COVID gratuitous dumpster fire thread

[Ski]

I stopped reading here. Yes, by all means lets have states compete against each other for scarce resources, to fight a virus that doesn't recognize state boundaries. Let's not use the vast resources of the Federal government to mobilize industries to provide those resources. Let's not use the Federal government to organize the use of those resources when and where they are most needed.

You Trump apologists are nuts.

What resources did the states lack that the Federal government did not mobilize to provide? Ventilators? Hospital beds? Masks?

What happens if say, the Governor of NY says, "Federal government, you are stepping outside your Constitutional powers and we states don't have to follow your rules." Then what?

You Socialism apologists are nuts.

 

[NothingMeaningful]

What resources did the states lack that the Federal government did not mobilize to provide? Ventilators? Hospital beds? Masks?

What happens if say, the Governor of NY says, "Federal government, you are stepping outside your Constitutional powers and we states don't have to follow your rules." Then what?

You Socialism apologists are nuts.

The Federal government did not invoke its powers to mobilize *anything*, so it is irrelevant what the states needed. In fact, the Federal government seized some resources that were bound for the states.

I'm talking the reality of what happened, and you are talking about unlikely "what if" scenarios.

 

[Ski]

The Federal government did not invoke its powers to mobilize *anything*, so it is irrelevant what the states needed. In fact, the Federal government seized some resources that were bound for the states.

I'm talking the reality of what happened, and you are talking about unlikely "what if" scenarios.

I am talking about sending hospital ships to where they might be needed and mobilizing industry to produce ventilators and masks. What is "what if" about that? It happened and it was the federal government. And, the Governor of NY most certainly did say that they did not have to play by the Federal lockdown rules. That is a reality too, not "what if".

 

[Creek Side]

Damn you El Jefe! Damn You!
😣 😉

 

[82bordeaux]

@El-Jefe you started this thread...

 

[82bordeaux]

Damn you El Jefe! Damn You!
😣 😉

I guess we both decided to lynch El-Jefe at the same time!

 

[82bordeaux]

In fact, I think everyone on this list seems pretty nice and I don’t have bad thoughts about you or anyone else.

The best statement made on this thread (and most others as well). Let's not forget it!

 

[yekrut321]

I believe Jefe's plan is working rather well!! The other threads have not been as adversely affected.

 

[Dogwelder]

What resources did the states lack that the Federal government did not mobilize to provide? Ventilators? Hospital beds? Masks?
...

You’re right. Ninth worst in a world of ~200 countries is the best possible for the US. Whatever steps that got us to 9th worst in the world must be the best possible. Any suggestion of better ways must be categorically wrong.

 

[Ski]

You’re right. Ninth worst in a world of ~200 countries is the best possible for the US. Whatever steps that got us to 9th worst in the world must be the best possible. Any suggestion of better ways must be categorically wrong.

You are moving the goalpost. The response was about how the federal government reacted and the supposed lack of a response. Where did I say it was the best possible response? There are limits to Constitutional powers of the Federal government that don't go away in a pandemic. That is a Constitution thing, not a Trump thing.

So, what do you suggest should have been done differently?

 

[El-Jefe]

I believe Jefe's plan is working rather well!! The other threads have not been as adversely affected.

In 19 days, we've had exactly 1 case of another thread being infected. It was a mild case, was quickly cured, and has not spread.

 

[1032004]

You are moving the goalpost. The response was about how the federal government reacted and the supposed lack of a response. Where did I say it was the best possible response? There are limits to Constitutional powers of the Federal government that don't go away in a pandemic. That is a Constitution thing, not a Trump thing.

So, what do you suggest should have been done differently?

I agree with you that I'm not sure if I would go as far as saying the federal government's response was a complete failure, but there were certainly a few things they could have done differently.

The biggest being testing. You would think the US would have had a much better testing capacity, particularly early on (although I know part of the issue was some of the first tests from the CDC were faulty).

In addition, not sure if this was 100% confirmed but supposedly USPS wanted to send out 650 million masks but it was nixed - https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pos...d-650m-face-masks-americans/story?id=73081928

 

[86PSUPaul]

The best statement made on this thread (and most others as well). Let's not forget it!

PENN STATE!!!!!

