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A National title with 1 champ, or take 2nd with 4 champs???

backdrft76 said:
Last night I felt like we had just won the national championship. I can't remember the last time I was so pumped up, jacked up on adrenaline, and laying there in bed for 2 hours unable to fall asleep. Paying for it this morning. Still feel like I'd trade a team title for what we witnessed yesterday. And I'd tell any Iowa fan today and going forward that while they may haven gotten first place, we won the Tournament.
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It reminds me of our sailing regatta mantra. "We may not win the trophy, but we always win the party!"
 
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I always felt the team component of wrestling was just for us windbags to debate on this here message board. Wrestling’s still ultimately an individual sport to me. If I’m a stud recruit, I’m watching last night saying “I wanna win on Saturday night. Those PSU kids were having the time of their lives while Iowa was basically moping in the corner” So yeah, in a vacuum, maybe the team title is still the goal, but after winning 8 out of 9 and most likely being king of the hill again for the foreseeable future, the 4 for 4 was a helluva good time.
 
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It's not just that PSU won 4 titles to 1, it's that they were 4-4 in the finals compared to 1-3, it's that PSU was 3-0 head-to-head in the tournament, it's that PSU won both head-to-head finals as underdogs. By every objective measure except the points formula, Penn St was the better team, and having that on display in the finals was awesome. It definitely felt like a win.
 
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I like to watch our guys reach their potential.........so yesterday was a great day. If we get enough guys reaching their potential, the team stuff with work out.

Think back to November........1) we wrestled 2) the kids got better 3) four champions, 4) we chased Iowa down like dogs. Most of all, complete class.

Like Cael said, he has to do a better job............. ;)

Friday was agonizing with injuries to Brady and Robbie.......but Saturday is a new day.
 
I would rather be undefeated on Saturday night in the finals then have the team title. Sure there are team results but this is an individual sport. With great individual performances come team successes too. I can look back and remember how I felt when Q lost, seemed like that moment ruined the entire championship. When Taylor lost to Bubba and Dake, Nico losing. I know I was happy with the team title as a fan but it was an empty feeling because you know how bad those losses hurt. Last night night have been one of the top moments for me as a PSU wrestling fan, even without the team title.
 
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RoarLions1 said:
I just want the guys to have fun, and wrestle with the effort that is the result of their training. While last night was euphoric by the time Aaron was finished, and it was a finals to behold, the "event" is the crown jewel of wrestling, and winning IT is the goal of the coaches/program. Years from now, it'll be the team championship that will be remembered most by the masses, though we'll (PSU fans) have the very fond memories of having four champions.

Bottom line for me is that I'll not answer the question, except to say it's never going to be an either/or for me.
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Doesnt it get tiresome riding that fence?🧐
 
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PennStateTurf2002 said:
I would rather be undefeated on Saturday night in the finals then have the team title. Sure there are team results but this is an individual sport. With great individual performances come team successes too. I can look back and remember how I felt when Q lost, seemed like that moment ruined the entire championship. When Taylor lost to Bubba and Dake, Nico losing. I know I was happy with the team title as a fan but it was an empty feeling because you know how bad those losses hurt. Last night night have been one of the top moments for me as a PSU wrestling fan, even without the team title.
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Hell, Bo AND Nolf lost on the same night LONGGGGG ago.
 
sstark46 said:
As an Iowa fan, I'd rather the 4 individual champions. I'm happy with the team title, no doubt, but jealous of your guys' continued success on Friday and Saturday nights, and already nervous about our chances to repeat next year
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No need to be nervous, we got it next season😉🤼‍♂️🏅
 
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I always love reading comments like some of these. It's like some of you tossed out the importance of winning the team title. It's an individual sport now right?

I feel bad that Kemerer and Eierman lost of course. That's a testiment to how good Lee and the young Starocci are. Marinelli can't catch a break and more ACL trouble for Spencer. Yeah a little bittersweet.

