FRL 243: NCAA Cheating Discussion

[dicemen99]

its a loop hole in the minds of the people who dont have the funding of the NLWC. when flo did the article on the RTCs it was all that was needed for the bad recruiting to turn toxic.

recruiting is already dirty. now show up with the best class maybe ever assembled on paper and you have a full blown vodka-fueled conspiracy.

Exactly. And the college coaches who complain to FLO rightfully aren't going to "blow the whistle" because there is no violation with the current system and the only thing that would give them equal footing in this respect is to blow up the RTC program, which they don't want to do because that would be akin to saying that Oregon is only allowed to spend as much on their facilities as Old Dominion. (not exactly apples to apples, but the closest I can come). Which the Old Dominion coach would be happy about, but if he is honest with himself he knows it hurts the sport. Unless you are pining for the days when college sports weren't big business - when was that exactly?????

 

[dunkej01]

Not at liberty to say name but there is a current PSU true freshman who is accepting 1/4 of money offered at several other schools to attend PSU. Now this family might be in a different financial situation than some other kids. I wish I could share more but believe me when I say top kids will pay for opportunity to be in Cael's program. And I'm a neutral observer of all wrestling.

several people have posted similar stories on here like this. the haters will never believe it.

but if you want, post that you have a great uncle Jane that saw cael give a stack of hundreds to a team member after a camp in podunk florida and they will saint you.

#hateknowsitsownfacts

 

[dicemen99]

Pretty sure? Can i get a source on that? Would be interesting fo Willie and CP to get on here and chime in. You know they are watching like a Hawk

Are you saying that the HWC is not bringing in more athletes than 4 or 5 years ago? Because I'm "pretty sure" this is the case, at least by reading your board. And is there anything wrong with that????

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

I understand this thinking, but why is this a loophole?? Shouldn't we be celebrating this and celebrating the fact that it will cause other wrestling programs to seek more funding and expand opportunities at their RTCs? Pretty sure this is going on at the HWC now...

It doesn’t seem like it goes against NCAA guidelines since to my understanding it’s post graduation but it also isn’t something that’s actually established. Believe me i have no problem with it. College isn’t cheap and i see nothing wrong with finding opportunities to get ahead when morally sound

 

[El-Jefe]

Pretty sure? Can i get a source on that? Would be interesting fo Willie and CP to get on here and chime in. You know they are watching like a Hawk

It's already been established that sources aren't required. Sorry, your guy made the rule.

If you want a rumor with a source, BRANDS GOT SPENCER LEE'S FATHER A JOB !!!!

Hey, I never said that was a good source.

 

[dunkej01]

Exactly. And the college coaches who complain to FLO rightfully aren't going to "blow the whistle" because there is no violation with the current system and the only thing that would give them equal footing in this respect is to blow up the RTC program, which they don't want to do because that would be akin to saying that Oregon is only allowed to spend as much on their facilities as Old Dominion. (not exactly apples to apples, but the closest I can come). Which the Old Dominion coach would be happy about, but if he is honest with himself he knows it hurts the sport. Unless you are pining for the days when college sports weren't big business - when was that exactly?????

Remember the coach that told CP and he relayed on FRL that lugo would not be going to Iowa....

I do.

#goodgossipalwaystreatedbetterthanbadgossip

 

[dicemen99]

Not at liberty to say name but there is a current PSU true freshman who is accepting 1/4 of money offered at several other schools to attend PSU. Now this family might be in a different financial situation than some other kids. I wish I could share more but believe me when I say top kids will pay for opportunity to be in Cael's program. And I'm a neutral observer of all wrestling.

This is 100% believable to me - see my above post about this exact situation I was/am involved in - and this is not a situation where money isn't an issue.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

several people have posted similar stories on here like this. the haters will never believe it.

but if you want, post that you have a great uncle Jane that saw cael give a stack of hundreds to a team member after a camp in podunk florida and they will saint you.

#hateknowsitsownfacts

Even people that don't have super-stud wrestlers make decisions like this all the time. They spend extra money to send their kid to X University, instead of Y University, even though X is $10K more for roughly the same education, but somehow the kid just feels like X is the right place for him or her or there is some other intangible benefit.

Vodka just doesn't get that.

 

[aalion]

Not at liberty to say name but there is a current PSU true freshman who is accepting 1/4 of money offered at several other schools to attend PSU. Now this family might be in a different financial situation than some other kids. I wish I could share more but believe me when I say top kids will pay for opportunity to be in Cael's program. And I'm a neutral observer of all wrestling.

this was exactly the point i was making. not everyone (not many imho) is willing to look their son in the eye and say 'i know that you believe XYZ U has the best potential for you to reach your goals and be happy, but you are going to ABC U because they offered 75%'.

