The AC system died on Thursday and I've been getting estimates from different HVAC companies. Any do's, donts, great brands, bad brands?? Also, what the deal with 10/10 warranties? Are they really full warranties? Thx.
Any recs on furnaces/ac systems?
- Thread starter Delco Lion
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Too bad CR isn't still around. You'd get a zippy response.
slightly undersize cooling and oversize heating. In cooling you want the compressor to run longer and colder to help dry out the air. if it is a little higher on temp it will most likely have a lower humidity. feels better. on heating you do not want to be low and if heat pump you do not want supplemental heating coil to come on. Get someone trust worthy. the brands are all intermixed made by afew and renamed by selling company. Go ground source if you can afford the extra upfront cost
After a metric ass-ton of research ten years ago, including pestering techs working in the trade, I replaced a 30yr old Williamson with a Trane SV95 (furnace) and added a Trane central air unit... the variable speed fans on the high-efficiency units are IMHO the only way to go... close second was RUUD / Rheem, American Standard... refused to look at Carrier because I hate Syracuse (and because they are junk)
Also did a ton of research a # of years ago - the big brands are Lennox, American Standard, Trane and a couple of others.
Goodman and RUUD/Rheem are seen as being more value brands (not that they can't be good as well, but they do make some compromises to allow for a lower cost).
Having said that - different models within a brand (such as Lennox) can differ in performance and reliability.
But just as important, if not more so, is getting a good installer (no matter the brand or model).
Goodman and RUUD/Rheem are seen as being more value brands (not that they can't be good as well, but they do make some compromises to allow for a lower cost).
Having said that - different models within a brand (such as Lennox) can differ in performance and reliability.
But just as important, if not more so, is getting a good installer (no matter the brand or model).
No No No No and No. Goodman’s are complete crap. They are sold by low-end “rip-off” contractors.
Manufactured junk, both A/C and heat
If you provide a zip code, I can probably steer you to brands and installers that should speak with.
PPB, my zip is 19342. Have learned several interesting things, all these companies use internal components manufactured by the same suppliers. Some manufactures own other HVAC companies and will sell identical systems under different names, and how critical instillation is in the performance and longevity of the system.
Unfortunately, the reviews of these systems is all over the place with wide ranging thoughts.
Unfortunately, the reviews of these systems is all over the place with wide ranging thoughts.
I wouldn't worry about brand as much as making sure you get a variable speed unit that the fan runs all the time. Variable speed will change the entire comfort and climate of your home. The fan running all the time constantly redistributes the air in the home making every room more balanced and typically only uses the same amount of power of a light bulb.
I guess you have bad actors where you live. I have had no problems in 9 years.Good contractor too.
Daikin Industries is the worlds largest maker of HVAC systems. They bought Goodman in 2012 and also bought Amana HVAC. I'm told their systems are all now somewhat identical. My parents bought a Goodman system 10+ years ago and have been pleased with it, but there are mixed reviews on the internet.
I've gotten estimates on Lennox, Amana, Luxaire, and Daiken. I have one more guy I'm talking to tomorrow who I've known for many years. It will be interesting to see what he recommends. On a scale of 1-10, I am looking at buying a system in the 7/8 range. I'm 60, and may only be in this house another 10 years. The Luxaire is 98% efficient and has a 16 SEER rating. 10/10 warranty and a lifetime warranty on the heat exchanger.
I've gotten estimates on Lennox, Amana, Luxaire, and Daiken. I have one more guy I'm talking to tomorrow who I've known for many years. It will be interesting to see what he recommends. On a scale of 1-10, I am looking at buying a system in the 7/8 range. I'm 60, and may only be in this house another 10 years. The Luxaire is 98% efficient and has a 16 SEER rating. 10/10 warranty and a lifetime warranty on the heat exchanger.
I just had 2 central air units installed recently. They're Lennox, and I'm happy with them. I did a lot a research; and like one poster already said, reviews and recommendations are all over the place.
The highest SEER ratings are only installed in the south (for the hotter southern climates) according to my installer. Anyways, I did get a good installer. The SEER rating was only about 13-14 if I remember correctly, and the good ones in the south go up to about 18, if I remember correctly. I live in the northeast.
Everything is great with the cooling now. Look at reviews in your area concerning the grading of the local installers. A good installer will explain all you need to know. Good luck with the process.
The highest SEER ratings are only installed in the south (for the hotter southern climates) according to my installer. Anyways, I did get a good installer. The SEER rating was only about 13-14 if I remember correctly, and the good ones in the south go up to about 18, if I remember correctly. I live in the northeast.
Everything is great with the cooling now. Look at reviews in your area concerning the grading of the local installers. A good installer will explain all you need to know. Good luck with the process.
I am a fan of @PSUTENN1. He’s a cool guy
what type system are you replacing? just a/c or is it a heat pump? "A" frame cooling coil on a furnace? all needed info. Been doing hvac design for 35 years and in that time all units have had there ups and downs. 16Seers is not that great in ait to air heat pumps anymore. I do commercial work. get a good service tec. many commercial outfits will have guys install units under the company name or moonlighting. Look up local reps for the manufacture and ask them who they recommend in your area. Reps make money on selling units, not the installation or maintenance
I see Lennox owns Ducane, Armstrong, Concord, Allied Air and Air Ease. It would be interesting to know if any of these home HVAC systems compare favorably to Lennox.
