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COVID gratuitous dumpster fire thread

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Here's a different discussion topic and a bit a-political. I tend to be data driven and I continue to be amazed we have shut the whole world down for 0.3% or less infection to fatality rate, and 'most' of those being elderly or at risk due to co-morbitities.

I will be up front I don't have a specific % to justify these actions but off the cuff; if someone had asked me back in 2019 what would it take for the world to react like this, with this draconian shutdowns, quarantines, loss of freedoms... I would have been more likely to say probably as high as a 5-10% fatality rate. Call me monstrous but, I certainly would not have thought a less than 1% rate would get us here. This comes with the understanding that taking kids out of school for a year, ineffective masks everywhere, businesses closed, hundreds of thousands of them lost forever, along with those people's livelihoods and in some cases life savings,.... The real and total pain of the shutdowns is largely ignored in most discourse. Maybe as painful is how effectively CV has divided the country, family members arguing and no longer taking to each other over their stance on masks, closures, vaccines,... It is all so very sad.

I understand that the force behind most of these messages seems to be driven by our hospital capacity. The hidden secret here is that the whole world's medical capacity is in no way designed to handle a pandemic, never has been and never will be. Hospitals have to generate revenue and positive cash flow for their ERs and ICUs they simply don't by equipment, hire people, and build facilities to handle beyond the 90th percentile situation. All businesses run off of ROI. Hospitals are a business and they need a return from their investment. An empty ICU bed in this context is not a good thing for the hospital's CFO. Historically, it's not all that uncommon for a bad typical flu year to overwhelm the capacity of those facilities, since they are not sized for big surges.

It hurt me personally this weekend when we rushed my wife to emergency only to experience a horrible 8 hour ordeal. She didn't see a Dr. For nearly 3 hours and did not receive any pain meds for more than 3. I was not allowed into the ER due to CV, and they simply wheeled her into a hallway facing a walk and left her there for an hour and a half. She moaned 'help me' while CV burnt out staff stood 5 feet away enjoying small talk, telling jokes, while ignoring her pleas. That kind of behavior is unacceptable and I dealt with it once informed.

Am I bitter or deluded thinking we would have been attended to quicker had more people been Vaxed? No, not at all. Viruses do what they do. Too many people think we can actually manage our way out of this with largely ineffective social rules. In retrosoect it was complete stupidity to think early in April of 2020 that we could eradicate CV by the initial 2 week shut down. What a joke, but millions were totally convinced at the time.

Name one highly contagious by aerosol virus in history that we have been able to easily control and beat. Unfortunately, it will never and can never happen. Sure we can flatten the curve but the area under the curve remains largely the same, hence we extend the misery to some extent.

Again, so all of this for less than 0.3%, maybe I am heartless to raise the question, but I am still a bit suprised?

I am curious. Am I on an island or all politics aside what would you have thought the death rate would need to be before the whole world reacted they way we have for CV19?

One of my biggest pet peeves of covid skeptics’ during this pandemic is trying to place all the blame for businesses closing as well as things like drug overdoses on “shutdowns.” Sure they didn’t help and I’d agree that many of the restrictions were probably unnecessary, but restaurants, movie theaters, hotels, airlines etc were all going to see business tank by ~50% in March/April/May regardless of the restrictions that were put in. This is what still happened in Sweden for example.

The one thing that was more widespread that we’ll probably regret the most are places that kept schools closed for most or all of 2020-2021.

But even though we may not have needed as many restrictions, that doesn’t change that covid was/is a big deal. Yes “most” of the deaths are in the elderly, but “most” of ALL deaths are in the elderly. Since you’re looking for comparisons, here’s 2 sobering statistics:

1. 2020 was the largest year over year increase in total deaths since 1918
2. 2020 saw the greatest decline in life expectancy since WWII

As mentioned, if 0.3% is accurate (which it might be but it can’t really be any lower since ~0.2% have already died), that’s 1 million dead.

I wasn’t alive when it was a thing, but here’s another comparison: Polio. The rate of paralysis (not even death) was about 1%. And the “worst outbreak in US history” in 1952 resulted in 57k “cases” and 3k deaths - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_polio

So sounds like covid is orders of magnitude worse than polio was but seems like there was a lot of hysteria around that as well (including places closing over fear of it) and a huge effort to get a vaccine developed
 
Yep the 0.3% or less is estimated based upon including of all who became infected but we're asymptomatic and never knew it. Why we are downplaying folks getting tested for the antibodies and allowing vaccine waivers for those who have an acceptable level of natural immunity due to a prior exposure is another topic definitively worthy for discussion.