None of Mr./Mrs. Cruz, Clark, Heil, Retherford, Nolf, Joseph, Hall, Nickal, Cox, Snyder left St. Louis wishing they had chased 100%.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

But, you are the virtue signaler, the hero that is going to get to the bottom of this, because big, bad Penn State has passed you up, and it can't possibly be for all of the other reasons that people have given. It HAS to be because Bael is cheating and has surpassed Iowa.

Um, oh, wait, Tom Ryan and crew have also passed you up. But, let's not check into their program. No, they're probably okay, because all of their kids' parents are willing to spend the money, their coach is just a great developer. Can't be that 'ol Tom Ryan is doing the same thing Karl is.

Why don't you just admit that you would love nothing more than to stick it Cael and PSU, and you really, really don't give a damn about how widespread the problem is. So virtuous.

I've said every single time this topic is discussed that I am not an insider. I have no evidence. I have no idea if anyone is cheating. I advocate innocent until proven guilty. If you're offended at me asking questions then sorry to hurt your feelings.

 

[WildTurk]

For the record im not calling anyone a cheater. Penn State, Ohio State, Iowa, Okie, Minny or any others. This thread is about what Willie and CP said on FRL. Waiting for their input.

 

[tikk10]

Assuming the general substance of the allegation is correct, for the sake of argument, i.e., that schools are telling prospects that the RTC can cover their tuition costs, it seems highly unlikely there'll ever be a piece of paper saying as much and thus no contract. It also strikes me that the two events are removed in time, meaning that, per this conspiracy theory, if an athlete got hurt over his four years, the RTC would still be on the hook for that athlete's tuition. How would the RTC square that? I find that really difficult to believe, but it's something like that that would need to be demonstrated.

Thing is, for the top tier guys, they can make money at the RTC, and so there might be an opportunity to set off your tuition costs. But far more e-lawyers spot a quid pro quo arrangement where one doesn't actually exist. Also not sure whether a quid pro quo deal would even be a violation (so long as it wasn't a guaranteed deal) because the wrestler would be providing value for that alleged bargain.

 

[dunkej01]

Even people that don't have super-stud wrestlers make decisions like this all the time. They spend extra money to send their kid to X University, instead of Y University, even though X is $10K more for roughly the same education, but somehow the kid just feels like X is the right place for him or her or there is some other intangible benefit.

Vodka just doesn't get that.

Im pretty sure he gets it, that why he started this thread. I also would bet heavily he had a huge smile on his face when he clicked over here and saw no one beat him to it.

 

[tikk10]

Also, here's what actual journalists do when they hear rumors like this: they investigate facts, ask questions of experts, and shut their mouths until the story can be told. Here's what amateur bloggers do: go on their podcast and pump out smoke.

 

[dunkej01]

For the record im not calling anyone a cheater. Penn State, Ohio State, Iowa, Okie, Minny or any others. This thread is about what Willie and CP said on FRL. Waiting for their input.

This board deserves a bit of HR comupans cause its awful over there at times with PSU affiliated handles. So i get it. I get the trolling tonight i really do. But at least acknowledge what your doing if your going to be a man in an anonymous world.

 

[KidNittany]

Here's the video link for those interested:

http://www.flowrestling.org/video/1...s-verbal-haters-have-us-fired-up#.WgH4-miPJPY

Highlights for those who didn't listen/watch:

Starting at 11:50, CP talks about coaches cheating. CP says he wants to report on it and do coverage on it, but the coaches and athletes are not willing to put their name out there and be a whistleblower. He mentions hearing stories about loan forgiveness through RTCs, 100% scholarship through camps. He's hearing this from D1 coaches who could be hearing this from recruits.

At 13:10 Willie jumps in and says that they're starting to get incrementally more data points and coaches approaching them and saying that this type of stuff is occurring. He follows by saying that the difficulty as a journalist on this is that they keep hearing more things, and it sounds like a situation with where there is smoke there is fire, but no one is going on record and coming out with hard evidence.

14:40 CP & Willie mention that there could also be unintended consequences if cheating is exposed (RTCs paying for scholarships or loan reimbursement, such as shutting down all the RTCs on campus.

They end by saying it seems like it's only a matter of time before someone comes out and exposes what's going on.

Willie has already stated he's not a journalist

 

[El-Jefe]

Enough of this dreck.

Gonna hoist one to the memory of Roy Halladay and wish for the best for his family.

