COVID gratuitous dumpster fire thread

[lookleft goright]

Anyone care to comment on this. Is it true or false? Again, I apologize for the political tone of the letter.


FDA Letter Final_Pfizer LOA to issue with BLA approval 08.23.21_v2

The FDA did not approve the vaccines but extended the Emergency Use of the vaccines. They are also trying very hard to have agencies force employers to compel everyone to vaccinate but at the same time leaving themselves as an escape clause who they can return to claiming they never approved the vaccines beyond emergency use.

This is getting really questionable as to why they are forcing vaccines that clearly do not work and CANNOT work for as long as COVID exists in animals, it will constantly evolve and mutate just like the seasonal flu that sometimes comes from Birds or even Swine. The real question is WHY are we being lied to for what is the real purpose of the vaccines? They obviously do not care about the Great Unwashed, they prefer to thin the herd.

 

[Sportfan2017]

Bunk! Period! Totally Faked. And the poster asks why "They" are lying to us? Whomever allowed this to be posted as news should NEVER be trusted as a "News" source. Quite the opposite. Planned and Deliberate Lies.

PS: It took literally 10 seconds of research to discover that someone just used the May 10 summary letter describing the history of the vaccine testing. They simply pasted the heading and the last paragraph on page 10 of the original letter and changed the date. As I said....intentional and deliberate LIES.

PLEASE tells us where you found this "Information" so we all know what "News" site to avoid. Thanks!

 

[ss7]

Anyone care to comment on this. Is it true or false? Again, I apologize for the political tone of the letter.


FDA Letter Final_Pfizer LOA to issue with BLA approval 08.23.21_v2

The FDA did not approve the vaccines but extended the Emergency Use of the vaccines. They are also trying very hard to have agencies force employers to compel everyone to vaccinate but at the same time leaving themselves as an escape clause who they can return to claiming they never approved the vaccines beyond emergency use.

This is getting really questionable as to why they are forcing vaccines that clearly do not work and CANNOT work for as long as COVID exists in animals, it will constantly evolve and mutate just like the seasonal flu that sometimes comes from Birds or even Swine. The real question is WHY are we being lied to for what is the real purpose of the vaccines? They obviously do not care about the Great Unwashed, they prefer to thin the herd.

Exhausting.

Yes. It is the people who research, develop, and support vaccines for the virus that want to thin the herd. Not the people who have opposed nearly every single effort to mitigate the impact of the virus.

 

[crablegs1]

Anyone care to comment on this. Is it true or false? Again, I apologize for the political tone of the letter.


FDA Letter Final_Pfizer LOA to issue with BLA approval 08.23.21_v2

The FDA did not approve the vaccines but extended the Emergency Use of the vaccines. They are also trying very hard to have agencies force employers to compel everyone to vaccinate but at the same time leaving themselves as an escape clause who they can return to claiming they never approved the vaccines beyond emergency use.

This is getting really questionable as to why they are forcing vaccines that clearly do not work and CANNOT work for as long as COVID exists in animals, it will constantly evolve and mutate just like the seasonal flu that sometimes comes from Birds or even Swine. The real question is WHY are we being lied to for what is the real purpose of the vaccines? They obviously do not care about the Great Unwashed, they prefer to thin the herd.

What exactly do you need explained to you? They did approve the vaccine. This can be found out in less than 30 seconds by visiting the website.

 

[82bordeaux]

Exhausting.

Yes. It is the people who research, develop, and support vaccines for the virus that want to thin the herd. Not the people who have opposed nearly every single effort to mitigate the impact of the virus.

 

[1032004]

Dig deeper. There is a lot of info on Ivermectin and who/where it is being used for C-19.. Not re C-19, but Africa has been using Ivermectin for a long time for other diseases on humans.

Are you suggesting Africa wasn't hit as hard by covid because they take ivermectin for other reasons?

I'd say it's much more likely that since covid has the most impact on the elderly, there aren't as many of them. Median age in Africa is ~20 compared to ~38 in the US, and life expectancy in Africa is ~65 compared to ~78 in the US. Hard to kill you if you're already dead.

