COVID gratuitous dumpster fire thread

[Dogwelder]

Big rec for this one. I see it as the central issue we face that prevents us from addressing any other.

Our central issue is that our human brains are hackable if given enough repetition of messages, and once cable channels and Internet brought down the cost of that repetition, people found it profitable to hack our brains and turn us against our brothers using tribalism, circumventing the peacetime net-benefits analysis that democracy assumes voters are capable of, and replacing that peacetime analysis with ~wartime analysis in which “I will vote against my objective material interests if it means helping to defeat my former brothers whom I now see are the enemy.”

It’s a daunting problem. We can defeat it if we all LOVE EVERY AMERICAN! Even Jammenz.

 

[nerfstate]

Our central issue is that our human brains are hackable if given enough repetition of messages, and once cable channels and Internet brought down the cost of that repetition, people found it profitable to hack our brains and turn us against our brothers using tribalism, circumventing the peacetime net-benefits analysis that democracy assumes voters are capable of, and replacing that peacetime analysis with ~wartime analysis in which “I will vote against my objective material interests if it means helping to defeat my former brothers whom I now see are the enemy.”

It’s a daunting problem. We can defeat it if we all LOVE EVERY AMERICAN! Even Jammenz.

You’ve seen the film? Your post pretty much covers the gist.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Kudos to Netflix for highlighting this serious issue, but ironically after the credits they immediately choose a show/ movie for you to watch. Mine was Schitts Creek.

 

[nerfstate]

Kudos to Netflix for highlighting this serious issue, but ironically after the credits they immediately choose a show/ movie for you to watch. Mine was Schitts Creek.

A lot of the dudes in the film haven't divested themselves of their stock either--but it's still an important watch.

 

[Dogwelder]

You’ve seen the film? Your post pretty much covers the gist.

No. I had never heard of the film until now. But I lived through the birth of CNN, and I read about the use of mass media (hate radio) in Rwanda to create tribalism where there had been little recent tribalism, and I saw to my shock that US voters after the mid 1990s would not punish politicians for dismantling democracy.

 

[nerfstate]

No. I had never heard of the film until now. But I lived through the birth of CNN, and I read about the use of mass media (hate radio) in Rwanda to create tribalism where there had been little recent tribalism, and I saw to my shock that US voters after the mid 1990s would not punish politicians for dismantling democracy.

Film's focus is on the current toolset (which is orders of magnitude cheaper--and ever-better with machine learning built in from jumpstreet--than even cable TV), but yeah, you get it.

 

[David Keller]

The real question is:

How do we explain that 274,000+ more people have died this year in the US compared to other recent years that had no COVID?

If I hear a person explain possible answers to this question, then I will know whether that person is science minded or merely says sciency words here and there.

Science - this goes into medical statistics. PSC degree in Biology/Cell Biology. Process would be complex and is being done. You will need to wait awhile. First the stats for actual deaths need verified. Then they are looked at by location, density (jail, homes, etc), then what % was pure Covid, etc. How the more difficult part: in the past you are referring to some form of flu with no lockdown. Covid required a lockdown in most countries. What is being looked at now across the world is the increase in deaths not related to Covid: suicide, cancer and heart attaches due to increased stress from being locked down, added into this other less obvious deaths. You compare these in a normal non-locked down flu season. I have already read reports (all in the initial phases) that indicate there are way more deaths than most are aware of.

There is also work being down on non-death issues: depression not leading to suicide, spousal abuse, child abuse and general despair. Financial ruin: lost wages, defaulting on Bank debt etc. It goes on and on.

And then, can we get non-politicalized reports telling the "truth". A massive job. And at least for me, a better definition of a pandemic and who should make the call.

 

[PASLP2]

Imagine all the undocumented comments killed by COVID.

 

[AgSurfer]

Back to wrestling. Greatest heavyweight match ever!

 

[js8793]

Since the year is only 3/4ths over, I think I will wait for the final count at year end to see exactly how many excess deaths actually occurred over the whole year since that is still subject to change and could go down. Then I will look at the population change, demographics by age, and overall death rate to see how out of proportion they might be. Then perhaps it can be addressed.

