Thank you, Mr. Trump. Now what testimony, exactly, was manipulated? When did Joe say his testimony was manipulated? Or is your only argument to insult me and claim Joe was old.
Good JZ interview - over an hour [link]
- Thread starter MtNittany
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Thank you, Mr. Trump. Now what testimony, exactly, was manipulated? When did Joe say his testimony was manipulated? Or is your only argument to insult me and claim Joe was old.
Speaking of manipulating things, ask him where he found his definition for "eyewitness" in the "FC- Supposedly Freeh has been deposed?" thread. He's been running from that for days.
LaJolla Lion is looking for conspiracy proof. Proof that all the so called victims got together and decided to all cry rape to get a Sandusky conviction, right?
Well, it seems the conspiracy may have started with one man, Andrew Shubin. IMO, it seems like he solicited anyone who ever had contact with Jerry from the Second Mile to say that they were groomed and to buy into his narrative. And Shubin, convinced them that they were victims of Jerry. And why would Shubin do this? To try to make a stronger case. These lawyers understand that it really looks bad when many are saying the same thing. But, LaJolla Lion, that does not give Shubin the right to coerce and lie to these people for his and their monetary gains.
Well, it seems the conspiracy may have started with one man, Andrew Shubin. IMO, it seems like he solicited anyone who ever had contact with Jerry from the Second Mile to say that they were groomed and to buy into his narrative. And Shubin, convinced them that they were victims of Jerry. And why would Shubin do this? To try to make a stronger case. These lawyers understand that it really looks bad when many are saying the same thing. But, LaJolla Lion, that does not give Shubin the right to coerce and lie to these people for his and their monetary gains.
follow the money. How much did Shubin pull in from the victim settlements? not a bad way to get rich
A lawyer looking to get paid doesn't mean JS is innocent. You guys want to blame any and everyone not named Sandusky. Shubin took advantage of a bad situation which is his problem. It doesn't mean Jerry is innocent. Be mad at me all you want to, but nothing to date has even remotely hinted that Jerry wasn't a serial pedophile. If there was concrete evidence more than a wannabe reality TV attention whore screaming not guilty people would notice. Stay mad at me because I don't entertain these childish dreams. Jerry did these crimes.
The BoT made it worse by firing Joe and making the school on the sword. That was idiotic, but still did not make Jerry innocent. I would raise an eyebrow if a legit source brought out legit info showing Jerry was framed. That has not even come close to occurring.
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That was well put, LaJolla. And I agree that Jerry's guilt or innocence should be separated from Penn State's involvement. What I take issue with is the sentence I highlighted. Not sure that applies to most here. Some of the points are legitimate, or at least raise questions. And because of that a new trial would seem appropriate to me. That said, you more likely than not are correct about Sandusky.
La Jolla, are you 100% sure that Jerry is guilty with all of these kids? Or are you 99.9% sure?
Why can't you answer the question? I sleep pretty well too.
Well I'll tell you why you can't answer the question. It's because no matter what answer you give, I'll be able to manipulate your answer to my advantage. Right? No matter what you say, you'll lose.
So if I can manipulate you and your answer in this forum, imagine what a polished lawyer could do with a bunch of kids with millions of dollars in the fold.
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Lol, 200% convinced he liked little boys and molested them. I don't need a fantasy that this was all a big mistake. He is where he needs to be until he dies. The only time these guys were tricked is when that sick SOB f-Ed them as children. You act as if this case was even close, it wasn't. Imagine what a polished serial pedophile did to young children. You block that out because you can't handle what he did. It's called denial. Talk to someone about that. Let that rotten POS die a slow painful lonely death. Is that now clear enough for you?