Nonetheless, Delta doesn't really seem to be sparing Africa, with several countries seeing their highest daily deaths during the entire pandemic recently, likely due to their low vaccination rate and that Delta is more dangerous (despite what anti-vaxxers would lead you to believe):

 

[lookleft goright]

What exactly do you need explained to you? They did approve the vaccine. This can be found out in less than 30 seconds by visiting the website.

My understanding is that it was approved to continue to be used during the pandemic as an emergency measure. Basically, they pushed the deadline back to have it removed or put another way - they extended the emergency use off it. That seems a lot different than saying they approved the vaccine, which gives a different impression.

 

[lookleft goright]

Bunk! Period! Totally Faked. And the poster asks why "They" are lying to us? Whomever allowed this to be posted as news should NEVER be trusted as a "News" source. Quite the opposite. Planned and Deliberate Lies.

PS: It took literally 10 seconds of research to discover that someone just used the May 10 summary letter describing the history of the vaccine testing. They simply pasted the heading and the last paragraph on page 10 of the original letter and changed the date. As I said....intentional and deliberate LIES.

PLEASE tells us where you found this "Information" so we all know what "News" site to avoid. Thanks!

I guess that I read it as they posted the date and then a bunch of dots to show that there was content not shown (pages 1-10 of the original letter) and then posted the relevant part to their argument. The source did post the original letter in their article. Not sure how you can say it was just misleading, but then again - I can be wrong. That is why I asked for opinions and thoughts and verifications.
I am still trying to learn and be open.

 

[Sportfan2017]

My understanding is that it was approved to continue to be used during the pandemic as an emergency measure. Basically, they pushed the deadline back to have it removed or put another way - they extended the emergency use off it. That seems a lot different than saying they approved the vaccine, which gives a different impression.

Your understanding is WRONG. The faked letter you posted is proof. If you took the time to research you can see for yourself it is faked. Despite the obvious and deliberate misinformation you posted....AND the fact you could visit their site and get the actual approval letter.....you STILL are sticking to your "Understanding"? That is willfully denying the facts which is dangerous to you and anyone else that professes the same "Understanding". It is like me saying that Pittsburgh is the capital of Pennsylvania and when directed to the actual PA. website that shows Harrisburg is the capital.......I instead just respond with "It is my understanding that Pittsburgh is the capital". It is incredibly easy to prove or disprove. The only difference that me professing to believe Pittsburgh is the capital of Pa. does not affect anyone's health

 

[82bordeaux]

My understanding is that it was approved to continue to be used during the pandemic as an emergency measure. Basically, they pushed the deadline back to have it removed or put another way - they extended the emergency use off it. That seems a lot different than saying they approved the vaccine, which gives a different impression.

It is Full approval for individuals 16 and older
It extends the EUA for children 12-15
It extends the EUA for use as a 3rd booster shot.

 

[82bordeaux]

Your understanding is WRONG. The faked letter you posted is proof. If you took the time to research you can see for yourself it is faked. Despite the obvious and deliberate misinformation you posted....AND the fact you could visit their site and get the actual approval letter.....you STILL are sticking to your "Understanding"? That is willfully denying the facts which is dangerous to you and anyone else that professes the same "Understanding". It is like me saying that Pittsburgh is the capital of Pennsylvania and when directed to the actual PA. website that shows Harrisburg is the capital.......I instead just respond with "It is my understanding that Pittsburgh is the capital". It is incredibly easy to prove or disprove. The only difference that me professing to believe Pittsburgh is the capital of Pa. does not affect anyone's health

Pittsburgh's not the capital of Pennsylvania?

 

[Sportfan2017]

I guess that I read it as they posted the date and then a bunch of dots to show that there was content not shown (pages 1-10 of the original letter) and then posted the relevant part to their argument. The source did post the original letter in their article. Not sure how you can say it was just misleading, but then again - I can be wrong. That is why I asked for opinions and thoughts and verifications.
I am still trying to learn and be open.