But I am glad to see the whole Hawkeye team put up points and take the title. That medal round for Iowa was legit. This should have happened a year ago and hopefully it does next year.. Go Hawks! We are here to stay even if you hate us ;)

(Oh and btw thank you for taking out Fix! I rather enjoyed that one)
 
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WildTurk said:
I always love reading comments like some of these. It's like some of you tossed out the importance of winning the team title. It's an individual sport now right?

I feel bad that Kemerer and Eierman lost of course. That's a testiment to how good Lee and the young Starocci are. Marinelli can't catch a break and more ACL trouble for Spencer. Yeah a little bittersweet.

But I am glad to see the whole Hawkeye team put up points and take the title. That medal round for Iowa was legit. This should have happened a year ago and hopefully it does next year.. Go Hawks! We are here to stay even if you hate us ;)

(Oh and btw thank you for taking out Fix! I rather enjoyed that one)
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Hey, no doubt about it, Iowa scored the most points. The highs and lows of being a fan in the sport is pretty intense. There aren’t many schools they can legitimately aspire to the top of the team race. Iowa is every single year. i’m really looking forward to a spirited battle again next year. I sincerely hope that all the crushing injuries we were witness to this weekend are short-lived and become faded memory soon.
 
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RoarLions1 said:
I just want the guys to have fun, and wrestle with the effort that is the result of their training. While last night was euphoric by the time Aaron was finished, and it was a finals to behold, the "event" is the crown jewel of wrestling, and winning IT is the goal of the coaches/program. Years from now, it'll be the team championship that will be remembered most by the masses, though we'll (PSU fans) have the very fond memories of having four champions.

Bottom line for me is that I'll not answer the question, except to say it's never going to be an either/or for me.
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Yep, why not both?)
 
jack66 said:
Well, all I know is that I felt like a winner last night. It only took 5 minutes on HR to see they were trying hard to convince themselves they still won.
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Well, all I know is that I felt like a winner last night(because Iowa finished 1st of course) It only took 5 minutes on BWI to see they were trying hard to convince themselves they still lost.



;)
 
WildTurk said:
I always love reading comments like some of these. It's like some of you tossed out the importance of winning the team title. It's an individual sport now right?
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I think a lot of it has to do with two things. The first being watching four wins live and in the moment, with three of them being upsets. Even though I stated my preference for the team title, in the moment last night the team title was out of mind, out of sight. Long term, several years down the road, I suspect there will be more that would prefer the team title. Second, it’s only natural to look on the bright side of life. Heading into the weekend, the only was I saw Iowa losing the championship was if the team took a wrong turn in Albuquerque on their way to St. Louis. For me, the bright spot was that we were able to keep is close, especially given the situation behind Howard & Berge‘s exits.

Even with the confusing scoring, I still think that the individual championship tourney is a better representation of the best team than a dual tournament for many reasons.
 
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WildTurk said:
I always love reading comments like some of these. It's like some of you tossed out the importance of winning the team title. It's an individual sport now right?

I feel bad that Kemerer and Eierman lost of course. That's a testiment to how good Lee and the young Starocci are. Marinelli can't catch a break and more ACL trouble for Spencer. Yeah a little bittersweet.

But I am glad to see the whole Hawkeye team put up points and take the title. That medal round for Iowa was legit. This should have happened a year ago and hopefully it does next year.. Go Hawks! We are here to stay even if you hate us ;)

(Oh and btw thank you for taking out Fix! I rather enjoyed that one)
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Our Guardian Angel almost let us down in the Fix/RBY match if you know what I mean?
 
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Luckily it's a choice made for us by the wrestlers, but how you feel about it is a kind of Rorschach test, measuring how your expectations met with reality. I never expected a team title this year, and I doubt many other did, and that expectation didn't change at any point during the weekend, even after Marinelli got hurt. I also didn't expect four champs, though I thought RBY and Lee would have great shots to beat Fix and Eierman. (Starocci just looked a tier below Kemerer at the B1Gs, but I thought Kemerer burned himself last night by wrestling to not lose instead of to win.) Winning as an underdog is simply more memorable; measure how quickly you can recall Nolf's finals opponents versus Cenzo's finals opponents.