On balance it seems very clear the current vaccines provide no protection from getting infected and building up enough viral load to infect others. They only protect against the progression of the illness and severity of symptoms.

Unfortunately what this means it's we will all catch it eventually vaccinated or not as it will never be fully eradicated. Not to mention the complexity added by mutations and the likely need for boosters or new versions of vaccines in the years to come.

Thus in the long run all of the lock downs, sequestering, masking were somewhat futile with respect to arresting the spread. This was always pretty much an outright lie.
I suspect a few years down the road we will learn just how ineffective these measures were, granted there likely was some flattening of the curve due.

Truth be told the only chance the world had was when this virus was isolated to the wuhan area. If China has been swifter in a total lockdown and isolation inclusive of their own travel ban, maybe just maybe a global pandemic could have been avoided. One questions thier resolve and motivations in this area but that is yet another conspiratorial topic of it's own that I choose not to pursue.

I think history will show the terrible price paid via the measures taken, the tens of trillions of global impact, the suicides, the educational and emotional impact to the kids, the losses of businesses, the potentially permanent loss of freedoms and hippa protections, and so on was far too steep considering 'most' of the deaths during the first year would have happened regardless.
 
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… On balance it seems very clear the current vaccines provide no protection from getting infected and building up enough viral load to infect others. They only protect against the progression of the illness and severity of symptoms
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but do you have a reputable, authoritative source for “no protection”?
 
the current vaccines provide no protection from getting infected
giphy.gif
 
Yah, I'd also like to see some sourcing on that. And yes, I'm saying he's wrong. Definitives like that are rarely correct.
It is definitely wrong. One thing we are learning, however is that the effectiveness wanes over time.

I could probably find 10 things wrong with Goggle’s post, but I always love the Hippa one. Now, I’m not on Facebook or Twitter anymore so I’ll admit I’m a bit behind on the Covid denier/anti-vaxer claims, but this is a new one. Maybe someone could explain the loss of Hippa protections? I’m not aware of health care professionals releasing people’s medical information against their will in any instances.


the potentially permanent loss of freedoms and hippa protections, and so on was far too steep considering 'most' of the deaths during the first year would have happened regardless.
 
It is definitely wrong. One thing we are learning, however is that the effectiveness wanes over time.

I could probably find 10 things wrong with Goggle’s post, but I always love the Hippa one. Now, I’m not on Facebook or Twitter anymore so I’ll admit I’m a bit behind on the Covid denier/anti-vaxer claims, but this is a new one. Maybe someone could explain the loss of Hippa protections? I’m not aware of health care professionals releasing people’s medical information against their will in any instances.
I agree with Goggles, we must protect the hippas!
giphy.gif

...sorry, I was confused for a second.
giphy.gif

...never mind!
 
It is definitely wrong. One thing we are learning, however is that the effectiveness wanes over time.

I could probably find 10 things wrong with Goggle’s post, but I always love the Hippa one. Now, I’m not on Facebook or Twitter anymore so I’ll admit I’m a bit behind on the Covid denier/anti-vaxer claims, but this is a new one. Maybe someone could explain the loss of Hippa protections? I’m not aware of health care professionals releasing people’s medical information against their will in any instances.
If by "infected" he means "there is a measurable amount of the virus in your nose" then he's correct. Just like the polio vaccine doesn't prevent any polio virus from being in your nose, or the smallpox vaccine doesn't prevent any smallpox virus from being in your nose, or a flu vaccine doesn't prevent any flu virus from being in your nose, etc. That's because that's not what vaccines do. What this vaccine does is shorten the time in which any meaningful amount of virus is present, thereby reducing window of infectiousness.

We should really use the word "infected" to mean "demonstrating the major symptoms of having the disease".
 
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It is definitely wrong. One thing we are learning, however is that the effectiveness wanes over time.

I could probably find 10 things wrong with Goggle’s post, but I always love the Hippa one. Now, I’m not on Facebook or Twitter anymore so I’ll admit I’m a bit behind on the Covid denier/anti-vaxer claims, but this is a new one. Maybe someone could explain the loss of Hippa protections? I’m not aware of health care professionals releasing people’s medical information against their will in any instances.
Almost everyone who expresses concern over "HIPPA violations" has practically no understanding of HIPPA and its limited scope and application. It's a phrase that's routinely substituted for concerns over medical and health information privacy more broadly, but gives off the false impression of authority.
 
Yah, I'd also like to see some sourcing on that. And yes, I'm saying he's wrong. Definitives like that are rarely correct.