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You're entitled to your opinion, but so are those who believe that there are more than enough irregularities to warrant a new trial for JS. His innocence would certainly change the narrative, but it's not necessary to exonerate C/S/S and JVP, IMO. I just think that JS was never afforded the presumption of innocence that even he deserved. You think you know he's guilty. I felt that way too. Now, with good reason, I'm not so sure. What I am sure of is that those who felt the most strongly about defending Joe and the others had to portray Jerry as this horrible monster if our arguments were to be given any credibility. It was completely toxic to entertain Sandusky's innocence as a possibility. As distasteful as it sounds, Jerry Sandusky deserved better, especially from the PSU community. There are so many things we know now that we didn't know then. We shouldn't be afraid of the truth.
Jerry's victims and those he took down with him do deserve better. He doesn't deserve anything other than 3 hots and a cot. This is all about the narrative to you. Sandusky deserves to die and the PSU community owes him nothing after what he did. Nothing at all.
Is this your strategy for dealing with being called out on your made up definition of "eyewitness"?
One could accurately say "but nothing to date has even remotely hinted that Jerry was a serial pedophile". The only evidence is testimony. We've got people saying he committed the crimes, and we have people saying he didn't commit the crimes. Both sides had motivation to say what they said, so I can't really trust either. All I have to go on was the decision of the court. So he is guilty if you assume he had a fair trial. Let's face it, those who pushed the trial through hastily will never admit they didn't give him a fair trial. So it doesn't really matter if he had a fair trial, he's never getting another.
Like most things in life, the truth likely lies in the middle. You are at the extreme of one side of this argument, others are at the other extreme. I don't know what the truth is, but it likely lies somewhere in the middle. Frankly I don't really care. Joe has long ago been exonerated, C/S/S will soon be exonerated, the OG BOT will pay for their actions. None of that is dependent on JS.
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Totally agree.....and I believe JS is guilty. However, that sham of a trial was ridiculous and that's what has me continuing to doubt the verdicts. It was such a ridiculous trial that you have to believe the judge and JS's two attorneys were either totally incompetent (possible) or were in cahoots (possible).
LOL. The truth is the man was a serial pedophile and a small group of PSU fans are in denial. Jerry had access to every victim and always found a away to be slone with them. He couldn't even dispute that. He couldn't discount a single testimony against him. These were kids testifying, but adults who were raped as children. Not when they wee in diapers, but after they reached an age where they were somewhat developed. There wasn't one victim, but at least 26 with 8 actually testifying.
Again with Joe or PSU. That is the problem here. You nut jobs think that you need to feel guilty for this because the poor leadership of the school after it broke. Joe did absolutely nothing wrong. You did nothing wrong. Stop thinking that this was all one big mistake and the world will apologize to PSU, Joe, and you once Jerry is proven innocent. So far the only thing you have in 4 years is one of the victims is a screw up and the others got paid. Somehow that equates to close to 30 victims all lying because everyone loves to make up false charges against good men. The level of denial is so thick here with just this tiny group.
Keep believing he will walk, but you may want to visit him in jail and tell him how unfair the world was to Jerry. After all he's the victim here. Have at Jerryphiles. Maybe JZ's next huge interview will be the one that breaks the case.
Jerry could not even refute one victim. He had access to them and got them all alone. Just because you work with children does not mean you need to get them alone that often. 26 victims got paid, but only 8 testified. Jerry must have been one mean sick SOB to those people as kids for them all to make this up. I think all 26 had a long rap sheet and got paid from inside prison. None were good citizens at all, they all were hands out looking to bury mean Jerry. That must be it, he was too hard on them with his raspberries.
Blame the trial I guess. I don't see this trial as a huge miscarriage of justice. How many bad criminals have bad representation? Tons, but it doesn't make them innocent. These victims knew who their abuser was. He wasn't wearing a mask. The schools response was was awful, but that is a whole different problem. Leaders failed at PSU and tossed 4 under the bus. That was a real crime IMO. Jerry going to prison for life was the only great outcome in any of this. What the Old Guard BoT did to Joe, and C/S/S was pretty pathetic, but I guess some here thinking Jerry being innocent makes none of that real. It's like a fantasy I guess.
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Paternos testimony should have never even been considered in all of this. That was one of the bigger mistakes that was made. It seemed that Linda Kelly had a tinge of guilt in that regard, others none.
