Nico is a NC and 4x AA. He could wrestle for almost any RTC if he was interested.
Matt Brown is at the NLWC through the WCAP program so not relevant. But if he wasn't, he is a NC and 2x finalist and could wrestle just about anywhere also.
Jordan is a 2x AA and could find a spot at many RTCs.
Molinaro is a NC, has served as an assistant coach at multiple places and could go most anywhere.
Should PSU NOT have these guys at the NLWC? Heck, they just gave a spot to Josh Rodriguez. Should the HWC not have a spot for Brandon Sorenson if he decides to pursue post-collegiate wrestling?
This entire argument demeans at least my impression of what most wrestlers and wrestling families and the wrestling community are all about. Caveat that I am not a wrestler, nor was anyone in my family. I am purely a fan (not going to bore you with why - has nothing to do w PSU recent dominance in case anyone accuses me...). But my impression of wrestlers is this:
They aren't in it for the money. Frankly I dont think there is much money in it. Certainly before MMA there was no big payoff at the end of the rainbow. Even now I cannot imagine that 99.99% of high school wrestlers are striving to be the next Randy Couture. And even those perhaps chasing college scholarships have to know that they are almost certainly not chasing big $$$ scholarships. 9.9 total. Very limited number of D1 programs in existence. Shrinking. And not all of those even spend the 9.9.
And what do most top wrestlers end up doing from age of 10+? Camps. Private lessons. National and regional tournaments. Paid for by? Parents, parents, parents. Parents who would spend any money they could to allow their sons to follow their dreams. My sense, again without being close, is that parents spend a bunch of money on travel, hotel, coaches fees... i bet many have 2nd jobs to help pay. And like most of us, happy to do it.
So, high school junior Johnny wins Ironman and gets offered 75% scholly from Indiana. But his dream is Olympics. His dream is NCAA title. He and his parents believe the best place to achieve those goals is at PSU. But PSU is only offering 25%.
And let's face it. The kids are not the ones who are going to worry about the money 99% of the time. That is true wrestler or not. Almost all 18 year olds are not going to worry about paying off the student loans 5 years from now. The parents hold the purse strings and will be in position to help the wrestler make the financial decision.
I ask any of you... from Iowa or OSU or tOSU or Indiana or Purdue or Michigan or Lock Haven or PSU. Any of you who are parents. Would you say "no, son, you are accepting 75% from Indiana"? I don't think that is how most in the wrestling community are wired. I am not part of it as I said. Maybe I am way off. But I believe that most parents who have sacrificed this far would happily say... "it has been 10 years chasing our son's dream... let's keep up the chase".
And I know this. There were 10 sets of parents in St Louis in March, none of whom left the arena thinking "yes, but it cost us too much money". If I was clever enough I would find one of the screen shots of Cenzo's Mom after the pin... and label it "WooHoo! But he only got 50% scholly. Not worth it".
I don't believe that is how wrestling families are wired. Maybe I am dead wrong.
They aren't in it for the money. Frankly I dont think there is much money in it. Certainly before MMA there was no big payoff at the end of the rainbow. Even now I cannot imagine that 99.99% of high school wrestlers are striving to be the next Randy Couture. And even those perhaps chasing college scholarships have to know that they are almost certainly not chasing big $$$ scholarships. 9.9 total. Very limited number of D1 programs in existence. Shrinking. And not all of those even spend the 9.9.
And what do most top wrestlers end up doing from age of 10+? Camps. Private lessons. National and regional tournaments. Paid for by? Parents, parents, parents. Parents who would spend any money they could to allow their sons to follow their dreams. My sense, again without being close, is that parents spend a bunch of money on travel, hotel, coaches fees... i bet many have 2nd jobs to help pay. And like most of us, happy to do it.
So, high school junior Johnny wins Ironman and gets offered 75% scholly from Indiana. But his dream is Olympics. His dream is NCAA title. He and his parents believe the best place to achieve those goals is at PSU. But PSU is only offering 25%.
And let's face it. The kids are not the ones who are going to worry about the money 99% of the time. That is true wrestler or not. Almost all 18 year olds are not going to worry about paying off the student loans 5 years from now. The parents hold the purse strings and will be in position to help the wrestler make the financial decision.