Many sources related to the Delta varyant. Just Google vaccinated and unvaccinated show same viral load.

 
Many sources related to the Delta varyant.

Can you quote the part in the article that says the logical equivalent of the following?

“it seems very clear the current vaccines provide no protection from getting infected and building up enough viral load to infect others”
 
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Katherine Wu is one of the better reporters/writers on big-picture Covid stuff, and recently did a great job of explaining the virus variants' evolutionarily paths, a topic that's been touched on here in this thread.

Despite the title it's actually a quite hopeful article, discussing the evolutionary paths, obstacles, and trade-offs the coronavirus variants face when mutating.

The hopeful part is that the types of mutations that make a variant more successful at circumventing a body's defenses, including inoculation, leave those variants less successful at replicating and less lethal. At least so far.

The delta variant is less elusive but far more transmissible than its competitors, so it poses less of a problem for those vaccinated but a huge problem for those that aren't.

The upshot is that within two years everyone not vaccinated will likely become infected. That reality is a danger in itself, but the greater danger is that with billions still unvaccinated, the virus will have more opportunities to mutate.

It's not necessarily the case that every mutation renders that new variant more dangerous--evolutionary success doesn't come with a guarantee of increased lethality. But it could.

 
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We should really use the word "infected" to mean "demonstrating the major symptoms of having the disease".

Disagree since the biggest issue for society is transmissability, and there has been much said by experts of the reality of asymptomatic spread.

Certainly sick people (coughing and sneezing) are the biggest risk, but unfortunately the asymptomatic can still spread the virus. Hence this is one major concern with vaccine passports. I haven't seen data confirming this, but it would stand to reason the vaccinated are more likely to be asymptomatic carriers hence potentially even a greater risk to unwittingly infecting others.
 
On balance it seems very clear the current vaccines provide no protection from getting infected and building up enough viral load to infect others.

Goggles, I’m sorry but I have to call you “No Protection” Goggles in my mind from now on, in order to promote accountability. Whenever you make a good point, I will say to myself: “yes, but it’s ‘No Protection’ Goggles who said it—I’d better think more before believing it.” :)
 
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Goggles, I’m sorry but I have to call you “No Protection” Goggles in my mind from now on, in order to promote accountability. Whenever you make a good point, I will say to myself: “yes, but it’s ‘No Protection’ Goggles who said it—I’d better think more before believing it.” :)

From the Cleveland clinic:

"“Fully vaccinated” doesn’t mean “immune to COVID-19”
At one point, we thought that being fully vaccinated meant we could leave our masks behind and go back to the normal that we’ve been longing for. The new COVID-19 variants have pretty much killed that dream. Dr. Cardona says now is not the time to let your guard down. While the vaccines are potent, there’s still a chance that you could become infected."

From John Hopkins:

" THE NEW DATA SAYS THAT A FULLY VACCINATED PERSON WHO EXPERIENCES A BREAKTHROUGH INFECTION CAN SPREAD THE VIRUS JUST AS MUCH AS AN UNVACCINATED PERSON. IS THIS ONLY FOR SYMPTOMATIC INFECTIONS?

It’s expected that symptomatic breakthroughs are more contagious than asymptomatic breakthroughs.

When extrapolating, it is critical to understand that this study is derived primarily from one major site in which the activities and the settings that were leading to infections are not necessarily representative of the day-to-day life of a fully vaccinated individual.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR FULLY VACCINATED PEOPLE WHO HAVE A KNOWN EXPOSURE? DO THEY NEED TO GET TESTED AND QUARANTINE THEMSELVES?

The CDC updated its guidance to say that fully vaccinated people who are exposed to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 should be tested three to five days after exposure. They should wear a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days or until they receive a negative test result."
 
From the Cleveland clinic:

"“Fully vaccinated” doesn’t mean “immune to COVID-19”
At one point, we thought that being fully vaccinated meant we could leave our masks behind and go back to the normal that we’ve been longing for. The new COVID-19 variants have pretty much killed that dream. Dr. Cardona says now is not the time to let your guard down. While the vaccines are potent, there’s still a chance that you could become infected."

From John Hopkins:

" THE NEW DATA SAYS THAT A FULLY VACCINATED PERSON WHO EXPERIENCES A BREAKTHROUGH INFECTION CAN SPREAD THE VIRUS JUST AS MUCH AS AN UNVACCINATED PERSON. IS THIS ONLY FOR SYMPTOMATIC INFECTIONS?

