of the people who are in favor of taking down Confederate statues also want to take down those of Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln? I don't think so. Perhaps you should broaden your reading sources.

Shhhh, it is their new talking point.

I want all Confederate statues taken down and replaced with statues of Sherman, Grant and Lincoln.

 

[Player2BNamedL8r]

Why does Ohio have a city named Columbus?

So ignorant dumbasses have a place to watch football on Saturdays??

ZING!!!!

 

[SR108]

Question SR. How many americans did Lincoln kill? My count is 0. You keep trying to change the subject because you know you are wrong to defend traitors.
So instead, you try to make our American Hero's bad. But of course, we know they aren't gods or infallible. It is the human condition.

But I can tell you two things Lincoln didn't do. Try to destroy the United States and Kill nearly 400,000 americans. (notice I don't count Confederates as Americans)

I believe you are missing the point I am trying to make. To be honest, I would support taking down all statues and monuments of anyone associated with slavery if it would truly end the racial divide in our country. I honestly yearn for the day that everyone no matter what color, ethnicity, or religion realizes and benefits from the freedom and opportunity that this country potentially offers. The fact that in 2017 we are still so divided actually makes me ill, and I worry for the future of my two sons and future grand children.

However, I doubt that taking down any statue or banning any flag is going to solve the problem. There is a powerful, strong political motive/industry to maintain the racial division and unrest in our country no matter what ground is gained. IMO, this whole debate is yet another successful tactic to keep the country divided.

 

[Art]

umm....he was their president? I'd say that was a connection. Why does Ohio have a city named Columbus?

Do they have counties named after Adams, Madison, and Monroe?

 

[Art]

I believe you are missing the point I am trying to make. To be honest, I would support taking down all statues and monuments of anyone associated with slavery if it would truly end the racial divide in our country. I honestly yearn for the day that everyone no matter what color, ethnicity, or religion realizes and benefits from the freedom and opportunity that this country potentially offers. The fact that in 2017 we are still so divided actually makes me ill, and I worry for the future of my two sons and future grand children.

However, I doubt that taking down any statue or banning any flag is going to solve the problem. There is a powerful, strong political motive/industry to maintain the racial division and unrest in our country no matter what ground is gained. IMO, this whole debate is yet another successful tactic to keep the country divided.

And the folks who want to keep the statues up are doing so out of a desire to unify all segments of American society?

 

[SR108]

So all of the people who are in favor of taking down Confederate statues also want to take down those of Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln? I don't think so. Perhaps you should broaden your reading sources.

Not all by any means, but surely you realize there are some activists that do.

 

[Obliviax]

Do they have counties named after Adams, Madison, and Monroe?

yes....tons in fact.

 

[Obliviax]

So all of the people who are in favor of taking down Confederate statues also want to take down those of Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln? I don't think so. Perhaps you should broaden your reading sources.

Lets look at the reverse of that logic, you think all people that want to keep statues of people like Lee up are in favor of slavery?

 

[SR108]

And the folks who want to keep the statues up are doing so out of a desire to unify all segments of American society?

You cannot legislate or decree the end of bias, prejudice and hatred. Do you believe that everyone who opposes taking the statues down is a racist?

 

[delcoLion]

Lets look at the reverse of that logic, you think all people that want to keep statues of people like Lee up are in favor of slavery?

No, but I think the vast majority of people of good will would agree that statues honoring any aspect of the confederacy should come down. I just don't want it done by a mob.

 

[BoulderFish]

No, but I think the vast majority of people of good will would agree that statues honoring any aspect of the confederacy should come down. I just don't want it done by a mob.

I agree with that. It's unfortunate that it's taken a mob to make the right thing happen in some places.

 

[Ranger Dan]

The Confederacy is responsible for the deaths of more americans than the Nazi's were. Think about that. And yet, it would be unthinkable for a Hitler statues to be erected all around our country. It would be unthinkable for Germans to look back on their Nazi era and call it the "Lost Cause" and fly the Nazi flag next to their german flag.

Anything that is connected with the confederacy should have been destroyed. The attempt to try to change the history of the Civil war in the 1900s-1930s should have been stopped. The "Lost Cause" was a bunch of BS and anything associated with the Confederacy should be treated the same way as the German's treat the Nazi's. I am sorry, but if you defeat an enemy on the battlefield, an enemy who is a bunch of traitors no less, you wipe out all of the symbols. You destroy them and force them to rejoin you and become Americans again. You don't allow them to go back and pretend that their traitor ancestors were hero's or leaders of a Lost Cause.

Let me be clear here though, you allow them to memorialize their dead. The Nazi soldier memorial in france is a giant cross. It isn't a giant statue of Hitler riding a horse.

All of the other statues are of actual americans. Who didn't murder 400,000 Americans while trying to destroy the country.

These confederate statues are in southern states, not in the north, so your analogy for having statues of Hitler in the US is ridiculous. Also, I can tell you that in small town Germany, they do have plaques, memorials, and otherwise honor the local citizens who fought for Hitler in WWII.