But you are ignoring that the "Relevant" part of the argument as you state is part of the history of communications about the vaccine. The letter was dated MAY 10. FDA approval was granted YESTERDAY. Remember...the article you posted says the FDA is lying to us......by referring to a letter that is 3 1/2 months old and ignoring yesterday's letter confirming FDA approval. The poster is hoping that readers will not bother to do any research or critical analysis but just repost it......spreading the deliberate falsehoods. Sadly it works far too often .

 

[lookleft goright]

But you are ignoring that the "Relevant" part of the argument as you state is part of the history of communications about the vaccine. The letter was dated MAY 10. FDA approval was granted YESTERDAY. Remember...the article you posted says the FDA is lying to us......by referring to a letter that is 3 1/2 months old and ignoring yesterday's letter confirming FDA approval. The poster is hoping that readers will not bother to do any research or critical analysis but just repost it......spreading the deliberate falsehoods. Sadly it works far too often .

He did not say the FDA was lying. He said the press was lying.

 

[lookleft goright]

It is Full approval for individuals 16 and older
It extends the EUA for children 12-15
It extends the EUA for use as a 3rd booster shot.

Thanks for the simple clarification.

 

[PSU James]

Pittsburgh's not the capital of Pennsylvania?

No....... State College is the wrestling capital of Pennsylvania, the US and the World.

 

[lookleft goright]

Your understanding is WRONG. The faked letter you posted is proof. If you took the time to research you can see for yourself it is faked. Despite the obvious and deliberate misinformation you posted....AND the fact you could visit their site and get the actual approval letter.....you STILL are sticking to your "Understanding"? That is willfully denying the facts which is dangerous to you and anyone else that professes the same "Understanding". It is like me saying that Pittsburgh is the capital of Pennsylvania and when directed to the actual PA. website that shows Harrisburg is the capital.......I instead just respond with "It is my understanding that Pittsburgh is the capital". It is incredibly easy to prove or disprove. The only difference that me professing to believe Pittsburgh is the capital of Pa. does not affect anyone's health

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I found the approval letter, but did not find the "original" May 10 letter. I just never felt the need to research that far. I appreciate the responses, but really do not think I need the name calling. Just an FYI for further conversations.
Also, it is good to be reminded to take things I read with a grain of salt. (which is usually what I do - hence the reason that I asked for opinions) I suppose that I could have researched it myself, but I prefer to have conversations and get other people's opinions and thoughts.

 

[crablegs1]

Thanks for the simple clarification.

Again, this could have been found in 30 seconds by going to the FDA site. Get off Facebook, it isn’t that hard.

 

[1032004]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I found the approval letter, but did not find the "original" May 10 letter. I just never felt the need to research that far. I appreciate the responses, but really do not think I need the name calling. Just an FYI for further conversations.
Also, it is good to be reminded to take things I read with a grain of salt. (which is usually what I do - hence the reason that I asked for opinions) I suppose that I could have researched it myself, but I prefer to have conversations and get other people's opinions and thoughts.

Also on page 2 of the document you linked:

"On August 23, 2021, FDA approved the biologics license application (BLA) submitted by BioNTech Manufacturing GmbH for COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) for active immunization to prevent COVID-19 caused by SARS-CoV-2 in individuals 16 years of age and older."

It does also reference what 82bordeaux pointed out. 8/12/21 was when the 3rd dose was authorized for the immunocompromised and 5/10/21 was when it was authorized for 12-15.

 

[Sportfan2017]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I found the approval letter, but did not find the "original" May 10 letter. I just never felt the need to research that far. I appreciate the responses, but really do not think I need the name calling. Just an FYI for further conversations.
Also, it is good to be reminded to take things I read with a grain of salt. (which is usually what I do - hence the reason that I asked for opinions) I suppose that I could have researched it myself, but I prefer to have conversations and get other people's opinions and thoughts.