 

[Dogwelder]

You are moving the goalpost. The response was about how the federal government reacted and the supposed lack of a response. Where did I say it was the best possible response? There are limits to Constitutional powers of the Federal government that don't go away in a pandemic. That is a Constitution thing, not a Trump thing.

So, what do you suggest should have been done differently?

> moving the goalpost

Wanting to be good instead of 9th worst in the world is the whole point. That is the correct goalpost. Do you want to suggest a different goalpost, such as “handsomest in the world, ignoring obesity, because masks are ugly”?

 

[Dogwelder]

You are moving the goalpost. The response was about how the federal government reacted and the supposed lack of a response. Where did I say it was the best possible response? There are limits to Constitutional powers of the Federal government that don't go away in a pandemic. That is a Constitution thing, not a Trump thing.

So, what do you suggest should have been done differently?

> What should have been done differently?

You ask as if you deserve to be skeptical.

When the richest country in the world is 9th worst in the world, the burden is not on me to repeat again and again all the mistakes that were made. The burden is on you to show that each of the many alleged mistakes (see: news headlines) was somehow unavoidable.

But I’ll help you remember just a few obvious things that should have been done differently.

(1) More tests: For example, not stopping private companies from developing tests and not telling them to await the *Federal* CDC tests which were defective and too late and too few. Not bungling the CDC test development task. Helping fund an immense capacity of low-delay testing that we STILL don’t have.

(2) Unified procurement and leadership: For example, not making states and localities compete with one another and get ripped off individually by unscrupulous dealers.

(3) More supplies earlier: For example, actually replenishing stockpiles before the pandemic hit, and before the worldwide shortages hit. For example, as soon as Wuhan became a thing, Taiwan gobbled up mask-making machinery and materials. The US could and should have done that and more.

(4) Follow the government’s own pandemics playbook: For example, not ignoring the National Biodefense Strategy of 2018 and the national security presidential memorandum that was to implement it. For example, not disbanding the White House’s pandemic response team (the Directorate of Global Health Security and Biodefense in the National Security Council).

(5+) Avoid many other/subsidiary mistakes: For example, say “Masks are patriotic; they show you care about others”. For example, do not host super spreader events at the White House. For example, ...

 

[Ski]

> moving the goalpost

Wanting to be good instead of 9th worst in the world is the whole point. That is the correct goalpost. Do you want to suggest a different goalpost, such as “handsomest in the world, ignoring obesity, because masks are ugly”?

You chose one measure to say the US is 9th worst in the world. There are other measures of effectiveness. No one expected to stop a pandemic. The response was to "lower the curve" to prevent our health care system from being overwhelmed until it passed or a vaccine was developed. I would say we succeeded. Here are the countries with higher Covid-19 case fatality rates than the United States:

Chile
Albania
Hungary
Antigua and Barbuda
Somalia
Burkina Faso
El Salvador
Guyana
Nicaragua
Zimbabwe
Brazil
Honduras
Colombia
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Malawi
Germany
Gambia
Sierra Leone
Vietnam
Australia
Finland
Algeria
Guatemala
Barbados
Angola
Romania
Switzerland
Indonesia
Afghanistan
Kosovo
Bulgaria
Peru
Spain
North Macedonia
Tanzania
Mali
Netherlands
Ireland
Syria
France
China
Canada
San Marino
Iran
Egypt
Niger
Bolivia
Sudan
Liberia
Sweden
Chad
Belgium
United Kingdom
Ecuador
Mexico
Italy
Yemen

 

[Dogwelder]

You chose one measure to say the US is 9th worst in the world. There are other measures of effectiveness. No one expected to stop a pandemic. The response was to "lower the curve" to prevent our health care system from being overwhelmed until it passed or a vaccine was developed. I would say we succeeded. Here are the countries with higher Covid-19 case fatality rates than the United States:

Chile
Albania
Hungary
Antigua and Barbuda
Somalia
Burkina Faso
El Salvador
Guyana
Nicaragua
Zimbabwe
Brazil
Honduras
Colombia
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Malawi
Germany
Gambia
Sierra Leone
Vietnam
Australia
Finland
Algeria
Guatemala
Barbados
Angola
Romania
Switzerland
Indonesia
Afghanistan
Kosovo
Bulgaria
Peru
Spain
North Macedonia
Tanzania
Mali
Netherlands
Ireland
Syria
France
China
Canada
San Marino
Iran
Egypt
Niger
Bolivia
Sudan
Liberia
Sweden
Chad
Belgium
United Kingdom
Ecuador
Mexico
Italy
Yemen

Ha ha. Let’s just count the bodies.