Team titles are evidence of the work everyone put in, and Iowa deserved it--they put in a lot of work and it showed throughout their lineup. Our lineup was spottier, but also quite young and less accordingly expected of them. But a team title is a specific destination, and to the extent life is less about the destination than the memories you collect along the way, last night Penn State made more memories, even if they didn't all add up to a team title.
 
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tikk10 said:
Luckily it's a choice made for us by the wrestlers, but how you feel about it is a kind of Rorschach test, measuring how your expectations met with reality. I never expected a team title this year, and I doubt many other did, and that expectation didn't change at any point during the weekend, even after Marinelli got hurt. I also didn't expect four champs, though I thought RBY and Lee would have great shots to beat Fix and Eierman. (Starocci just looked a tier below Kemerer at the B1Gs, but I thought Kemerer burned himself last night by wrestling to not lose instead of to win.) Winning as an underdog is simply more memorable; measure how quickly you can recall Nolf's finals opponents versus Cenzo's finals opponents.

Team titles are evidence of the work everyone put in, and Iowa deserved it--they put in a lot of work and it showed throughout their lineup. Our lineup was spottier, but also quite young and less accordingly expected of them. But a team title is a specific destination, and to the extent life is less about the destination than the memories you collect along the way, last night Penn State made more memories, even if they didn't all add up to a team title.
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Great post Tikk
 
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WildTurk said:
Well, all I know is that I felt like a winner last night(because Iowa finished 1st of course) It only took 5 minutes on BWI to see they were trying hard to convince themselves they still lost.



;)
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Given you had to wait all night to see a winner, I’m sure it felt good. Congratulations. I am always entertained by Brands sticking his nose in at exactly the wrong moment. Let Spencer have his moment in front of the mic by himself. He can handle it. If Brands really wanted to support Spencer at that moment he should have brought him a cheeseburger. One thing Cael never does is try to upstage his guys. How awkward for poor Spencer to have Brands slap a hat on his head only for Spencer to turn it backwards. I’ll bet it was a quiet ride back to Iowa.
 
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These 4 titles seem different than others in the past. All 4 were first timers, with Lee and CStar beating Iowa guys who beat them in the BIGs. RBY, Lee, and CStar were underdogs. Upperclassmen RBY and Lee finally getting the titles they've worked so hard for. Finally getting to watch Brooks do what we all knew he was capable of doing, winning it all.

If you keep the team results the same, these 4 feel much better than if we watched Zain, Nolf, etc... "just win another title".

The team race was much closer than expected. A full season of experience for the young guys very well may have flipped that result. Not to mention Kerk and Robbie getting very late starts due to injuries. There were so many big stories with this team, some great, some heartbreaking.

As I've stated before, Iowa better enjoy this one, cause I think the trophy is coming back to Happy Valley for the next few years at least.
 
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jack66 said:
Well, all I know is that I felt like a winner last night. It only took 5 minutes on HR to see they were trying hard to convince themselves they still won.
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I too came away feeling last night that I witnessed a dominant finals performance by one team that wasn’t declared the winner, because some algorithm told me what my eyes saw wasn’t correct. I only bring this up because I can’t think of another collegiate “team” sport where the second place team wins 40% of the individual championship competitions and the first place team wins 10% of them. Maybe it happens in swimming, golf, gymnastics, tennis? Not sure as I don’t understand team scoring in them well enough. And I get that bonus formulas encourage offensive performance which is good for the sport. I really don’t bring it up as sour grapes as Iowa won fair and square. It’s simply a question whether those in charge of the formulas need to take a hard look at them in order to prevent a repeat for any team in the future. I’d bet when they came up with the current team point formulas they never ran any trial calculations that forecast anything like this year.
 
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Like Roar, I will leave the either or part of the question on the table and just say I will take 4 champs every year and let the team standing chips fall where they might.

4 champs are not going to finish second very often.

Fun as hell tournament. Had it on 3 TVs, got to watch it with father and friends. It wasn't the same as being there, but for this year I am feeling OK with this whole weekend.
 