I ask any of you... from Iowa or OSU or tOSU or Indiana or Purdue or Michigan or Lock Haven or PSU. Any of you who are parents. Would you say "no, son, you are accepting 75% from Indiana"? I don't think that is how most in the wrestling community are wired. I am not part of it as I said. Maybe I am way off. But I believe that most parents who have sacrificed this far would happily say... "it has been 10 years chasing our son's dream... let's keep up the chase".
And I know this. There were 10 sets of parents in St Louis in March, none of whom left the arena thinking "yes, but it cost us too much money". If I was clever enough I would find one of the screen shots of Cenzo's Mom after the pin... and label it "WooHoo! But he only got 50% scholly. Not worth it".
I don't believe that is how wrestling families are wired. Maybe I am dead wrong.
Cop out.
Ohio State volume of posters on HR + their web design are both irrelevant.
Those being your reasons for posting here, haters gonna hate.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Reread the thread. I was directly responding to someone who said that the only former PSU wrestler who is on the NLWC team currently is DT.
I made no statement about the worthiness of any of them being in the club.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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I don't have to make a new login to post here. I didn't know OSU even had a forum, because there posters don't flood HR. HR is flooded by PSU posters which is why I know about BWI. I posted this here bc you guys love to mock it when HR discusses it, but now Flo is discussing it as well. Just wanted to see what you guys had to say about it, and so far the responses have been about what I expected.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Lol, but what about the other guys on the roster who could be starters elsewhere and getting significant scholarship money? If it were only 10 studs, then it would mathematically make sense.
OK, then a question. Why are we discussing the NLWC in terms of cheating then? There is not one example anyone can point to in terms of a wrestler being at the NLWC - nor any other RTC - that didn't earn the right to be offered a spot there? So where is the cheating?
Translated: you don't care about an issue with the sport enough to bother to create a login, even when provided a link. You care about trolling PSU fans.
seriously what did you expect? a bunch of PSU fans to say "oh, Flo is discussing cheating with regard to the camps and RTCs. that must mean Cael is cheating. time to give back the titles and become Hawkeye fans since they do it the 'right way'.?
Fact is, the first thing Cael was told when he took the job was that if he broke NCAA rules he would be fired immediately. The NCAA hates Penn State. There isn't a single bit of evidence in the public domain that PSU is cheating. Certainly Suriano would be tempted to spill the beans, no? No evidence. Keep hating.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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The presumed cheating is through excessive camp payment, or for loan reimbursement as a means of bypassing the 9.9 scholarship limitation. Both of these things violate the NCAA bylaws. It's not hard to see why people are questioning PSU when you do the math of 9.9 divided by the guys PSU has.
Also, flo didn't name schools in this episode. I always stand by innocent until proven guilty. You should be able to see why people are asking questions though.
Honest question, Vodka? If your son was a top flight wrestler and he wanted to go to PSU. But it would cost $100k more than to go to a school that hadn't had as much recent success. He really thought Cael and company and the 'room' was the best fit. He wanted the max chance at team national title and maybe individual success at NCAAs or Olympics. But it would cost you an extra $100k. Would you say "no"? Or would you take out a loan?
Sorry but can't agree with this part. Not the least of which: they're not just like you and me on a message board. To say there isn't a higher standard is to say there is no standard, because, well, the boards set their own standards, often so low that worms can jump over them.
This doesn't sound like a realistic scenario at all. I heard from a reliable source that parents are heartless soul sucking monsters just like Bael and would never pay more to have their sons go to the top wresting program in the country. I just can not comprehend why top wrestlers (or their parents) would want to come to Penn State. After all, the coaching there sucks. I also heard that "fun" is actually a code word for "loan forgiveness". So when you hear the wrestlers talk about how much "fun" they are having, you now know what they are actually talking about.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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I would send him to any of the other amazing programs that were able to provide him a full ride. Could be schools like OSU, Iowa, Okie state, ISU now with that coaching staff, Nebraska. All I know is if my kid could get a full ride at one of those schools but only say 50% at PSU, then it's a no brainer.
I know the camp payment is your thing, which I don't get because I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks these kids are getting 10s of thousands of dollars each summer through the NLWC camps. But that's not what we are discussing.