I think low per capita dead bodies is a good goalpost.

 

[7brwnpsu]

In 19 days, we've had exactly 1 case of another thread being infected. It was a mild case, was quickly cured, and has not spread.

El Jefe, you isolated it! So you Are working on a vaccine in your basement? 💉 Stage 3 trials during a trip out west?

Keep up the good work!

 

[Ski]

Ha ha. Let’s just count the bodies.

I think low per capita dead bodies is a good goalpost.

Sure, because every country has the same testing rate and the same population composition by age, so every country is affected just the same. No need to look at the strength of schedule when wins and losses tell the entire story.

 

[Dogwelder]

Sure, because every country has the same testing rate and the same population composition by age, so every country is affected just the same. No need to look at the strength of schedule when wins and losses tell the entire story.

Oh. So Rutgers was the real NCAA champion all these Cael years because Rutgers had extenuating circumstances?

I’ll have to sit down with Matter and think about that one.

 

[Ski]

Oh. So Rutgers was the real NCAA champion all these Cael years because Rutgers had extenuating circumstances? I’ll have to sit down with Matter and think about that one.

No, but maybe someone has a spreadsheet that shows Rutgers NCAA tournament finish versus their ranking going in to determine how well they faired in relation to their seeding and then has a similar breakdown for other teams to compare them?

If a virus kills the elderly at a higher rate than younger people then you don't think you should consider the breakdown of population by age when comparing results between countries?

 

[Dogwelder]

No, but maybe someone has a spreadsheet that shows Rutgers NCAA tournament finish versus their ranking going in to determine how well they faired in relation to their seeding and then has a similar breakdown for other teams to compare them?

If a virus kills the elderly at a higher rate than younger people then you don't think you should consider the breakdown of population by age when comparing results between countries?

How low we have sunk as a country when we have to make not only excuses, but lame excuses. Sad.

 

[tabenn]

turn off the TV= 90% of your issues go away

 

[El-Jefe]

El Jefe, you isolated it! So you Are working on a vaccine in your basement? 💉 Stage 3 trials during a trip out west?

Keep up the good work!

If I had sufficient political power, I would place infected posters with captive populations barely able to fight a fever.

That's right, I would banish them to HR.

I'd also pull our (occasional) residents out of there, before they could get infected.

 

[David Keller]

Yeah, Grandma probably would have died next year anyway. That's your attitude? That is moral bankruptcy. There are over 200,000 people in this country who would be alive today if not for the mishandling of this pandemic.

Bullshit

 

[Ski]

How low we have sunk as a country when we have to make not only excuses, but lame excuses. Sad.

Right. You don't want to answer that because the surface number supports your belief, so no need to dig deeper. One man's valid reason is another man's sorry excuse. Frankly, I don't know if that deeper number would support me or go against me. I only know that numbers often have a deeper meaning behind them and you don't know what that meaning is if you don't look. But, when you have the answer that you want, you don't want to look deeper lest you find out it doesn't mean what you think it does.

Over and out.

 

[matter7172]

European countries should have a plan, too. They topped out around 40,000 cases per day during the first wave. Now, they're hitting 100,000 per day.

Europe records 100,000 daily coronavirus cases for first time

Europe surpassed 100,000 daily reported COVID-19 cases for the first time on Thursday, after countries such as Russia and United Kingdom saw no respite in the mounting number of infections every day in the past five days.

www.reuters.com

And they didn't start from a "base" of 40K like we are. Take a look at Germany's bar graph, for example. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/germany/ We never got the trough in cases that they did. Given the lag factor between Europe and the USA, things look to get really hairy here.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

How low we have sunk as a country when we have to make not only excuses, but lame excuses. Sad.