Thanks for the response. I try very hard not to get involved in name calling. I have re-read my messages and still don't see any name calling. Sorry if you saw any in my responses. Also the poster did indeed say that the FDA is lying. He said "The FDA did not approve the vaccines but extended the Emergency Use of the vaccines" That is not true.....The FDA did indeed approve the vaccine for anyone 16 and older. HIS letter was dated 8/23 but he referenced information from months earlier. Surely you don't believe his deceit was accidental. This is a common tactic in today's world. That is why I asked where you saw this information so we can either ignore future "News" from them or at least have our "Must Verify" radar at full scale. You have not provided the source of your post. ?? Peace

 

[NothingMeaningful]

My understanding is that it was approved to continue to be used during the pandemic as an emergency measure. Basically, they pushed the deadline back to have it removed or put another way - they extended the emergency use off it. That seems a lot different than saying they approved the vaccine, which gives a different impression.

The Pfizer vaccine has received full authorization. It's all over the news (well, the real news). That's why so many organizations (military, schools, public employment, etc.) are now free to mandate vaccination, and are doing so.

Curious: from what source did you get this understanding?

 

[GogglesPaizano]

What's all the bitching about? The Pfizer vaccine is finally approved and works well. It works so well you should get 3 of them. Just think of it like happy hour.

 

[Dogwelder]

... Hard to kill you if you're already dead ...

Ha ha! Remember in Super Troopers when the kid said:
"He's already keeled over! He can't keel over any farther!"?

 

[dmm53]

Every One Of Nation’s Top 25 Universities Now Requiring Students To Be Vaccinated​

And most of the Big Ten Schools: Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Michigan, Rutgers, Minnesota, Ohio State (just mandated it today today), Michigan State, Northwestern.

Where is Penn State? It is a follower not a leader in this regard. It is acting like a fool, and its reputation is suffering because of it. The administration deserves the blame, not the faculty, staff or students.

 

[Sportfan2017]

Every One Of Nation’s Top 25 Universities Now Requiring Students To Be Vaccinated​

And most of the Big Ten Schools: Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Michigan, Rutgers, Minnesota, Ohio State (just mandated it today today), Michigan State, Northwestern.

Where is Penn State? It is a follower not a leader in this regard. It is acting like a fool, and its reputation is suffering because of it. The administration deserves the blame, not the faculty, staff or students.

Like so many in the modern world who now use the ancient techniques. Lick your finger and stick it up in the air to see which way the (political) winds are blowing

 

[dunkej01]

Will tan tom go "nuke em" or quiet on this....

 

[82bordeaux]

Will tan tom go "nuke em" or quiet on this....

Yeah, You don't see many successful shots being taken in Columbus.

 

[lookleft goright]

Every One Of Nation’s Top 25 Universities Now Requiring Students To Be Vaccinated​

And most of the Big Ten Schools: Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Michigan, Rutgers, Minnesota, Ohio State (just mandated it today today), Michigan State, Northwestern.

Where is Penn State? It is a follower not a leader in this regard. It is acting like a fool, and its reputation is suffering because of it. The administration deserves the blame, not the faculty, staff or students.

Its reputation is enhanced in my mind because of it.

 

[dmm53]

Its reputation is enhanced in my mind because of it.

Care to explain? It's a case, we could say, of "look (at) science, go cowardly"

 

[lookleft goright]

Care to explain? It's a case, we could say, of "look (at) science, go cowardly"

Like the people who support abortion like to say - My body, my choice. Even the Polio and small pox vaccines have religious exemptions.
We have natural immune systems that can handle it for the vast majority of the people - let's allow people who want to go that route to go that route.
The age group being forced to vaccinate is not a high risk population and so why not let them allow their bodies' natural system to protect themselves? That way as the virus mutates, they will have a much better chance of already being immune to it. (which does not appear to be the case with those who are vaccinated) Otherwise we would not need a new vaccine for each mutation.
I hope this helps.