#RIPDoc

 

[CropDuster507]

This is just the latest excuse. 2 years from now, they'll have another one.

If they're legitimately cheating and doing something nobody else is doing to some degree, than take action. If not, then this is just pissing and moaning because you're losing.

 

[dicemen99]

Assuming the general substance of the allegation is correct, for the sake of argument, i.e., that schools are telling prospects that the RTC can cover their tuition costs, it seems highly unlikely there'll ever be a piece of paper saying as much and thus no contract. It also strikes me that the two events are removed in time, meaning that, per this conspiracy theory, if an athlete got hurt over his four years, the RTC would still be on the hook for that athlete's tuition. How would the RTC square that? I find that really difficult to believe, but it's something like that that would need to be demonstrated.

Thing is, for the top tier guys, they can make money at the RTC, and so there might be an opportunity to set off your tuition costs. But far more e-lawyers spot a quid pro quo arrangement where one doesn't actually exist. Also not sure whether a quid pro quo deal would even be a violation (so long as it wasn't a guaranteed deal) because the wrestler would be providing value for that alleged bargain.

This is exactly what I have been saying, with the addition of what would happen if a kid failed out, quit the team, transferred. Seems very far fetched that a parent would accept this "agreement" that is verbal and conditional if money was what was driving the deal.

In regards to your 2nd paragraph, additionally if an athlete met these conditions and completed a successful wrestling career and a degree at PSU, as you point out that he has already made his money, whether it be by becoming a coach, resident athlete or even if he forgoes wrestling he will have many employment opportunities given his status as a successful wrestler at PSU (or Iowa or Minnesota, etc.), so what exactly is the benefit being offered him? Message board rumor mongers have put it at $50K per year plus benefits for a resident athlete - is this really an added incentive for someone that has accomplished this and is now a valuable commodity?

If this is really what is causing these kids to pick PSU, what kind of brain power must you have as a coach to not be able to point these simple facts out to a prospective recruit you are battling PSU for? And if the recruit and his family were not able to follow, would they be able to cut it at your institution?

 

[Nitt Fan]

Im pretty sure he gets it, that why he started this thread. I also would bet heavily he had a huge smile on his face when he clicked over here and saw no one beat him to it.

Here is why Vodka does not get it. When asked how he made his decision to attend college this is what he said. From HR Teske thread.
↑Wexford Warrior:
Did you go to the cheapest college you could find? Or did you choose one that met your needs and desires? Really, they are making choices that meet their needs and desires. Money is not the driving force for these elite athletes.
Vodka:
"I went to the cheapest University that allowed me to graduate with no debt so yes".
So he will never understand the mindset of the driven elite athlete.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Pretty sure? Can i get a source on that? Would be interesting fo Willie and CP to get on here and chime in. You know they are watching like a Hawk

Iowa and the HWC are clearly seeking more funding and expanding your RTC. The sources are your board insiders, the expanding HWC roster, and the running dollar tally of donations pinned to the top of your board.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Vodka just doesn't get that.

This thread isn't about me. Flo is saying they are hearing accusations that cheating is occurring.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Here is why Vodka does not get it. When asked how he made his decision to attend college this is what he said. From HR Teske thread.
↑Wexford Warrior:
Did you go to the cheapest college you could find? Or did you choose one that met your needs and desires? Really, they are making choices that meet their needs and desires. Money is not the driving force for these elite athletes.
Vodka:
"I went to the cheapest University that allowed me to graduate with no debt so yes".
So he will never understand the mindset of the driven elite athlete.

Cool. Still irrelevant to the fact that Flo is saying there are claims from D1 coaches that cheating is occurring.

 

[Nitt Fan]

Cool. Still irrelevant to the fact that Flo is saying there are claims from D1 coaches that cheating is occurring.

Maybe not. But is says a lot about you.

 

[Creek Side]

This thread isn't about me. Flo is saying they are hearing accusations that cheating is occurring.

If you talk about anything long enough on these message boards, Willie is bound to talk about it or refer to it.

 

[bowandarrow]

Morgan no longer trains at the RTC. He is now training to be a US Army Green Beret. Possibly already a training graduate and an active special forces dude.

This is very cool and impressive. All the best to Morgan.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Maybe not. But is says a lot about you.

lol you can attack me personally all you want. w/e gives you joy.

 

[slushhead]

I'll just note the following:

• This thread humors a troll.

• This thread provides more fodder for irresponsible, hack journalists to criticize and/or mock their audience for the dual purpose of killing time on a podcast and getting people to talk about them.

Many great points made in this thread, no doubt, but it is a dead horse IMO and has the cons stated above.