Loan reimbursement???? See, this is exactly the kind of BS that I'm talking about. Are you trying to say that the NLWC is just gifting kids a lump sum upon graduation to take care of their loans? If you do, that is an NCAA violation, but I think you are crazy. Most people, I think, are saying that they go to the NLWC as resident wrestlers and receive a salary. Which IS NOT an NCAA violation. Is the university prohibited by the NCAA from hiring athletes as coaches, are athletes prohibited from using the university alumni association to secure employment after graduation? The answer is no. And there has never been a PSU wrestler that was taken on by the NLWC that did not have the credentials to be there or anywhere else for that matter. Just like at the HWC.
Is it an advantage to have a very well funded RTC which gives more opportunities to wrestle post-collegiate-ly than say the Penn RTC? Yes, but there is nothing against NCAA violations nor is it bending the rules. It's not even in a gray area ethically. Seriously, one of the problems with the HWC was that it was so small, a problem that Brands recognized and is now trying to address.
If Penn State is promising the kids that salary during recruitment to effectively supplement their 9.9 scholarship limit, it is an NCAA violation.
I don't think it should be, BTW. Let college athletes get paid what they're worth, whatever that is. But the above mentioned is definitely a violation (if it's happening; these are hypotheticals we're discussing).
Me: But coach your offering 60% to come here, X school is giving me 90%
Coach: Sure but if you work hard and want to compete after college in FS/GR we will give you stipend to do it.
Me: So I take out loans now and then I pay them back after college is over?
Coach: yes just like any other college grad who took out loans to go to school. but rather than punching a clock you wrestler for a livin. Like a pro athlete sort of. While your training you get another degree and net work for life after wrestling.
Me: So I can do that for a few years? Cool. Cause the basket weaving major Im looking at might not get me hired right away.
Coach: Now you get it. Just dont run to those folks at HR cause they will make this into something it isnt.
Me: you ever here of this guy Vodka? Hes wacky wack wack.
Coach: Sure but if you work hard and want to compete after college in FS/GR we will give you stipend to do it.
Me: So I take out loans now and then I pay them back after college is over?
Coach: yes just like any other college grad who took out loans to go to school. but rather than punching a clock you wrestler for a livin. Like a pro athlete sort of. While your training you get another degree and net work for life after wrestling.
Me: So I can do that for a few years? Cool. Cause the basket weaving major Im looking at might not get me hired right away.
Coach: Now you get it. Just dont run to those folks at HR cause they will make this into something it isnt.
Me: you ever here of this guy Vodka? Hes wacky wack wack.
Yes, I read mikey's troll post.
Just offering a guess. If the family actually said something anywhere near what Mikey claimed, Mikey would never have been in a position to hear it. Nor is he close enough to anybody associated with the program who would ever trust him with the knowledge of the comment.
Also, if the comment was such common knowledge it would have made its way to 34 and counting.
Mikey is what he is. A wrestling fan who trolls and has no qualms about telling a lie or two.
What evidence is there of that? None so far. NOT ONE EXAMPLE. Furthermore, take it a step further. Would that offer be good if the kid transfers, flunks out, quits wrestling, etc? No - which is why they are not making that promise.
If Cael is saying we provide a place for our wrestlers to pursue their post-collegiate goals through the NLWC and we have more resident athletes and pay better so weigh your college loans vs. that opportunity if you work hard and are successful here, well, that is what I would be saying. There is no violation, nor anything wrong ethically with that. It's like the recruiter at Princeton saying if you work hard here, your degree is going to be worth more than at Rutgers, you're going to make $100K right off the bat and those loans will be in the rear view in no time. Combine it with the fact that PSU has won 6 out of 7 and has placed many more atop the podium, and, yeah, it's a disadvantage for other schools.
This is not hard to figure out. And, yes, if I were an opposing coach I wouldn't be happy with that, but it's doubtful that the football coach at Rutgers is happy with the facilities at Alabama or PSU or the fact that Urban Meyer is telling his recruit how many players they put in the league last year and how many pro scouts visit their practices each year. And they complain about it.
