I'm surprised you didn't know. It's in the NNNNNCAC by laws. Right next to "WE" deserve better.
Consider how bad the QB recruiting & coaching has been
- Thread starter Marylovesthelions
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Incompetent AD who had the sole authority to negotiate and complete a deal worth a minimum for 75 million....even though it was known she was retiring...no one....not an administrator nor a BOT committee....no one had any say in the matter. Pretty amazing that any moron would believe this.
No Kentucky QB has been picked in the NFL draft since 2008. Amazing that in less than a year, they turned Levis into a #1 draft choice (considering how badly the PSU Coaches screwed him up). So I have a hard time seeing where the current staff at Kentucky has a better track record of developing QBs.
Kentucky hasn't gotten a 4* QB (or better) since 2014.
Meanwhile, we've gotten loads of 4* QBs with the occasional 5* (Hack). Michael Johnson, Taquon Roberson, Clifford, Villeux, Michael O'Connor, etc.
Look at how awful Roberson -- a 4* recruit -- was in live action. Clifford is what he is after 5 years (and counting). Hackenberg regressed. Obviously too early to tell with Villeux and the incoming guys. But we've had far more talent to work with than UK. Not even remotely close.
Edit: I'm not saying UK develops QBs well, but we have absolutely no leg to stand on in this debate. Our QB development has been abysmal.
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Under the current regime, it seems as if the only players who progress are the ones like Dotson who are blessed with God-given top talent. It seems as if very few kids with lesser God-given talent are coached-up like at many other programs.
A reasonable case can be made that our guys punch above their weight at the next level. Godwin, Gesicki, Freiermuth, Barkley (pre-injury), Sanders, Parsons, etc. Even guys like Nick Scott, Amani O, Grant Haley, etc. probably overperformed vs. their status as recruits.
(some of those guys were pretty talented coming out of HS, too, so whether they're overperforming or performing to expectation is up for debate)
Guys like Journey Brown, KJ Hamler, Trace, etc. definitely progressed well. Have to give the staff credit where it's due.
But your point stands. D-line development, O-line development, LB development (outside of Parsons who was an insane prospect from day 1), and especially QB development aren't where they need to be.
Yes, because AK was a highly coveted prospect when he left Temple.
And the guy they credit with Levis improvement is already gone back to the NFL after one year.
Levis is the same QB we had, just playing behind a better OL and in a scheme that isn't using him like a battering ram. Watch the UGA game. His passing was limited to avoid INTs. At no point was UK ever a threat to win the game. They merely played in an ultra conservative fashion that didn't allow them to lose ugly.
For a program with no history of reloading and one that couldn't even throw a forward pass 2 or 3 seasons ago (go watch them with Lynn Bowden at QB running the Wildcat as the scheme), they have bought into the April May next year draft hype. New OC. 4 new OL. New WRs. Uncertainty at RB. That's not the preseason team I'm predicting to beat UGA in mid November.
I wish Levis had opted to stay. I appreciate why he decided to leave. I also know that 3 offensive coordinators at PSU chose Clifford over him. But the NNNNNCAC is never confused by facts. While they wish to crucify Clifford and the coaching staff, Clifford threw for more yards, in a season where he was injured for more than half.
Incidentally their career QB ratings are nearly identical.......but Levis is a first round pick and Clifford is an albatross.
If morons could fly, this place would be an airport.
Other than Levis.....and IMO the jury is out.....who went on after leaving the coaching dungeon of PSU to shine?
Hack couldn't keep a job in the NFL or the minor leagues. Nice kid, good soldier, straight out of central casting for a great qb.....until it really counted.
I think the staff did a pretty damn good job with Trace.....but that doesn't fit the narrative.
Bottom line, Levis is at Kentucky, their record has been 57-43 since Franklin came to PSU with 0 top ten finishes.
PSU has been 67-34 with 3 top ten finishes. I get it..."We" deserve better. Who said you play to win the game?
Kentucky is also 1-0 against Franklin-led PSU. And not even remotely on par with PSU in terms of tradition, prestige, resources, recruiting prowess, etc. So I would sure hope we'd boast a better record than Kentucky.
Note -- LSU went hard after Stoops. Not so much with Franklin. There's a reason.
It's curious that you mention Hack, because that's exactly the point. Came in as a highly talented 5* QB, and even showed that talent early on. He very clearly regressed under Franklin. And amounted to nothing in the pros. That's a damning indictment of our QB development.