Can't both you and ski be correct at the same time? Yes, the federal government could have done better (for many of the reasons you listed). Yes, certain state governors should not have sent Covid into the nursing homes (the blame shouldn't be all at the federal level). Yes, the #9 ranking can be a little deceptive without taking into consideration population demographics and other factors (and yes, #9 is not something to be proud about).

 

[psumacw]

In 19 days, we've had exactly 1 case of another thread being infected. It was a mild case, was quickly cured, and has not spread.

like a miracle

 

[Dogwelder]

... Frankly, I don't know if that deeper number would support me or go against me. ...

That’s a new type of argumentation, then.

The “there must be something in the world that proves my point, please find it for me” argument.

I hate to inform you, but the US does not have anything like a top-9 life expectancy. So the “too many old people” argument is prima facie lame.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

> moving the goalpost

Wanting to be good instead of 9th worst in the world is the whole point. That is the correct goalpost. Do you want to suggest a different goalpost, such as “handsomest in the world, ignoring obesity, because masks are ugly”?

Trying to compare results country by country is virtually impossible. Heck, even calling the combined NYC and upstate NY, "New York" doesn't make sense from population density standpoint. This thing was highly contagious, and tons of people arrived from Europe and elsewhere into NYC airports. Couple that with people living on top of each other, and spreading like wildfire was bound to happen.

Country by country differences that affect the comparison include: population, population density, age distribution, mobility (including freedom, ease and propensity of movement), number of cases unknowingly allowed in, mask and social distancing mandates, attitudes of self vs. community, testing protocol, contact tracing ability, honesty in reporting and more.

What the virus hitting NY hard first did do was to allow the rest of the country to flatten the curve, and prevent hospitals from being overrun. Even NYC hospitals didn't get hit like expected, as evidenced by The Mercy and The Javits Center hardly being utilized, but the rest of the country flattened out well.

Let's take one example that some people threw out this week: New Zealand's response was great! Look at their numbers! They are an island nation, with 1.5% of our population, and a pop. density 40% of ours (no sheep jokes), with 4.7% the number of annual inbound travelers, and 6 international airports vs. 149. The fact that NZ consists of 600 islands also limits their travel. And, if their economy shut down, would we miss their $200 billion GDP?

So, yes, congratulations New Zealand. You handled covid well. If only we could be your size, population and geography, we could then maybe compare your response to ours.

Trying to compare response and results is meaningless at this point.

 

[86PSUPaul]

That’s a new type of argumentation, then.

The “there must be something in the world that proves my point, please find it for me” argument.

I hate to break it to you, but the US does not have a top-9 life expectancy. So your “too many old people” argument is doomed to be lame.

I did find this interesting, the US has the third largest number of citizens over 65, with China being number 1. And I happen to not believe the Chinese covid death numbers as "officially" reported.
Just more fuel to keep the fire going...

 

[Dogwelder]

I did find this interesting, the US has the third largest number of citizens over 65, with China being number 1. And I happen to not believe the Chinese covid death numbers as "officially" reported.
Just more fuel to keep the fire going...

Why are you talking number instead of per capita number? As we try to compare big countries with small, we need per capita numbers.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

And they didn't start from a "base" of 40K like we are. Take a look at Germany's bar graph, for example. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/germany/ We never got the trough in cases that they did. Given the lag factor between Europe and the USA, things look to get really hairy here.

See my discussion about comparing countries above. You pick Germany. I pick Italy or Spain.

Besides that, do you know what Germany did exceptionally well that helped their numbers? They protected the susceptible. Their rate of infection of 70+ year-olds is 40-50% lower than other European countries. Here, some governors, in particular, just shoved their older covid patients right back into the nursing homes.

 

[El-Jefe]

Trying to compare results country by country is virtually impossible. Heck, even calling the combined NYC and upstate NY, "New York" doesn't make sense from population density standpoint. This thing was highly contagious, and tons of people arrived from Europe and elsewhere into NYC airports. Couple that with people living on top of each other, and spreading like wildfire was bound to happen.

Country by country differences that affect the comparison include: population, population density, age distribution, mobility (including freedom, ease and propensity of movement), number of cases unknowingly allowed in, mask and social distancing mandates, attitudes of self vs. community, testing protocol, contact tracing ability, honesty in reporting and more.