It sounds to me like a loophole more than it does cheating. Admittedly i myself wonder how Penn State is able to bring in so many top recruits under the 9.9 but the key things discussed here were that these coaches were saying these things with no actual proof. That to me just sounds more like jealousy than anything else.
OK. I trust you are being honest. I would make a different call. Including sending him to Iowa if that is where he felt he could maximize his potential.
Actually, I don't think jammenz is that far off except for the basket weaving. Last I looked PSU wrestling also was excelling academically as well. I would be extolling the virtues of the NLWC to every recruit that walked through the door. I would imagine tOSU does as well since theirs is also one of the top RTCs. I don't see an NCAA violation above.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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I understand this thinking, but why is this a loophole?? Shouldn't we be celebrating this and celebrating the fact that it will cause other wrestling programs to seek more funding and expand opportunities at their RTCs? Pretty sure this is going on at the HWC now...
If I was a university the only organization I would respond to regarding your request is the NCAA. I think most of us would ignore requests for how we comply with tax laws or building codes unless they came from the proper government agency. You take yourself way to seriously.
I can name one but he's at another program. PD3. But I suppose it comes down to what you mean by "earned the right", doesn't it?
Here I thought that once the season started we would be talking about wrestling (and are in all the other threads). I know Vodka is a wrestling fan so thought that might get even him talking wrestling.
Then he comes here for his "bi-annual" (actually bi-weekly) visit to posit his vast knowledge and experience and ........gossip. Can't get enough on HR maybe. I know, where there is smoke, etc, etc, etc. We've all heard it. Its amazing how easily intelligent people fall into gossip mode (especially once someone starts something), find all kinds of excuses for it, and don't even know it. They tell themselves why in this case it is justified, yet would be outraged if someone gossiped about them.
Guess he watched too many episodes of gossip girl and just can't help it. I gave this a chance, but I'm sticking to the "good" threads from here on.
Then he comes here for his "bi-annual" (actually bi-weekly) visit to posit his vast knowledge and experience and ........gossip. Can't get enough on HR maybe. I know, where there is smoke, etc, etc, etc. We've all heard it. Its amazing how easily intelligent people fall into gossip mode (especially once someone starts something), find all kinds of excuses for it, and don't even know it. They tell themselves why in this case it is justified, yet would be outraged if someone gossiped about them.
Guess he watched too many episodes of gossip girl and just can't help it. I gave this a chance, but I'm sticking to the "good" threads from here on.
I have posted this a number of times and will again. I have firsthand knowledge of this. First hand - not PSU, but a situation with even a greater disparity in scholarship offers - full vs. 25%. It is not as simple as that. Living a working class life style you want the full scholarship, but you also want your kid to be happy and successful in some of the most important years of his life. So you weigh the pros and cons and try to give them as much information as you can. But it's their life and the loans are their responsibility. It makes for a very difficult decision.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Go read their mission statements where they directly state their job is to communicate with the public and respond to questions about NCAA rules.
its a loop hole in the minds of the people who dont have the funding of the NLWC. when flo did the article on the RTCs it was all that was needed for the bad recruiting to turn toxic.
recruiting is already dirty. now show up with the best class maybe ever assembled on paper and you have a full blown vodka-fueled conspiracy.
But, you are the virtue signaler, the hero that is going to get to the bottom of this, because big, bad Penn State has passed you up, and it can't possibly be for all of the other reasons that people have given. It HAS to be because Bael is cheating and has surpassed Iowa.
Um, oh, wait, Tom Ryan and crew have also passed you up. But, let's not check into their program. No, they're probably okay, because all of their kids' parents are willing to spend the money, their coach is just a great developer. Can't be that 'ol Tom Ryan is doing the same thing Karl is.
Why don't you just admit that you would love nothing more than to stick it Cael and PSU, and you really, really don't give a damn about how widespread the problem is. So virtuous.
Pretty sure? Can i get a source on that? Would be interesting fo Willie and CP to get on here and chime in. You know they are watching like a Hawk
Not at liberty to say name but there is a current PSU true freshman who is accepting 1/4 of money offered at several other schools to attend PSU. Now this family might be in a different financial situation than some other kids. I wish I could share more but believe me when I say top kids will pay for opportunity to be in Cael's program. And I'm a neutral observer of all wrestling.
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