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Antaeus said:
I too came away feeling last night that I witnessed a dominant finals performance by one team that wasn’t declared the winner, because some algorithm told me what my eyes saw wasn’t correct. I only bring this up because I can’t think of another collegiate “team” sport where the second place team wins 40% of the individual championship competitions and the first place team wins 10% of them. Maybe it happens in swimming, golf, gymnastics, tennis? Not sure as I don’t understand team scoring in them well enough. And I get that bonus formulas encourage offensive performance which is good for the sport. I really don’t bring it up as sour grapes as Iowa won fair and square. It’s simply a question whether those in charge of the formulas need to take a hard look at them in order to prevent a repeat for any team in the future. I’d bet when they came up with the current team point formulas they never ran any trial calculations that forecast anything like this year.
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That is what separates wrestling from every other sport. Individual results vs team results. Despite what has transpired this year, I wouldn't change anything.
 
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Antaeus said:
I too came away feeling last night that I witnessed a dominant finals performance by one team that wasn’t declared the winner, because some algorithm told me what my eyes saw wasn’t correct. I only bring this up because I can’t think of another collegiate “team” sport where the second place team wins 40% of the individual championship competitions and the first place team wins 10% of them. Maybe it happens in swimming, golf, gymnastics, tennis? Not sure as I don’t understand team scoring in them well enough. And I get that bonus formulas encourage offensive performance which is good for the sport. I really don’t bring it up as sour grapes as Iowa won fair and square. It’s simply a question whether those in charge of the formulas need to take a hard look at them in order to prevent a repeat for any team in the future. I’d bet when they came up with the current team point formulas they never ran any trial calculations that forecast anything like this year.
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NCAA Tennis has separate individual and team championship competitions (more like the old wrestling "dual championships").

There was a similar situation around me in HS tennis several years ago when I still lived in NJ. The county championship had separate flight tournaments for the three singles and two doubles flights and one school district with two high schools were the top 2 schools in the county. The South HS was ranked in the top 3 in the state, seeded #1 in every flight, and had the state singles favorite playing #1. That kid won the flight 1 tournament easily while the North HS, who didn't have a strong #1 like that lost early in the tournament. The South flight 2 singles also won easily (and actually won NJ states when he was an upperclassman), but the North HS teams battled through the tournament and upset South in the finals in all three of the lower flights. At the end of the tournament, the North kids were jumping around celebrating like they just won the Super Bowl while it was South that had actually won the team points title. The South coach's quotes in the paper the next day sounded like they had lost.
 
Antaeus said:
I too came away feeling last night that I witnessed a dominant finals performance by one team that wasn’t declared the winner, because some algorithm told me what my eyes saw wasn’t correct. I only bring this up because I can’t think of another collegiate “team” sport where the second place team wins 40% of the individual championship competitions and the first place team wins 10% of them. Maybe it happens in swimming, golf, gymnastics, tennis? Not sure as I don’t understand team scoring in them well enough. And I get that bonus formulas encourage offensive performance which is good for the sport. I really don’t bring it up as sour grapes as Iowa won fair and square. It’s simply a question whether those in charge of the formulas need to take a hard look at them in order to prevent a repeat for any team in the future. I’d bet when they came up with the current team point formulas they never ran any trial calculations that forecast anything like this year.
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I think the current formula is good. It gives big points to the very top wrestlers at each weight but also allows for balanced strong teams to score enough to win. See Minnesota's win with no champions but ten AAs.
 
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Dogwelder said:
I think it’s not just the absolute result that matters. It’s whether the guys wrested well and up to their perceived capabilities. Since Eierman and Kemerer were 1-seeds and had beaten Lee and Starocci before, their performances were worse than expected, and so their fans are not happy even with the team title. Conversely, if Eierman and Kemerer had been underdogs, Iowa fans would probably be plenty happy with the same exact result.
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This one is bittersweet , but they’re really happy about the title they claim from last year when it didn’t really go down. Everything went their way in that one. 10 AAs, NCs and PSU sucked. It was epic
 
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