It’s expected that symptomatic breakthroughs are more contagious than asymptomatic breakthroughs.

When extrapolating, it is critical to understand that this study is derived primarily from one major site in which the activities and the settings that were leading to infections are not necessarily representative of the day-to-day life of a fully vaccinated individual.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR FULLY VACCINATED PEOPLE WHO HAVE A KNOWN EXPOSURE? DO THEY NEED TO GET TESTED AND QUARANTINE THEMSELVES?

The CDC updated its guidance to say that fully vaccinated people who are exposed to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 should be tested three to five days after exposure. They should wear a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days or until they receive a negative test result."
So would you say that the bumpers on a car provide no protection against the driver getting an injury from a collision?

Seatbelts, condoms, tree harnesses. No protection?

:)
 
I think history will show the terrible price paid via the measures taken, the tens of trillions of global impact, the suicides, the educational and emotional impact to the kids, the losses of businesses, the potentially permanent loss of freedoms and hippa protections, and so on was far too steep considering 'most' of the deaths during the first year would have happened regardless.
Wow.....this one is T-ball easy to prove FALSE: The number of Death Certificates issued/per 100,000 in 2020 were 15.9% higher in 2020 compared to 2019. That isn't because of population increase because the 15.9% increase was measured in "Deaths per 100,000". The greatest disparity was from April 11 through December of 2020. Hmmmm...wonder what could have caused that?. The increase in deaths matches almost perfectly with the number of reported deaths from Covid-19. If your statement we even close to true...there would be no significant difference in #deaths/100,000. Death Certificates are so important legally and the rules/verifications are quite extensive and rigid that reporting someone as dead that isn't is so incredibly rare that it becomes national news. Death Certificate numbers are basically unimpeachable data. Your statement is FALSE by about 378,000 in the 2019-2020 comparison.......almost exactly the number of reported Covid-19 deaths reported in 2020.
 
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Goggles has never even heard of the color grey. It's black or it's white. 100% protection or no protection at all. There is no in between. If you've ever wanted to know what it would look like to bring the Ricky Bobby mentality to amateur epidemiology...
 
Goggles has never even heard of the color grey. It's black or it's white. 100% protection or no protection at all … the Ricky Bobby mentality ...
“IMar beat Cenzo sometimes. In other words, Cenzo had no protection against IMar. Why even wrestle IMar in the NCAA finals? Just forfeit already.” — Coach Goggles :)

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Public Health is a game of chasing margins. Efforts to curb a vague threat are bound to ruffle feathers as it’s purely a numbers game, with a heavy dose of human psy-ops. Efforts are focused on the general common good, not your (or my) best interests. There is often a big difference.
 
When we look back on 2020-2021, will our grandchildren be learning about the great pandemic called Covid, or the pandemic called political extremism? I think politics will have a higher death toll.
 
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Yep the 0.3% or less is estimated based upon including of all who became infected but we're asymptomatic and never knew it. Why we are downplaying folks getting tested for the antibodies and allowing vaccine waivers for those who have an acceptable level of natural immunity due to a prior exposure is another topic definitively worthy for discussion.

On balance it seems very clear the current vaccines provide no protection from getting infected and building up enough viral load to infect others. They only protect against the progression of the illness and severity of symptoms.

Unfortunately what this means it's we will all catch it eventually vaccinated or not as it will never be fully eradicated. Not to mention the complexity added by mutations and the likely need for boosters or new versions of vaccines in the years to come.

Thus in the long run all of the lock downs, sequestering, masking were somewhat futile with respect to arresting the spread. This was always pretty much an outright lie.
I suspect a few years down the road we will learn just how ineffective these measures were, granted there likely was some flattening of the curve due.

Truth be told the only chance the world had was when this virus was isolated to the wuhan area. If China has been swifter in a total lockdown and isolation inclusive of their own travel ban, maybe just maybe a global pandemic could have been avoided. One questions thier resolve and motivations in this area but that is yet another conspiratorial topic of it's own that I choose not to pursue.

I think history will show the terrible price paid via the measures taken, the tens of trillions of global impact, the suicides, the educational and emotional impact to the kids, the losses of businesses, the potentially permanent loss of freedoms and hippa protections, and so on was far too steep considering 'most' of the deaths during the first year would have happened regardless.

I do agree that if you can prove prior immunity (within ~1 year) that should suffice for any vaccine requirements.