Just don't forget who's working tirelessly to "grow wrestling"!

#nuthinmorenoblethanclicks

 

[Cali_Nittany]

I'll just note the following:

• This thread humors a troll.

• This thread provides more fodder for irresponsible, hack journalists to criticize and/or mock their audience for the dual purpose of killing time on a podcast and getting people to talk about them.

Many great points made in this thread, no doubt, but it is a dead horse IMO and has the cons stated above.

Just don't forget who's working tirelessly to "grow wrestling"!

#nuthinmorenoblethanclicks

I don't think I've ever looked forward to a Thursday so much in my life. Meanwhile, I have a stock tip. Reynolds and Alcoa stock should be hot buys right now.

 

[nitlion6]

The presumed cheating is through excessive camp payment, or for loan reimbursement as a means of bypassing the 9.9 scholarship limitation. Both of these things violate the NCAA bylaws. It's not hard to see why people are questioning PSU when you do the math of 9.9 divided by the guys PSU has.

Also, flo didn't name schools in this episode. I always stand by innocent until proven guilty. You should be able to see why people are asking questions though.

As far as non Penn State camps. West Branch had a week long camp with a different Penn State stud each day and Coach Bainey never indicated he had to pay any of them some outlandish amount.

Loan reimbursement is a bit of a stretch. Everybody wants to point at the 5 million dollar fund as though that is evidence kids upon graduation are being made whole.

The club has Nico, Jordan, Franklin Gomez, David, Eric Thompson, the Rodriguez kid, the Greco-Roman dude, the division 3 kid. These people get paid a livable wage, health insurance, costs of travel and competing. With all of those annual costs and the supposed 100,000 plus loans being paid off, I wonder how they manage to maintain the principal.

 

[nitlion6]

Just don't forget who's working tirelessly to "grow wrestling"!

#nuthinmorenoblethanclicks

The guy with all of the vodka in Iowa?

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

As far as non Penn State camps. West Branch had a week long camp with a different Penn State stud each day and Coach Bainey never indicated he had to pay any of them some outlandish amount.

Yeah, if anything is occurring it would be University camps, not high-school camps.

 

[Sumtinwong]

I've said every single time this topic is discussed that I am not an insider. I have no evidence. I have no idea if anyone is cheating. I advocate innocent until proven guilty. If you're offended at me asking questions then sorry to hurt your feelings.

Reading Vodka's post is like watching CNN.

 

[PSUaggie]

Reading Vodka's post is like watching CNN.

Reading Vodka is like watching The View.

 

[Ian]

It never ends. The Brand boys are the only top dog doing it fair and square. What an honorable effort by both.

So I guess Bama, Clemson and O$U cheat in CFB. PSU, O$U, OkST cheat in wrestling. UCONN cheats in WBB. PSU cheats in WVB. Duke, Kentucky, UNC, and Kansas cheat in MBB. Am I missing anyone? Oh, Stanford must cheat in overall cause they are the only school that wins that award annually.

Incredible sour grapes over in Hawkeye land!

 

[purescurve]

Yeah, if anything is occurring it would be University camps, not high-school camps.

your guy just admitted to paying cash at camps. you could at least get the talking points straight. who put you up to be the fool

tiltman said: ↑
I know at our high school we've brought in guys like Imar, Gilman, Clark, Gadson, and others and almost always they negotiate their prices ranging from a couple hundred bucks to around 1000. We always pay them cash as well. I don't understand how a team could cheat this system when the money comes directly from a high school coach to the wrestler? It may very well be happening but I'm not sure how.

 

[PSUisawesome]

A) I have know idea what if anything is going on concerning this issue
B) The idea that the reason a kid goes to PSU to wrestle is anything other than a chance to wrestle with Cael and to be on THAT team is ludicrous.
C) Anyone who ever gave their heart and soul to a wrestling season knows this

 

[dunkej01]

 

[goethe14]

Lets just end this thread this way...


If any rumors are even 1 percent true obviously they are the reason PSU won 6 of 7

If not proven true its all a coverup and PSU obviously cheated.

Cael can't develop and only wins because of double classes or wrestlers who would win the NCAAs if a monkey coached them

Sound about right HR? Now take your conspiracy crap back to your board and worry about getting in the top 5 at NCAAs this year.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Last 7 NCAA's champs

2017 Penn State*
2016 Penn State*
2015 Ohio State
2014 Penn State*
2013 Penn State*
2012 Penn State*
2011 Penn State*

The King of All Trolls needs no asterisk beside his name because his trolling power is known throughout the land