You are asking why a team has more losses than last year three quarters of the way through the season, while they are still only on pace for more losses than last year, without looking at total games played, strength of schedule, composition of the roster, and then saying it must be the coaches fault. It is too early to know. Occum can't shave a beard that hasn't grown yet.

This isn't an NFL season. The country isn't going to put Nick Foles in and not have anymore people die in the final three months to keep our yearly death total in normal range. The scenario you're laying out would be a world-historical stoppage of, not just covid death, but all death in general (read not remotely possible).

 

[js8793]

Exactly right. If a person is killed by gunfire, why do people always blame the triggerman and/or the gun when the physical laws of nature did the dirty work of throwing the bullet into the victim. Maybe Mother Nature should be charged with murder.

Please answer this very simple question: I have hemophilia. I get stabbed. Due to my hemophilia, I bleed out and die very quickly. Who killed me? My hemophilia or the guy who stabbed me?

 

[Cali_Nittany]

Please answer this very simple question: I have hemophilia. I get stabbed. Due to my hemophilia, I bleed out and die very quickly. Who killed me? My hemophilia or the guy who stabbed me?

Yourself. You forgot to bring your gun to the knife fight.

 

[The Japanese Whizzer]

Back to wrestling. Greatest heavyweight match ever!

View embedded media

I have to go with this one, shaped my childhood:

 

[Ski]

This isn't an NFL season. The country isn't going to put Nick Foles in and not have anymore people die in the final three months to keep our yearly death total in normal range. The scenario you're laying out would be a world-historical stoppage of, not just covid death, but all death in general (read not remotely possible).

Thanks. I will wait for the final stats to include types of deaths before I pass judgement. You go right ahead and draw any conclusion now that you wish. More power to ya, Brah!

 

[Dogwelder]

This isn't an NFL season. The country isn't going to ... not have anymore people die in the final three months to keep our yearly death total in normal range ...

As long as enough dead people come back to life before January 1, this year’s death total would still be good to go. The CDC has already placed an order for 400,000 monkey paws from India.

 

[Ski]

As long as enough dead people come back to life before January 1, this year’s death total would still be good to go. The CDC has already placed an order for 400,000 monkey paws from India.

I think I will wait for the final numbers to come in concerning total deaths, because regardless of what the OP stated, those rates can go down over the last 3 months. Then I want to look at the population change to see if an increase can account for some of the excess. Then I am going to look at those classified as respiratory deaths to see how much those really increased. Did Flu deaths go down as Covid went up? Then I want to look at the composition of the population by age groups and compare it to past years. Things like there were some down years for births during WW-II and a baby boom in the years after. Are those baby boomers now reaching the age where they begin to die off in larger numbers? How much data one uses to answer a question also indicates how scientific one is. Anyway, it looks like you already figured out both your answer and the cause. Good deal!

 

[Pennstate1985]

Please answer this very simple question: I have hemophilia. I get stabbed. Due to my hemophilia, I bleed out and die very quickly. Who killed me? My hemophilia or the guy who stabbed me?

Most people call that murder. Your question is poorly framed. There are many better examples out there to get to the heart of your actual question. If a person has an illness (cancer as an example) that prevents them from staving off the effects of another illness (Covid or flu for example) then historically the death certificate will state the death as complications of cancer. Just because that answer is unsatisfying to you doesn’t make it wrong.

 

[82bordeaux]

The scenario you're laying out would be a world-historical stoppage of, not just covid death, but all death in general (read not remotely possible).

 

[Dogwelder]

... Who killed me? My hemophilia or the guy who stabbed me?

I hope the guy did not stab you because you are hemo. There is no place for hemophobia in today’s day and age.

#doyoulikegladiatormovies?

 

[js8793]

Most people call that murder. Your question is poorly framed. There are many better examples out there to get to the heart of your actual question. If a person has an illness (cancer as an example) that prevents them from staving off the effects of another illness (Covid or flu for example) then historically the death certificate will state the death as complications of cancer. Just because that answer is unsatisfying to you doesn’t make it wrong.

I think it's incredibly disingenuous for you to say that people with comorbidities shouldn't count towards the death toll. The reality that you never want to address is that those people would not be dead if they hadn't gotten covid. We're talking about diabetes, smokers, asthmatics, high blood pressure, obesity, etc... These people that you're trying to erase aren't all 3 days from death with pancreatic cancer. Why stop there? We're all going to die eventually, so who's to say covid caused any extra death at all?