Trace was a warrior. But looked a whole lot lesser of a QB without future pro-bowlers on his offense. He was good in 2018, hardly great. Clearly a step back from 2016-17 -- even before the injuries. He has thrown a total of 10 passes in the NFL -- completing 3 of them. Hardly an advertisement for PSU's QB development.
And then of course Clifford. Let's see if year 5 is where it all comes together, because as it stands it's another case of either stagnating or regressing as time goes on.
Those top-10 seasons are looking farther and farther away in the rear view mirror as we go forward. QB play might have something to do with that, no?
Hack was over rated period. 3 nfl organizations, personal coaches and he couldn't hold a starting job in the bush leagues.
There may be a reason (if its fact) that LSU didn't go after Franklin.....and its not his coaching record.
Yeah Babe Ruth was nothing without Lou Gehrig....you guys are precious.
I'm trying to understand if we are complaining about PSU record or QB's that didn't make it in the pros.
I guess Tebow, Matt Leinart, Steve Spurrier, Andre Ware, Danny Wuerffel, Eric Crouch etc. were just jerking off, cause they never starred in the NFL.
Notice: What makes a winning QB in college does not always translate to NFL success. Yeah, Trace was a warrior BUT......."We" deserve better.
You clearly neglect trends when it's convenient for you to do so.
Hack was better as a freshman than he was as a sophomore or junior under Franklin. Was one of the best freshman QBs in the country, and then took a dive. Gee, why is that? And perhaps his NFL failures relate at least in part to his poor QB growth in 2014-15? Just maybe?
LSU didn't pursue Franklin, because he was in the midst of shitting all over himself for the 2nd consecutive season. Not many coaches amid an 11-11 run are gonna get a heavy look from programs like LSU when they can pursue guys like Lincoln Riley and Brian Kelly instead.
LSU made the right call. As did USC.
You yourself claim incessantly that ADs and their decisions mean more than anybody here. And I agree. The LSU and USC ADs prove that point very well.
Franklin has gotten two QB’s drafted, Stoops has gotten 0. One of Franklin’s was a guy everyone else recruited as a defensive back, yet Franklin got him drafted as a QB. So it makes far more sense that Levi’s’ time at PSU positions him better for the NFL than at UK unless you’re just a Franklin hater.
Hack never lived up to his hype, but that argument has been beaten to death. Trace was recruited by everyone else as a defensive back, yet Franklin developed him into a very successful college QB who got drafted. But it’s easier to hate on Franklin, so I get it.
You want to give the guys around Trace all the credit for Trace having two solid years, but you won’t do the same for Hack having ARob bailing his ass out all the time. Keep on hating.
UK was pretty good at the ground and pound game, but the OC and QB coach was fresh from the NFL last year and again this year. While they still have the OL they pass a LOT more.
Hack was not a fit with Franklin's offense. He also was not so hot under O'Brien. Laying that all on Franklin is not correct. McSorley was a success story, can't deny that. You can nit pick about him to fit a narrative but the big picture is he was an excellent QB for us.
Cliff is so so and Franklin deserves criticism for that. Backup development has been bad culminating in last season's train wreck. Let's see how he develops Villeaux, Allar and Pribula.
Hack was a slightly over 50% completion passer in high school with 55 TDs and a whopping 33 ints.
There's a trend for you.
Riley left USC so he didn't need to face the SEC meat grinder and let's see if LSU picked a good fit with Brian Kelly.
I'm pretty happy that things worked out and James will be here for the future. I like how he operates and I love seeing the incessant suffering of the NNNNNCAC.
LOL. You're the guy who whined about the media predicting us to finish 8-4 last year in preseason mags, so.....
And you need to read closer, dude. I did not give the guys around Trace "all the credit". I said his performance was very clearly different without the likes of Barkley, Gesicki, and Godwin around. I think that's pretty obvious to anybody capable of examining statistics or watching games.
"I like how he operates".
Those mid-tier Florida bowl losses to second-tier SEC teams are something to behold. I'll give you that.
Hackophiles never mention that the NFL coach who knew him best....didn't draft him or sign him as he bounced around the league.
Wow, are you saying Quarterbacks play better when they are surrounded by talent? There's a revelation.
Hackenberg did fine his true Freshman season under O’Brien. Was he great? No. Was he lousy? No. But most people were fairly happy and excited for the future. O’Brien left and Hackenberg was not a good fit in Franklin’s offense and unfortunately he did not receive good coaching at Penn State. Hackenberg did not maximize his opportunity in the NFL either and is no longer playing.