My landlord has been in the HVAC business for 42 years. His advice is to research the best and most reputable technicians in your area so they can give you the best suggestions based on your living space and power bill.
Given your time horizon, I fully understand your desire not to break the bank on a new HVAC system by choosing a lower SEER on the AC since you won’t be using it as much as your furnace. A key factor is ensuring that all of the components are properly sized and matched to each other ( e.g. Tons of cooling capacity on the AC, BTU’s on the heat, evaporator coil size and blower motor size and type...variable vs. two speed vs. single speed).
As you’ve learned, there are really only 6 or so companies that manufacture residential HVAC systems. Most all have multiple “brands” which are differentiated by differences in features, components and warranties.
- Trane / American Standard
- Carrier / Bryant / Payne
- Lennox / Ducane
- Rheem / Ruud
- Goodman / Amana
- York / Coleman
Consumer Reports just updated their reliability survey statistics in May 2018, but you need to be a subscriber (or know one) in order get access. I can’t imagine that the updated results are much different than what they published in 2014, which are available in the following link
http://www.essmwa.com/heating-cooling/2014-consumer-report-ratings-on-hvac/
As others have pointed out, the long-term reliability of the system is dependent on proper sizing and the quality of the installation. I’m a big fan of American Standard equipment. Very good quality at a slightly lower price point than the Tranes. As the above article mentions, Trane/Am. Std. have the most stringent standards regarding their authorized installation contractor network. I would use the below links to research and contact 2-3 highly rated authorized dealers in your 19342 area code. You can do likewise for any other brands of interest.
American Standard
https://www.americanstandardair.com/how-to-buy/find-your-dealer.html
Trane
https://www.trane.com/residential/en/dealer-locator.html
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I just had an American Standard system installed at the end of June. 15 SEER, silver series. I get an extra year on warranty, 11 total, because my installer has a 4.75 rating on Yelp. I gotta say, the installer was top notch. Also my electric bill has dropped significantly even with running it 2 degrees cooler than my old unit. Really quiet and the WiFi thermostats are pretty cool.
I forgot to include these two links that present good overviews of single vs. two vs. variable speed AC compression and two stage furnaces. As with most everything in life, complexity increases the cost.
http://www.pvhvac.com/blog/single-stage-two-stage-variable-speed-air-conditioning/
https://www.hannabery.com/variable-speed-info.shtml
Yes, variable speed is the way to go. Some of the estimates were not variable speed, and I can get that for $500 more.
Thanks Tom and Chickenman !!
Have been in Singapore this last month (still here) so have not been reading the board much.
I do agree with most of what I read, I would give anyone shopping for a/c, heat pump, gas furnaces this advice;
1. Ask the contractor for reference, 3 or 4 of his customers and then you actually call them and see what they say.
2. Lennox, Trane, American Standard...top end. Remember, buy cheap get cheap.
3. Standard equipment installers warranty is 12 moths all parts and labor, 5 years on parts. I think Trane offers a 10 year compressor warranty now.
The thing most people don't realize about warranty's is after the 12 months, you're going to pay labor for repairs, and these aren't working for free.
So there it is, use a company with a good reputation, and the choice of equipment is up to you. if you can find a multi speed compressor and fan for $500 more it's worth it......big time energy saver.
If you just want to heat and cool and don't need all the extras, the middle level units are a good choice.
This is just me, I'm not a big fan of Rheem/Rudd.
I like Carrier and Paine....good middle of the road price wise units.
Have been in Singapore this last month (still here) so have not been reading the board much.
I do agree with most of what I read, I would give anyone shopping for a/c, heat pump, gas furnaces this advice;
1. Ask the contractor for reference, 3 or 4 of his customers and then you actually call them and see what they say.
2. Lennox, Trane, American Standard...top end. Remember, buy cheap get cheap.
3. Standard equipment installers warranty is 12 moths all parts and labor, 5 years on parts. I think Trane offers a 10 year compressor warranty now.
The thing most people don't realize about warranty's is after the 12 months, you're going to pay labor for repairs, and these aren't working for free.
So there it is, use a company with a good reputation, and the choice of equipment is up to you. if you can find a multi speed compressor and fan for $500 more it's worth it......big time energy saver.
If you just want to heat and cool and don't need all the extras, the middle level units are a good choice.
This is just me, I'm not a big fan of Rheem/Rudd.
I like Carrier and Paine....good middle of the road price wise units.
A consistently poor performer when it comes to reliability. I would consider York as “builder grade”. I found the following info from Consumer Reports latest reliability analysis
Conventional AC Systems
Conventional central air conditioning systems are more common in regions with greater temperature swings, such as the northeast, and are used a median of five months a year. Our readers told us that they expect to get about 16 useful years of ownership no matter which brand they own.