No matter how much you try to muddy the waters, at the end of the day you can't explain why we're going to have an extra 200k+ deaths this year without acknowledging covid. And you can't acknowledge it because your guy happened to be president when it happened. If Hillary were in charge (and to be clear it would have still been a disaster under her too), you'd be calling her the worst president in our nation's history.

I'll give you one thing. At least this time you haven't linked an article claiming a jewish marxist conspiracy is behind the virus like you did the last time we interacted...yet.

 

[Pennstate1985]

I'll give you one thing. At least this time you haven't linked an article claiming a jewish marxist conspiracy is behind the virus like you did the last time we interacted...yet.

I think you have me mixed up with someone else. I really don't have any idea what you're talking about in that sentence but it defines you in many ways that you use something like that as a talking point. I'm strictly a science and economics guy. I don't play the fools game of race and religion. I'll leave that to you.

I gather that subtlety is not your strong suit since you've already tried to use hemophilia and being knifed as somehow related in context to cancer and the flu. They are not. I've tried to be nice about it but honestly I just don't think you're up for this conversation. Maybe just stand down and let Dogwelder take over from here. You and he seem to be aligned but he has a much better grasp on the discussion than you do and even forgives you for being a hemo. This is our last correspondence so I'll let you take it from here and get the last word.

 

[js8793]

I think you have me mixed up with someone else. I really don't have any idea what you're talking about in that sentence but it defines you in many ways that you use something like that as a talking point. I'm strictly a science and economics guy. I don't play the fools game of race and religion. I'll leave that to you.

I gather that subtlety is not your strong suit since you've already tried to use hemophilia and being knifed as somehow related in context to cancer and the flu. They are not. I've tried to be nice about it but honestly I just don't think you're up for this conversation. Maybe just stand down and let Dogwelder take over from here. You and he seem to be aligned but he has a much better grasp on the discussion than you do and even forgives you for being a hemo. This is our last correspondence so I'll let you take it from here and get the last word.

On 9/6, over on HR you linked the following article: https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/...ve-been-more-suicides-than-death-by-covid-19/

You were immediately called out on it by multiple posters because the article not only contains blatantly out of context quotes to push a false narrative, but also deals in antisemitic conspiracy theories by claiming Jewish men (Jeff Zucker and Klaus Schwab, who have no apparent connection other than their ethnicity) were behind a Marxist "New Green World Order/Global Reset" plot to take over the world.

Either 1 of 2 things: You are an antisemitic/racist conspiracy theorist yourself or you're not capable of recognizing these very obvious tropes that are extremely common on fringe far-right sites like the one you linked. Either way, it's clear you have no standing for that condescending second paragraph.

Unsurprisingly, you disappeared as soon as everyone pointed out how absolutely batsh*t insane your article was.

 

[Pennstate1985]

On 9/6, over on HR you linked the following article: https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/...ve-been-more-suicides-than-death-by-covid-19/

You were immediately called out on it by multiple posters because the article not only contains blatantly out of context quotes to push a false narrative, but also deals in antisemitic conspiracy theories by claiming Jewish men (Jeff Zucker and Klaus Schwab, who have no apparent connection other than their ethnicity) were behind a Marxist "New Green World Order/Global Reset" plot to take over the world.

Either 1 of 2 things: You are an antisemitic/racist conspiracy theorist yourself or you're not capable of recognizing these very obvious tropes that are extremely common on fringe far-right sites like the one you linked. Either way, it's clear you have no standing for that condescending second paragraph.

Unsurprisingly, you disappeared as soon as everyone pointed out how absolutely batsh*t insane your article was.

Just because a couple Jewish men are named in an article doesn't make the article anti-Semitic. Is that what you are suggesting? In all honesty, I don't know who is Jewish and who is not. Except you! There's nothing wrong with the article I posted on HR except that you don't agree with it.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

@El-Jefe
So far your plan is working.

 

[js8793]

Just because a couple Jewish men are named in an article doesn't make the article anti-Semitic. Is that what you are suggesting? In all honesty, I don't know who is Jewish and who is not. Except you! There's nothing wrong with the article I posted on HR except that you don't agree with it.