Agreed.
Compare Hackenberg's freshman year with Clifford's 5th year senior year. They're remarkably similar statistically and in terms of W-L.
Draw whatever conclusions you may from that.
Compare?
Hack career PSU 1235 attempts 693 completed 56.1% 8457 yards 48 td 31 ints 121.4 rating
Cliff career PSU 1005 attempts 607 completed 60.4% 7839 yards 64 td 24 ints. 141.5 rating
Only a moron would draw the conclusion that Hack was the better QB.
I don’t recall posting anything about the media saying 8-4….I don’t make predictions prior to a season. Too many things change. And unlike many of the “we deserve better” posters on here, I’m okay with 8-4 in many years and I didn’t think we were going to be all that good last year.
If a PSU player is a high draft choice.....it's an incredible personal achievement......if they are a bust, its a coaching failure. LOL NNNNNCAC.
You need to read more closely.
So let's try this again.
Compare Hack's freshman year........with Clifford's 5th year senior year.
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You can read it any way you want....Cliff stil had a better year....more yards and less ints
and incidentally Cliff's first year as a starter statistically blew Hacks first year away 148 rating to 134.
Also won 11 games.
Back to Franklin and QBs. As for Hack he never recruited him, he inherited him with a system that did not fit well. Hack also had an abysmal line that got worse from '13 to '15 to go along with his total lack of mobility. We can all thank O'Brien for ignoring that position group. To then turnaround and concoct a narrative that since Hack was average and not close to a 5 star in '14 and '15 it is all due to Franklin's inability to develop a QB is inane.
No one is going to annoint Franklin as the QB whisperer but we need to look at things objectively. He did an excellent job with McSorely. Took an underdog, undersized kid and got him to the NFL. Yes you can quibble about talent he had around him, some bad games whatever but how many school records did the kid set and let's not forget he is the only QB to beat O$U in the last 10 years. And again he got drafted!
Cliff is not where he needs to be or should be in terms of development. I will give you that. '20 was abysmal and '21 was meh. He was hurt in the second half of '21 so you need to factor that in but even with that he has not been impressive.
On the backups, the Roberson thing was a joke and a failure for sure. Veilleux seems decent to very good. Levis was serviceable and no you can't say Levis has made huge leaps at UK that we did not on see at PSU. He got all the reps, still was not that impressive and there is no way Levis will be a top draft pick.
There are key data points coming up in the next couple of years with Cliff as a 6th year guy and how the golden boy backups progress.
No one is going to annoint Franklin as the QB whisperer but we need to look at things objectively. He did an excellent job with McSorely. Took an underdog, undersized kid and got him to the NFL. Yes you can quibble about talent he had around him, some bad games whatever but how many school records did the kid set and let's not forget he is the only QB to beat O$U in the last 10 years. And again he got drafted!
Cliff is not where he needs to be or should be in terms of development. I will give you that. '20 was abysmal and '21 was meh. He was hurt in the second half of '21 so you need to factor that in but even with that he has not been impressive.
On the backups, the Roberson thing was a joke and a failure for sure. Veilleux seems decent to very good. Levis was serviceable and no you can't say Levis has made huge leaps at UK that we did not on see at PSU. He got all the reps, still was not that impressive and there is no way Levis will be a top draft pick.
There are key data points coming up in the next couple of years with Cliff as a 6th year guy and how the golden boy backups progress.
Hack was far from over-rated. Period. End of discussion. He came in as a true freshmen, played in a true pro-style offense as a freshmen, continuously improved and played the best game any pro-style QB played the entire decade at Wisconsin and was the the reason for the dominant win. Hack's problem was James Franklin (who wanted to bench him day one) and the clown car full of bumbling idiots he stupidly brought with him from Vanderbilt, and the bad shoulder he left State College with because of the previously mentioned bad actors. Ricky Rahne was the worst QB coach in Big Ten history. John Donovan might be the worst offensive coordinator in history.
Yes Hack should be right there with Mahomes and company if it wasn't for Franklin. No accountability on Hack whatsoever. Wake up.
Accountability? Franklin, Rahne and Donovan ruined his career before it started. He left Penn State less developed than when he arrived. That takes a special kind of incompetence. Hack willed up to back to back 7 and 5 seasons (with a major shout out to the defense). He paid the price.