In our survey, no brand stood out as being the most reliable, but on the other end of the scale, York and Rheem are among the less reliable makers. Around 1 in 4 of the systems from these brands is estimated to break by the fifth year of ownership; breakage rates so high that Consumer Reports cannot recommend them at this time.
Satisfaction. In general, we predict that most owners of a central air system will be completely satisfied with the performance of their system by the fifth year of ownership, regardless of the brand. Two-thirds of the owners of American Standard systems are likely to be completely satisfied with the performance of their AC system by year five. Owners of Goodman systems are predicted to be the least satisfied, followed by Rheem.
We found that satisfaction rates track closely to a brand’s reliability for both higher and lower satisfaction levels, meaning consumer happiness is strongly connected to reliability, as you might expect with a product so tied to comfort.
Parts that break. By the fifth year of ownership, the evaporator coil is the part most likely to break, with Ruud, Rheem, and York being the brands most susceptible to this problem. However, this problem is likely to affect less than 10 percent of all units by year five.
Yes, I already have concerns about what I am reading on York. I really do appreciate this type of feedback and input here.
I went with Luxaire. They are a Johnson Control company. 18 SEER system, variable speed, 98% efficiency, 10/10 warranty, $700 mfg rebate, $200 Peco rebate. Thanks for all the help. Getting the AC system put in tomorrow.
I visited the parents yesterday and they discussed getting a new HVAC system installed. Their house is 29 years old. Is now over 3,000 square feet with their most recent addition. The current system doesn't cool the upstairs at all (because it sucks), so they have been using window units in bedrooms when people visit. They would like to upgrade the entire system with a dual zone system so they only need to worry about the upstairs when people visit, vs. having a bigger unit cool areas that don't always need cooled.
The furnace is the original oil furnace and is starting to show it's age. The figure they will be further ahead to do everything all at one time. The furnace is probably the less important part of this solution since they heat the areas they spend their most time with a coal stove.
At any rate, their main question to me was how a dual zone system gets installed. I assumed since all of the duct work is in the basement, that the upstairs and downstairs ducts would be separated into two runs -- one for each zone. The person they spoke to on the phone said they'd need to install the system for the upstairs in the attic. Does this sound right? Or is someone trying to do more work than necessary in order to jack up the price?
The furnace is the original oil furnace and is starting to show it's age. The figure they will be further ahead to do everything all at one time. The furnace is probably the less important part of this solution since they heat the areas they spend their most time with a coal stove.
At any rate, their main question to me was how a dual zone system gets installed. I assumed since all of the duct work is in the basement, that the upstairs and downstairs ducts would be separated into two runs -- one for each zone. The person they spoke to on the phone said they'd need to install the system for the upstairs in the attic. Does this sound right? Or is someone trying to do more work than necessary in order to jack up the price?
It's complicated and very specific to this house and the existing ductwork. So probably best thing is to find 3 contractors and get three quotes. Best to get the quotes in September or October when the AC business is over the summer frenzy and contractors are trying to line up work for the fall.
If you want two zones, putting ducts in the attic is convenient, as long as you don't mind losing the attic space. But you can add ductwork from the basement -- it just means running it along walls, which you may or not want to do.
Another thing you might want to consider is leaving the system as it is but installing mini-splits upstairs. Then you can run AC upstairs only when the guests are there, saving money. Mini-splits are great -- the only downside is you have to give up a little wall space for the cooling/fan units. The big advantage is mini-splits do not need ducts.
If you want two zones, putting ducts in the attic is convenient, as long as you don't mind losing the attic space. But you can add ductwork from the basement -- it just means running it along walls, which you may or not want to do.
Another thing you might want to consider is leaving the system as it is but installing mini-splits upstairs. Then you can run AC upstairs only when the guests are there, saving money. Mini-splits are great -- the only downside is you have to give up a little wall space for the cooling/fan units. The big advantage is mini-splits do not need ducts.
They are just starting to think about this -- the HVAC guy found a small leak in something when doing his maintenance call, so they called in for an estimate and got into further discussions.
I'll take some notes off this thread and give them some ideas. Thanks.
Dear Delco LIon
So you went with a Luxaire and commented that it is made by Johnson Controls. York, which was criticized in this thread, is also made by Johnson Controls. I'm from York and was always brand loyal........until they told me I could no longer get parts for an 8 year old furnace. I now have Lennox
So you went with a Luxaire and commented that it is made by Johnson Controls. York, which was criticized in this thread, is also made by Johnson Controls. I'm from York and was always brand loyal........until they told me I could no longer get parts for an 8 year old furnace. I now have Lennox
I rolled the dice with Luxaire. I got a solid 10/10 warranty and feel the techs who put it in did a good job. The HVAC company was well regarded on Homeadvisor and other online sites that offer ratings. It would certainly appear Lennox is the top brand. I am turning 60, retired, and not sure how long I will stay in my house. I wanted a unit that on a scale of 1-10, was in the 7+ range, and I think the unit fits the bill.
A separate, smaller a/c only unit with the blower and ductwork on the attic would definitely do a good job.
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