So it's option number 2. Anybody who is familiar with that corner of the internet can recognize that dog whistle. What does the president of CNN and a random guy who sits on the World Economic Forum have to do with each other?

Since you stand by the article, do you believe the following?

More suicides than covid deaths (200k + suicides, which would be quadruple the usual annual rate)?
Jeff Zucker and Klaus Schwab are personally responsible for 200k+ deaths themselves?
Multimillion dollar media corporations CNN, NYT, and WaPo (owned by the richest man in the world) are "Marxist"? If so, can you explain what you think Marxist means?
Zucker, Gates, Soros, Schwaub, and Fauci are engaged in a global conspiracy to create a "New Green World Order" and "Global Reset"?

Because those are the claims of the article you think is so informative.

Hint: the first tag for the article at the bottom of the page is "Conspiracy"

 

[Pennstate1985]

So it's option number 2. Anybody who is familiar with that corner of the internet can recognize that dog whistle. What does the president of CNN and a random guy who sits on the World Economic Forum have to do with each other?

Since you stand by the article, do you believe the following?

More suicides than covid deaths (200k + suicides, which would be quadruple the usual annual rate)?
Jeff Zucker and Klaus Schwab are personally responsible for 200k+ deaths themselves?
Multimillion dollar media corporations CNN, NYT, and WaPo (owned by the richest man in the world) are "Marxist"? If so, can you explain what you think Marxist means?
Zucker, Gates, Soros, Schwaub, and Fauci are engaged in a global conspiracy to create a "New Green World Order" and "Global Reset"?

Because those are the claims of the article you think is so informative.

Hint: the first tag for the article at the bottom of the page is "Conspiracy"

If I recall, my point was related to the CDC which is why I referenced that article, because it had relevant quotes. You've decided to make it about Jews and Marxism. That's on you. Maybe the problem is you. Actually the problem is you. Take your garbage elsewhere. You're the least informed person on this forum about a number of issues, so all you have left after making a fool of yourself over the hemophilia/knife question is to try to "cancel culture" me. Doesn't work on me so take the trash elsewhere.

 

[js8793]

If I recall, my point was related to the CDC which is why I referenced that article, because it had relevant quotes. You've decided to make it about Jews and Marxism. That's on you. Maybe the problem is you. Actually the problem is you. Take your garbage elsewhere. You're the least informed person on this forum about a number of issues, so all you have left after making a fool of yourself over the hemophilia/knife question is to try to "cancel culture" me. Doesn't work on me so take the trash elsewhere.

Which point about the CDC in the article do you agree with? The only one I see is the claim that there have been more suicides than covid deaths (this was a misquote of a CDC official taken out of context).

And I'm not trying to cancel you. Just trying to show everyone that they should take everything you say with a grain of salt given the sources that inform your beliefs.

 

[El-Jefe]

@El-Jefe
So far your plan is working.

TL;DR version of this thread:

 

[js8793]

TL;DR version of this thread:

Listen, I'm just doing my part and taking advantage of a slow day at work like God intended.

 

[82bordeaux]

This guy is behind it all...

 

[CropDuster507]

I hope none of you have had poor interactions with the virus. I've known a little less than 10 confirmed cases, and their experience makes it difficult for me to take some of the absurdity seriously.

EX: We just brought football back in MN. One of my athletes plays on a small town 9-man team. He was told he cannot go to National Club Duals in Wis Dells (where everyone will have to be masked when not wrestling) without quarantining for 14 days afterwards (effectively ending his football season). However, his football team is travelling the same time length in-state to play a football game with little to no specific contract tracing amongst 22 HS boys running into each other over and over without a mask on.

Like, it's real. I'm not denying it. I'm just tired of the absurdity in what everyone interprets "safe" to be.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Which point about the CDC in the article do you agree with? The only one I see is the claim that there have been more suicides than covid deaths (this was a misquote of a CDC official taken out of context).

And I'm not trying to cancel you. Just trying to show everyone that they should take everything you say with a grain of salt given the sources that inform your beliefs.