 

[82bordeaux]

Like the people who support abortion like to say - My body, my choice. Even the Polio and small pox vaccines have religious exemptions.
We have natural immune systems that can handle it for the vast majority of the people - let's allow people who want to go that route to go that route.
The age group being forced to vaccinate is not a high risk population and so why not let them allow their bodies' natural system to protect themselves? That way as the virus mutates, they will have a much better chance of already being immune to it. (which does not appear to be the case with those who are vaccinated) Otherwise we would not need a new vaccine for each mutation.
I hope this helps.

So just to be clear. You are all for having the choice to manage your own body 100% of the time? No exemptions, right?

 

[GogglesPaizano]

So just to be clear. You are all for having the choice to manage your own body 100% of the time? No exemptions, right?

I suspect his point is that those who have been megaphoning for the past 50 years "It's a woman's body its her choice and her choice alone" , while we have flushed 65 million fetuses (corrected - Human lives) down the toilet, (which is orders of magnitude more than CV will kill over the next decade) should STFU now.

May God have mercy on us all.

 

[Creek Side]

Hey Lookleft, The sooner you comply (or at least tell them that) the sooner they'll shut the fuk up about it. But I do find the back and forth entertaining so by all means carry on. 😃

 

[82bordeaux]

I suspect his point is that those who have been megaphoning for the past 50 years "It's a woman's body its her choice and her choice alone" , while we have flushed 65 million fetuses (corrected - Human lives) down the toilet, (which is orders of magnitude more than CV will kill over the next decade) should STFU now.

May God have mercy on us all.

I know exactly what he meant. But that axe swings both ways. At least I'm consistent on the subject. I'm all about being free to make choices and living (or dying) with the consequences.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Here's a different discussion topic and a bit a-political. I tend to be data driven and I continue to be amazed we have shut the whole world down for 0.3% or less infection to fatality rate, and 'most' of those being elderly or at risk due to co-morbitities.

I will be up front I don't have a specific % to justify these actions but off the cuff; if someone had asked me back in 2019 what would it take for the world to react like this, with this draconian shutdowns, quarantines, loss of freedoms... I would have been more likely to say probably as high as a 5-10% fatality rate. Call me monstrous but, I certainly would not have thought a less than 1% rate would get us here. This comes with the understanding that taking kids out of school for a year, ineffective masks everywhere, businesses closed, hundreds of thousands of them lost forever, along with those people's livelihoods and in some cases life savings,.... The real and total pain of the shutdowns is largely ignored in most discourse. Maybe as painful is how effectively CV has divided the country, family members arguing and no longer taking to each other over their stance on masks, closures, vaccines,... It is all so very sad.

I understand that the force behind most of these messages seems to be driven by our hospital capacity. The hidden secret here is that the whole world's medical capacity is in no way designed to handle a pandemic, never has been and never will be. Hospitals have to generate revenue and positive cash flow for their ERs and ICUs they simply don't by equipment, hire people, and build facilities to handle beyond the 90th percentile situation. All businesses run off of ROI. Hospitals are a business and they need a return from their investment. An empty ICU bed in this context is not a good thing for the hospital's CFO. Historically, it's not all that uncommon for a bad typical flu year to overwhelm the capacity of those facilities, since they are not sized for big surges.

It hurt me personally this weekend when we rushed my wife to emergency only to experience a horrible 8 hour ordeal. She didn't see a Dr. For nearly 3 hours and did not receive any pain meds for more than 3. I was not allowed into the ER due to CV, and they simply wheeled her into a hallway facing a walk and left her there for an hour and a half. She moaned 'help me' while CV burnt out staff stood 5 feet away enjoying small talk, telling jokes, while ignoring her pleas. That kind of behavior is unacceptable and I dealt with it once informed.

Am I bitter or deluded thinking we would have been attended to quicker had more people been Vaxed? No, not at all. Viruses do what they do. Too many people think we can actually manage our way out of this with largely ineffective social rules. In retrosoect it was complete stupidity to think early in April of 2020 that we could eradicate CV by the initial 2 week shut down. What a joke, but millions were totally convinced at the time.