But other than the “no protection” line which seems to have been covered pretty well already, you are admitting that the vaccine reduces severity, correct? So would you agree that the vaccines are an extremely good thing? Since I agree, it seems everyone may need to get covid eventually. But if the vaccine reduces symptoms as you admit, then the vaccine will get us through this with far less deaths, as has played out over the last few months in countries with higher vaccine coverage vs those without.

Oh and suicides were down in 2020 - https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234
 
When we look back on 2020-2021, will our grandchildren be learning about the great pandemic called Covid, or the pandemic called political extremism? I think politics will have a higher death toll.

Covid. Definitely covid. It was the worst pandemic in 100 years.
 
Public Health is a game of chasing margins. …
I think of Churchill poring over tons-sunk-by-Uboats statistics every night, and trying to change the percentages. Ricky Bobby would not have been any good at that fight.
 
And vaccine might be better than suffering, wrecked health, or death.

If you get COVID, somehow don’t suffer, and survive in good-as-new health, then the “free” immunity you get is better than the almost-free vaccine you turned down.

If you get COVID, and suffer or survive with diminished health or die, then the almost-free vaccine you turned down would likely have been better than the costly immunity you bought.

Eck5IxGNt8f0-HVZpTtZNs7ibnUBgh3BzHazJQrJPzjgsj3_lHV6NEXyZ_7G7oE6yEi2H7Qa3bwkrZ90662F2gpP3X06MXuJ6M659kT4OjiGrQhZDMCVmwuzy3fwNx2FQ0Z1c1w3rVBYDMW8Bn8a99GippHBSAacudE
 
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A still-expanding group of U.S. colleges and universities say students must receive a COVID-19 vaccine before arriving on campus this fall. The first institutions to announce the mandate were private, with Cornell University and Duke University leading the way. More and more universities, private and public, follow suit. Over 700 colleges currently require COVID-19 vaccines.

Most colleges already require on-campus students to be vaccinated against viral diseases like measles, mumps, and rubella. Government agencies suggest that schools may similarly require the COVID-19 shots.

 
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Students, Faculty To Host ‘Vaccinate Penn State’ Rally August 27​

"Earlier this month, [President] Barron implied political pressure from Penn State’s Republican-controlled legislatures served as a roadblock to requiring vaccines." [I believe this should more correctly read: "Pennsylvania's Republican-controlled legislature"]

"Nine of 14 Big Ten schools, including Ohio State on Monday, have announced requirements for COVID-19 vaccinations in one way or another. According to the Chronicle of Higher Education, nearly 800 universities nationwide have vaccine mandates in place."

"In its latest estimate, Penn State said about 82% of students living on campus are fully vaccinated. Additionally, according to the university, administrators and 'academic personnel” are respectively 94% and 82% vaccinated. Full-time staff sit at about 72% vaccinated.'"

 
Seriously, even with all the stratospheric talent we’ve had, Jordan remain higher on my list of favorite all time psu guys than anyone might think.

 
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I'm sitting at the car dealership beside some old-timer who is talking loudly with his doctor's office about anti bodies and what drugs can help if he gets covid. After a half hour of nonstop questions and accusing the doctor's office of altering his blood test so he didn't show anti bodies and would be asked to get the vaccine I'm thinking.....wouldn't it just be easier to get the damn vaccine I mean seriously people are now looking for drugs to treat it in case they get really sick instead of just getting the vaccine oh well to each his own I guess. I'm vaccinated and no magnets stick to my arm I'm really disappointed lol
 
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“Inescapable” COVID-19 Antibody Discovery – Neutralizes All Known SARS-CoV-2 Strains


....
Sotrovimab, the newest antibody therapy, was developed by GlaxoSmithKline and Vir Biotechnology after a large collaborative study by scientists from across the nation discovered a natural antibody (in the blood of a SARS survivor, back in 2003) that has remarkable breadth and efficacy.

Experiments showed that this antibody, called S309, neutralizes all known SARS-CoV-2 strains – including newly emerged mutants that can now “escape” from previous antibody therapies – as well as the closely related original SARS-CoV virus.
....
“This antibody, which binds to a previously unknown site on the coronavirus spike protein, appears to neutralize all known sarbecoviruses – the genus of coronaviruses that cause respiratory infections in mammals,” said Nix, who is an affiliate in Berkeley Lab’s Biosciences Area. “And, due to the unique binding site on mutation-resistant part of the virus, it may well be more difficult for a new strain to escape.”

Subsequent tests in hamsters suggest that this antibody could even prevent a COVID-19 infection if given prophylactically. The new work was published in Nature.
 
If you rearrange the letters in vaccine. It spells Satan. I guess people were right to resist vaccines, after all!
 
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