After trying to make a point that hemophilia/knifing is equal to cancer/flu, you have no intellectual standing. To then go to “he’s a racist” as your fallback makes you look silly.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

Might I suggest @Pennstate1985 and @js8793 as the undercard for the next presidential debate?

 

[js8793]

After trying to make a point that hemophilia/knifing is equal to cancer/flu, you have no intellectual standing. To then go to “he’s a racist” as your fallback makes you look silly.

I never made that point. The answer is obviously that it's more complicated than that. I used that example to show that your complete dismissal of all deaths w/ preconditions was disingenuous. In my example, I wouldn't be dead if I didn't get stabbed, but I might have survived a stabbing if I didn't have hemophilia. It's the combination of the factors that killed me. In yours, I suppose you could still have died anyway if you didn't get the flu, but lots of people with cancer do die from the flu who would have eventually beaten their cancer. That's why they don't let people into cancer wards during flu season.

The thing that you aren't going to be able wiggle your way out of is the extra 200k+ deaths we're going to have this year (even if Ski thinks we might have a moratorium on mortality in the last 3 months). You can talk about what you'd do differently to handle the pandemic, but dismissing it's existence and/or seriousness discredits you from the start.

And speaking of discrediting...I didn't call you explicitly racist. I also admitted it was possible that you aren't internet savvy enough to understand what you're reading. This is the case for lots of older people. I noticed you never addressed my very simple questions to you about the contents of the article. Setting aside the antisemitic dog whistles, I'm guessing that's because you know how silly you will look admitting you think there's a global Marxist conspiracy behind the virus.

 

[Hoosier Lion]

Might I suggest @Pennstate1985 and @js8793 as the undercard for the next presidential debate?

I think @js8793 kicks his A$$

 

[nerfstate]

Not enough of THIS GUY lately.

 

[David Keller]

I have now kinda read most of these posts and wonder if I can get my hour back?

 

[Ski]

Might I suggest @Pennstate1985 and @js8793 as the undercard for the next presidential debate?

If they are any good at freestyle they can be on the next NLWC card in October.

 

[Pennstate1985]

If they are any good at freestyle they can be on the next NLWC card in October.

I’m a folkstyle fan myself. I like mat wrestling more than the neutral position. Not that I hate freestyle.

 

[Pennstate1985]

I never made that point. The answer is obviously that it's more complicated than that. I used that example to show that your complete dismissal of all deaths w/ preconditions was disingenuous. In my example, I wouldn't be dead if I didn't get stabbed, but I might have survived a stabbing if I didn't have hemophilia. It's the combination of the factors that killed me. In yours, I suppose you could still have died anyway if you didn't get the flu, but lots of people with cancer do die from the flu who would have eventually beaten their cancer. That's why they don't let people into cancer wards during flu season.

The thing that you aren't going to be able wiggle your way out of is the extra 200k+ deaths we're going to have this year (even if Ski thinks we might have a moratorium on mortality in the last 3 months). You can talk about what you'd do differently to handle the pandemic, but dismissing it's existence and/or seriousness discredits you from the start.

And speaking of discrediting...I didn't call you explicitly racist. I also admitted it was possible that you aren't internet savvy enough to understand what you're reading. This is the case for lots of older people. I noticed you never addressed my very simple questions to you about the contents of the article. Setting aside the antisemitic dog whistles, I'm guessing that's because you know how silly you will look admitting you think there's a global Marxist conspiracy behind the virus.

I don’t do dog whistles. Apparently you’re into those things. I can’t believe you were able to discern my global Marxist racist conspiracy theory tendencies by a single link I posted a couple months ago specifically addressing the increase in suicides and drug overdoses. No more, no less. I was able to hide all of my real feelings for the last ten years and more recently in my replies to Dogwelder, but you smoked me out based on a single link. Bravo to you. It’s divisive people like you that are bringing down this country. No civil discourse is allowed without motives coming into play. It’s a real shame that people can’t debate reasonably divergent opinions and ideas without one side or the other being attacked, not on substance, but on character. Attacking people rather than ideas means you had already lost the argument. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I know you’re not. I see people like you every day in my real life. You make no effort to understand anyone or their ideas. It’s about winning and losing. So just go on believing you’re right about everything and let’s see how your life turns out.