Name one highly contagious by aerosol virus in history that we have been able to easily control and beat. Unfortunately, it will never and can never happen. Sure we can flatten the curve but the area under the curve remains largely the same, hence we extend the misery to some extent.

Again, so all of this for less than 0.3%, maybe I am heartless to raise the question, but I am still a bit suprised?

I am curious. Am I on an island or all politics aside what would you have thought the death rate would need to be before the whole world reacted they way we have for CV19?

 

[82bordeaux]

Here's a different discussion topic and a bit a-political. I tend to be data driven and I continue to be amazed we have shut the whole world down for 0.3% or less infection to fatality rate, and 'most' of those being elderly or at risk due to co-morbitities.

I will be up front I don't have a specific % to justify these actions but off the cuff; if someone had asked me back in 2019 what would it take for the world to react like this, with this draconian shutdowns, quarantines, loss of freedoms... I would have been more likely to say probably as high as a 5-10% fatality rate. Call me monstrous but, I certainly would not have thought a less than 1% rate would get us here. This comes with the understanding that taking kids out of school for a year, ineffective masks everywhere, businesses closed, hundreds of thousands of them lost forever, along with those people's livelihoods and in some cases life savings,.... The real and total pain of the shutdowns is largely ignored in most discourse. Maybe as painful is how effectively CV has divided the country, family members arguing and no longer taking to each other over their stance on masks, closures, vaccines,... It is all so very sad.

I understand that the force behind most of these messages seems to be driven by our hospital capacity. The hidden secret here is that the whole world's medical capacity is in no way designed to handle a pandemic, never has been and never will be. Hospitals have to generate revenue and positive cash flow for their ERs and ICUs they simply don't by equipment, hire people, and build facilities to handle beyond the 90th percentile situation. All businesses run off of ROI. Hospitals are a business and they need a return from their investment. An empty ICU bed in this context is not a good thing for the hospital's CFO. Historically, it's not all that uncommon for a bad typical flu year to overwhelm the capacity of those facilities, since they are not sized for big surges.

It hurt me personally this weekend when we rushed my wife to emergency only to experience a horrible 8 hour ordeal. She didn't see a Dr. For nearly 3 hours and did not receive any pain meds for more than 3. I was not allowed into the ER due to CV, and they simply wheeled her into a hallway facing a walk and left her there for an hour and a half. She moaned 'help me' while CV burnt out staff stood 5 feet away enjoying small talk, telling jokes, while ignoring her pleas. That kind of behavior is unacceptable and I dealt with it once informed.

Am I bitter or deluded thinking we would have been attended to quicker had more people been Vaxed? No, not at all. Viruses do what they do. Too many people think we can actually manage our way out of this with largely ineffective social rules. In retrosoect it was complete stupidity to think early in April of 2020 that we could eradicate CV by the initial 2 week shut down. What a joke, but millions were totally convinced at the time.

Name one highly contagious by aerosol virus in history that we have been able to easily control and beat. Unfortunately, it will never and can never happen. Sure we can flatten the curve but the area under the curve remains largely the same, hence we extend the misery to some extent.

Again, so all of this for less than 0.3%, maybe I am heartless to raise the question, but I am still a bit suprised?

I am curious. Am I on an island or all politics aside what would you have thought the death rate would need to be before the whole world reacted they way we have for CV19?

I get your point and I agree, that if you asked me in 2019 I would have thought the same. But it would have been an off the cuff uninformed answer. If you just look at the scope of 5-10% mortality rate, It would have led to 4-6 times the normal global death rate. Think about what effect that would have on the global economy. It may have been just as bad or worse than what lock downs caused. And if the mortality rate was that high, it probably would have spiraled even higher due to lack of medical care. Just imagine how bad hospitals would have been if the death rate was 15-30 times higher than it is.
I think what we learned is that the world cannot handle a virus as transmissible as Covid, with a death rate in the 5-10% range. I think I would start drinking the good stuff as quickly as possible because it would be the stuff of science fiction novels.