Did you even read what I posted? Or did you mean to respond to someone else and accidentally responded to mine? Because the content of your post is almost entirely unrelated to the content of my post.
for so many victims, I believe the complete lack of ANY forensic evidence is extremely odd
How odd? Most of the crimes were over a decade ago. In the 90's 10 year old kids weren't carrying cell phones. How much clothing do you have from when you were ten years old? I had none by the time I entered college, but maybe some people save all of their clothes? What physical evidence do you think would exist 10+ years later? Jerry's hair on them? His DNA in their mouth? I'd love to hear the rational thoughts on this. Do you think young children know to save DNA? Maybe it's because you see the victims as adults now. What forensic evidence would exist today?
Crickets? It's easy to toss crap out, but hard to answer JZ's opinions.
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Agree...but some of the judges rulings were beyond the pale (excited exuberance on the janitor, no cross on MM). I can also tell you I've worked in they system of "at risk" boys. If you work in that system for a year, YOU WILL BE ACCUSED of something. Its simply part of the gig and one of the reasons why so few pay attention to a single charge against anyone in a position of authority (priest, councilor, etc.). This is also why it is so troubling that TSM didn't have, or didn't offer up, detailed records.
And to the victims...in all of those cases there a) isn't a witness and b) is no physical evidence other than MM's testimony.
Here is a test...offer up $20m with an ad in the paper against anyone who is semi famous alleging abuse. How many calls do you think you will get? That is, essentially, what PSU did.
Again, not saying JS is innocent; not saying these kids weren't abused....just saying the whole thing doesn't pass the smell test. Everyone just wanted this to go away too much and were willing to spend anything to have that happen.....why? Why is always a reasonable question. And, I have to say, I wonder why so many people want other people to stop asking why.
Why are PSU fans attacking the victims? Are all of them bad people or are they upset this soiled some things dear to their heart? Why is a great question?
Its not an absolute. yes, some are attacking the victims. others are trying to say victims are being attacked to stifle reasonable questions.
It's just an excuse to excuse PSU somehow. And PSU is always going to get some heat over this since Jerry had some connection to PSU. I had nothing to do with this so I don't own it.
It's not certain who else has responsibility beyond a shadow of a doubt so I don't worry about it.
And Jerry is as guilty as sin and he's were he belongs.
It's not certain who else has responsibility beyond a shadow of a doubt so I don't worry about it.
And Jerry is as guilty as sin and he's were he belongs.
Reasonable questions? Some said they found it odd that no ferensic evidence existed on decade old crimes against children. What reasonable hard physical evidence do you have that you attended your middle school? Do people think Jerry videotaped these events? Were the young kids to save Jerry's hair? What have we gotten in 4 years? Aaron Fisher grew up screwed up and the other victims were paid. I feel the frustration towards the BoT, but what evidence has surfaced that exonerates Jerry in any real way? Aaron Fisher's new car JZ took a pict of? I could see if one of the victims says they were lying just to get paid and then spills the beans on others maybe? That hasn't occurred. From what I understand is that some of the victims are good citizens. Question away at the BoT, but you better have some real proof the victims are a bunch of lying thieves. Just me I guess.
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Likelihood the man Zig claims to be V2 actually is V2 = <10%. Add to this story the fact that Zigs V2 admits in the PCRA that he did not at all write the LTE which he submitted on JS's behalf AND isn't sure why he sent it. He also states that his mother made up part of his story.
Also when speaking of liars in the thread remember to list Zig himself:
"I spoke with myriad experts on child molestation—all of whom independently agreed that the vast majority of victims adjust their stories numerous times. That the norm is to change your story, not stick to one. Ziegler does not allow this as an argument. In fact, he seems to hate it."