What the virus hitting NY hard first did do was to allow the rest of the country to flatten the curve, and prevent hospitals from being overrun. Even NYC hospitals didn't get hit like expected, as evidenced by The Mercy and The Javits Center hardly being utilized, but the rest of the country flattened out well.

Let's take one example that some people threw out this week: New Zealand's response was great! Look at their numbers! They are an island nation, with 1.5% of our population, and a pop. density 40% of ours (no sheep jokes), with 4.7% the number of annual inbound travelers, and 6 international airports vs. 149. The fact that NZ consists of 600 islands also limits their travel. And, if their economy shut down, would we miss their $200 billion GDP?

So, yes, congratulations New Zealand. You handled covid well. If only we could be your size, population and geography, we could then maybe compare your response to ours.

Trying to compare response and results is meaningless at this point.

Even that case is a fallacy. New Zealand had outbreaks as soon as it reopened its borders even incrementally.

New Zealand also postponed its election due to the outbreaks. Captain Obvious says that wouldn't be tolerated here.

 

[Dogwelder]

Can't both you and ski be correct at the same time? Yes, the federal government could have done better (for many of the reasons you listed). Yes, certain state governors should not have sent Covid into the nursing homes (the blame shouldn't be all at the federal level). Yes, the #9 ranking can be a little deceptive without taking into consideration population demographics and other factors (and yes, #9 is not something to be proud about).

I agreee that the points you list are correct, but I think your phrasing is too vague in the critical place to be helpful. In particular, how much better do you mean by “better”?

I think the goalpost is that the US (i.e., Federal) government should have kept our deaths very significantly better than ninth worst.

I think Ski seems to be saying that the richest country in the world, the US, is a sad victim of circumstances and could not have done much better than 9th worst.

 

[js8793]

See my discussion about comparing countries above. You pick Germany. I pick Italy or Spain.

Besides that, do you know what Germany did exceptionally well that helped their numbers? They protected the susceptible. Their rate of infection of 70+ year-olds is 40-50% lower than other European countries. Here, some governors, in particular, just shoved their older covid patients right back into the nursing homes.

The media buzz around Cuomo is one of the most exceptional cases of pure propaganda I've ever seen. His nursing home order alone should have condemned him to a quick political grave.

It just shows that in this country you really only need to do the bare minimum for the public to rally to you, which is project strength and competence through your media appearances, regardless of whether that is translating to the real world. There's an alternate reality where Trump is about to romp to a landslide reelection because he didn't downplay the virus and showed basic (boring) leadership, even if he didn't actually do anything different materially.

 

[86PSUPaul]

See my discussion about comparing countries above. You pick Germany. I pick Italy or Spain.

Besides that, do you know what Germany did exceptionally well that helped their numbers? They protected the susceptible. Their rate of infection of 70+ year-olds is 40-50% lower than other European countries. Here, some governors, in particular, just shoved their older covid patients right back into the nursing homes.

And aren't a great percentage of our deaths in just a few states, states that did this in their nursing homes? Doesn't that contribute to being 9th worst? Something that the President had nothing he could have done to prevent, unless he locked up the Gov's?

 

[pawrestlersintn]

I agreee the points you list are correct, but I think your phrasing is too vague in places to be helpful (how much better is your “better”).

I think the goalpost is that the US (i.e., Federal) government should have kept our deaths very significantly better than ninth worst.

I think Ski seems to be saying that the poor rich-country US is a sad victim of circumstances and could not have done much better than 9th worst.

Lots of sad victims and their families in Cuomo, Wolfe and Murphy's rest homes.

And aren't a great percentage of our deaths in just a few states, states that did this in their nursing homes? Doesn't that contribute to being 9th worst? Something that the President had nothing he could have done to prevent, unless he locked up the Gov's?

42% of covid deaths were residents of nursing homes and assisted care facilities. NY, NJ, MA and PA lead the way.

 

[midniteride]

Right. You don't want to answer that because the surface number supports your belief, so no need to dig deeper. One man's valid reason is another man's sorry excuse. Frankly, I don't know if that deeper number would support me or go against me. I only know that numbers often have a deeper meaning behind them and you don't know what that meaning is if you don't look. But, when you have the answer that you want, you don't want to look deeper lest you find out it doesn't mean what you think it does.

Over and out.

FINALLY!!!!