 

[crablegs1]

Here's a different discussion topic and a bit a-political. I tend to be data driven and I continue to be amazed we have shut the whole world down for 0.3% or less infection to fatality rate, and 'most' of those being elderly or at risk due to co-morbitities.

I will be up front I don't have a specific % to justify these actions but off the cuff; if someone had asked me back in 2019 what would it take for the world to react like this, with this draconian shutdowns, quarantines, loss of freedoms... I would have been more likely to say probably as high as a 5-10% fatality rate. Call me monstrous but, I certainly would not have thought a less than 1% rate would get us here. This comes with the understanding that taking kids out of school for a year, ineffective masks everywhere, businesses closed, hundreds of thousands of them lost forever, along with those people's livelihoods and in some cases life savings,.... The real and total pain of the shutdowns is largely ignored in most discourse. Maybe as painful is how effectively CV has divided the country, family members arguing and no longer taking to each other over their stance on masks, closures, vaccines,... It is all so very sad.

I understand that the force behind most of these messages seems to be driven by our hospital capacity. The hidden secret here is that the whole world's medical capacity is in no way designed to handle a pandemic, never has been and never will be. Hospitals have to generate revenue and positive cash flow for their ERs and ICUs they simply don't by equipment, hire people, and build facilities to handle beyond the 90th percentile situation. All businesses run off of ROI. Hospitals are a business and they need a return from their investment. An empty ICU bed in this context is not a good thing for the hospital's CFO. Historically, it's not all that uncommon for a bad typical flu year to overwhelm the capacity of those facilities, since they are not sized for big surges.

It hurt me personally this weekend when we rushed my wife to emergency only to experience a horrible 8 hour ordeal. She didn't see a Dr. For nearly 3 hours and did not receive any pain meds for more than 3. I was not allowed into the ER due to CV, and they simply wheeled her into a hallway facing a walk and left her there for an hour and a half. She moaned 'help me' while CV burnt out staff stood 5 feet away enjoying small talk, telling jokes, while ignoring her pleas. That kind of behavior is unacceptable and I dealt with it once informed.

Am I bitter or deluded thinking we would have been attended to quicker had more people been Vaxed? No, not at all. Viruses do what they do. Too many people think we can actually manage our way out of this with largely ineffective social rules. In retrosoect it was complete stupidity to think early in April of 2020 that we could eradicate CV by the initial 2 week shut down. What a joke, but millions were totally convinced at the time.

Name one highly contagious by aerosol virus in history that we have been able to easily control and beat. Unfortunately, it will never and can never happen. Sure we can flatten the curve but the area under the curve remains largely the same, hence we extend the misery to some extent.

Again, so all of this for less than 0.3%, maybe I am heartless to raise the question, but I am still a bit suprised?

I am curious. Am I on an island or all politics aside what would you have thought the death rate would need to be before the whole world reacted they way we have for CV19?

I’m not sure I agree.

I didn’t verify your numbers, but going with the .3% death rate you cited you could end up with 1 million dead Americans. Right now the death/case rate in the US is actually over 1.5%.

If we simply replaced the word covid with terrorists, I wonder if so many people would have a problem making tiny sacrifices in order to stop it.

Over the last 18 months, terrorists have killed 600,000 Americans. In order to stop them, please wear a mask and get a fully approved shot. For some reason I think the response would be far worse than that.

 

[Dogwelder]

… I am curious … what would you have thought the death rate would need to be before the whole world reacted they way we have for CV19?

Good line of questioning. Phrasing it in terms of “death rate” is confusing, because we would also need to know case rate, transmission rate, etc.

Let’s get down to the core questions, from the point of view of March 2020, or really anytime.

Q1: How many US lives would we need to save in, say, the next two years to justify a set of costly countermeasures?

Q2: If we do nothing, how many US people do we expect to die in, say, the next two years?