"On his site, Ziegler notes Matt’s claim that—thanks to “repressed memory therapy”—he was able to recover recollections of Jerry Sandusky abusing him....There are two problems with this: A. Matt never said he was undergoing “repressed memory therapy”—a controversial practice that, according to Richard McNally, a Harvard psychology professor, has been largely debunked in modern times. No, what he said in a 29-minute interview with police detectives was that he was going through normal therapy sessions, and certain memories were starting to return. That’s not a parsing of words—it’s an entirely different thing."
"On his site, Ziegler says Matt came home from the first day of the trial and told the entire Sandusky family, “I could get up on the stand and lie just like that.” Ziegler reiterated to me that Matt unequivocally, “told the family of his plan.” Jeff Sandusky, Matt’s older brother and a man who believes Jerry never molested anyone, told me this is untrue. “Why would he tell us that?” he said. “That makes no sense. He’d have lost his credibility and we could have totally nailed him. No, he didn’t say that.”
" On his site and Twitter feed, Ziegler offers links to several video clips he’s created about the Sandusky case. The one he seems most excited about was released July 18, 2014 and is titled, The Overwhelming Case that Matt Sandusky Lied to Oprah Winfrey.It was a reaction to Matt’s July 17 interview with Oprah on the OWN Network, and focused on his rambling, somewhat incoherent response to Winfrey asking why he should be believed, “Did you see how horrendous that was?” Ziegler said to me during a conversation. “She asks how we know he’s telling the truth, and he’s horrendous. He stutters, sits there dumbfounded. Did you see the fear in his eyes? It was obvious. Yet the media said nothing about it.”
I contacted Dr. Dan Hill, the president of Sensory Logic and one of the world’s foremost authorities on analyzing facial expressions (and a man with no ties to the case). He watched the exchange multiple times and broke it down. “I don’t know all the specifics, but for him to say he can definitely see Matt is lying—well, that makes no sense,” he said. “The most common emotion Matt Sandusky showed in his face, by far, was sadness. Now that doesn’t necessarily mean he is or isn’t a liar. But sadness is not a common facial expression for liars, and for someone to say he knows that man is lying, off of that clip, is silly.”
And of course there is this too:
Enough. Ziegler is a fraud and a charlatan. Educate yourself.
He quotes me questioning AF, then doesn't even address his actions, his testimony, his mother, etc. but just skips right to V2. Of course V2 is going to walk back his story. He had at least 3 million reasons to, and JS was already in jail. He can sleep at night knowing it certainly wasn't him that put him there.
it amazes me, the endless circle of lies to call someone a liar
Ziegler is not above reproach, but neither are his critics
You are calling Zieglers own words lies? I provided nothing out of context. He said it multiple times in the interview (which I provided the link for, sorry can't quote the whole transcript here) in the same fashion which were all some version of:
"I believe the witnesses and don't care about forensic evidence"
Which is EXACTLY the OPPOSITE position he takes in the Sandusky case (which by the way his tweets are lying about because there are phone calls), which is that someone shouldn't be convicted w/o forensic evidence.
I stand entirely by every word I have ever written.
If you don't understand the point of the post don't blame me. You don't believe AF (supposedly because of "lies") yet the person who is doing the most to allegedly expose those lies has LIED himself and spent several years now smearing the victims.
Shubin himself claimed AM was V2 but this isn't good enough for this hammerhead apparently. Did it ever dawn on him that if there was another V2 running around somewhere that he would have stepped up to the Old Main ATM by now?
hey man if you're ok with completely misrepresenting what Ziegler said, then there's not much I can do or say
the problem he and Roxine are having is that inre OJ, Ziegler said the forensic evidence isn't needed since the witnesses were credible, gave detailed testimony (including dates and times) that put OJ at the scene of the murder, and created a solid timeline for OJ's movements
whether you believe the victims in the Sandusky case or not, there are no other witnesses to corroborate their testimony and also no forensic evidence either.
there is nuance to both arguments that Yonchuk and Behrans don't want to admit
Again what forensic evidence would be available 10+ years later? OJ's case was recent. Jerry's victims go back over 10+ years and they were children. What physical evidence do people think would exist? Not sure why this question is so tough to answer.
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