Q3: If we take the set of costly countermeasures at an expected level of compliance, how many US people do we expect to die in, say, the next two years?

Regarding Q1, we can just honestly ask ourselves for our own visceral answer. (The economists’ answers would be interesting, too, but we are laymen, and some of us hate experts, anyhow.)

Regarding Q2, has any jurisdiction done the experiment for us? Is there any place that has taken almost no countermeasures against COVID spread? What are their death numbers like?

Regarding Q3, for answering the retroactive version of this question, our actual experience answers Q3.

 

[Dogwelder]

Q1: How many … would we need to save … to justify … ?

Q2: If we do nothing, how many … do we expect to die … ?

Q3: If we take … countermeasures … how many … do we expect to die … ?

Goggles, there was no way to answer your question without answering my Q1, Q2, Q3. Hope you don’t mind that I ~reformulated your question.

 

[Dogwelder]

I remember that John’s Hopkins and the government medical agencies did make projections to answer Q2 and Q3. I wonder how close to accurate the projections turned out to be. I’m guessing reasonably and surprisingly accurate—i.e., in the ballpark.

 

[onetime1]

Here's a different discussion topic and a bit a-political. I tend to be data driven and I continue to be amazed we have shut the whole world down for 0.3% or less infection to fatality rate, and 'most' of those being elderly or at risk due to co-morbitities.

I will be up front I don't have a specific % to justify these actions but off the cuff; if someone had asked me back in 2019 what would it take for the world to react like this, with this draconian shutdowns, quarantines, loss of freedoms... I would have been more likely to say probably as high as a 5-10% fatality rate. Call me monstrous but, I certainly would not have thought a less than 1% rate would get us here. This comes with the understanding that taking kids out of school for a year, ineffective masks everywhere, businesses closed, hundreds of thousands of them lost forever, along with those people's livelihoods and in some cases life savings,.... The real and total pain of the shutdowns is largely ignored in most discourse. Maybe as painful is how effectively CV has divided the country, family members arguing and no longer taking to each other over their stance on masks, closures, vaccines,... It is all so very sad.

I understand that the force behind most of these messages seems to be driven by our hospital capacity. The hidden secret here is that the whole world's medical capacity is in no way designed to handle a pandemic, never has been and never will be. Hospitals have to generate revenue and positive cash flow for their ERs and ICUs they simply don't by equipment, hire people, and build facilities to handle beyond the 90th percentile situation. All businesses run off of ROI. Hospitals are a business and they need a return from their investment. An empty ICU bed in this context is not a good thing for the hospital's CFO. Historically, it's not all that uncommon for a bad typical flu year to overwhelm the capacity of those facilities, since they are not sized for big surges.

It hurt me personally this weekend when we rushed my wife to emergency only to experience a horrible 8 hour ordeal. She didn't see a Dr. For nearly 3 hours and did not receive any pain meds for more than 3. I was not allowed into the ER due to CV, and they simply wheeled her into a hallway facing a walk and left her there for an hour and a half. She moaned 'help me' while CV burnt out staff stood 5 feet away enjoying small talk, telling jokes, while ignoring her pleas. That kind of behavior is unacceptable and I dealt with it once informed.

Am I bitter or deluded thinking we would have been attended to quicker had more people been Vaxed? No, not at all. Viruses do what they do. Too many people think we can actually manage our way out of this with largely ineffective social rules. In retrosoect it was complete stupidity to think early in April of 2020 that we could eradicate CV by the initial 2 week shut down. What a joke, but millions were totally convinced at the time.

Name one highly contagious by aerosol virus in history that we have been able to easily control and beat. Unfortunately, it will never and can never happen. Sure we can flatten the curve but the area under the curve remains largely the same, hence we extend the misery to some extent.

Again, so all of this for less than 0.3%, maybe I am heartless to raise the question, but I am still a bit suprised?

I am curious. Am I on an island or all politics aside what would you have thought the death rate would need to be before the whole world reacted they way we have for CV19?

Thank you again! I would like to buy you a beer or drink of your choice