Iowa medical forfeits

[js8793]

To be clear, I said that I didn’t know about Cass. I didn’t accuse. But now I do know. So thx.

no worries. it was an early round match that most people probably weren't watching closely and he didn't take injury time, so i'm guessing most didn't notice. similar to eierman's injury against red in the dual.

i hate them as much as anybody. the ncaa has to come up with some sort of penalty. but it's a tough situation because you also end up punishing higher seeded wrestlers if you artificially lower the defaulters seed. for example, in 2020 Wick defaulted out of big tens and dropped to the 8 seed and would have been Marinelli's quarter, which wasn't fair to marinelli (sucks for wick it got cancelled because history says he would have won it all that weekend). and any sort of crackdown that incentivizes competing while injured is also a dicey situation for the ncaa. i think the best solution is to count them as losses. that would solve the default to 6th somewhat because rivera/kem would take 3 losses, but doesn't do much to solve the finals defaults.

 

[js8793]

Umm ... not the best case against MFFs at the Big Ten tournament.

yeah psu definitely doesn't have a leg to stand on. to my knowledge they were the first to forfeit a finals match with rasheed against martin (cael ahead of the game as usual haha).

but that is cael doing his job. those guys weren't healthy and ncaa's is what cael is evaluated on. he did what he thought put them in the best position to win in 2 weeks.

this is a systemic issue. it won't be addressed by individual scolding or shaming. you have to change the calculus for the coaches. that's the only way it changes. the risk of defaulting has to outweigh the risk of wrestling.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Umm ... not the best case against MFFs at the Big Ten tournament.

The entire wrestling world knew that Jasons injury was legit, I cant honestly remember how Kem was hurt. I dont have a problem with legit injuries.

 

[McScoreley]

MFF'ing multiple matches will hurt your seed (including the step on and off rule and MFFing semis and taking 6th), MFFing one will not (including the finals)

That's the standard right now.

 

[js8793]

The entire wrestling world knew that Jasons injury was legit, I cant honestly remember how Kem was hurt. I dont have a problem with legit injuries.

he got hurt defending a single leg against micah jordan in the dual and was never the same that year

 

[McScoreley]

The entire wrestling world knew that Jasons injury was legit, I cant honestly remember how Kem was hurt. I dont have a problem with legit injuries.

A lot of injuries happen in practice. A lot of them happen when you don't even know. I thought Eierman was okay after the Red injury since he just walked it off and didn't even ask for injury time. Spencer tore 2 ACLs with anyone ever knowing until he said so.

 

[js8793]

A lot of injuries happen in practice. A lot of them happen when you don't even know. I thought Eierman was okay after the Red injury since he just walked it off and didn't even ask for injury time. Spencer tore 2 ACLs with anyone ever knowing until he said so.

and to add to this, spencer outscored schroder 21-1 AFTER tearing his acl in that match

 

[nitlion6]

The brands talk like modern day gladiators.....yet they MFF like woke warriors

It seems even Iowa has gone soft. Shame

I don't have a problem with Iowa kids MFFing those matches. I have no idea how their health is. I do know 2 wear shoulder braces after missing time this year and another wears a knee brace and seemed to be having issues with it on Saturday.

Iowa going soft? Today's MFFs do not show softness. Iowa not sending a healthy Stoll out against Snyder when the dual was within 5 points is when Iowa began the transition to pussy, and the sheer fear of wrestling PSU in State College is the manifestation of Iowa turning Charmin soft.

 

[dunkej01]

he got hurt defending a single leg against micah jordan in the dual and was never the same that yea

and to add to this, spencer outscored schroder 21-1 AFTER tearing his acl in that match

Well he is from PA....

 

[nitlion6]

The entire wrestling world knew that Jasons injury was legit, I cant honestly remember how Kem was hurt. I dont have a problem with legit injuries.

Kem had been hobbled most of that season, IIRC.

 

[Lyco1990]

Bottom line. Really bad National look for the Dirty Birds. Injuries happen and suck… however when almost 1/2 the team goes down and MFF why would I send my kid there? Something wrong with the training regiment?

 

[IANit]

MFFs have to be same scoring as a pin, dual or tourney. If you don't give the pin bonus for a MFF you'll see WAY more of them because it will often make strategic sense to a have guy who is outclassed to MFF instead of losing by major or worse.

I'm not a fan of what's going on either, but that is not the solution.

Edit - Whoops, replies are coming in fast and other folks have already made this point. Oh well, I'll leave my rambling and just say "ditto"

Good point to a point. I was thinking of the points as an unearned award to the other team, but it's also kind of a deterrent to forfeiting if you're in the team race. But most of the time there are only 1 or 2 teams that would even be a factor for. The rest of the teams are only going to be concerned with protecting their wrestler's seeds. so the bonus points awarded or not awarded to the opponent aren't going to be a factor.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Here’s the thing, these guys are FFTING because they want to be healthy for the dance. Now come Detroit and these same guys will be wrestling till their limbs fall off.


Ohh speaking of… did anyone else see TWilson land on his head then weirdly fall down afterward (reminded me of the Blades girl but not near as severe) Anyway, I cant believe they didnt do protocol on him, he had to have been concussed.

 

[IANit]

yeah psu definitely doesn't have a leg to stand on. to my knowledge they were the first to forfeit a finals match with rasheed against martin (cael ahead of the game as usual haha).

but that is cael doing his job. those guys weren't healthy and ncaa's is what cael is evaluated on. he did what he thought put them in the best position to win in 2 weeks.

this is a systemic issue. it won't be addressed by individual scolding or shaming. you have to change the calculus for the coaches. that's the only way it changes. the risk of defaulting has to outweigh the risk of wrestling.

Rasheed had been injured much of that season. It didn't work out very well, anyway. He went 2-2 (DNP) at nationals and Martin lost too.

 

[donboy6499]

Dresser would call this orangeness.

View embedded media

He’s right.

 

[donboy6499]

Rasheed had been injured much of that season. It didn't work out very well, anyway. He went 2-2 (DNP) at nationals and Martin lost too.

Yes.
So if all these Iowa guys are truly so injured I expect that we’ll see it in Detroit.

 

[donboy6499]

no worries. it was an early round match that most people probably weren't watching closely and he didn't take injury time, so i'm guessing most didn't notice. similar to eierman's injury against red in the dual.

i hate them as much as anybody. the ncaa has to come up with some sort of penalty. but it's a tough situation because you also end up punishing higher seeded wrestlers if you artificially lower the defaulters seed. for example, in 2020 Wick defaulted out of big tens and dropped to the 8 seed and would have been Marinelli's quarter, which wasn't fair to marinelli (sucks for wick it got cancelled because history says he would have won it all that weekend). and any sort of crackdown that incentivizes competing while injured is also a dicey situation for the ncaa. i think the best solution is to count them as losses. that would solve the default to 6th somewhat because rivera/kem would take 3 losses, but doesn't do much to solve the finals defaults.

Count them all as DNP and let their ability to get in lean on regular season.
Boom problem solved.

 

[js8793]

Count them all as DNP and let their ability to get in lean on regular season.
Boom problem solved.

this helps for fringe qualifiers but not any of the forfeits people are up in arms over

 

[js8793]

I don't have a problem with Iowa kids MFFing those matches. I have no idea how their health is. I do know 2 wear shoulder braces after missing time this year and another wears a knee brace and seemed to be having issues with it on Saturday.

Iowa going soft? Today's MFFs do not show softness. Iowa not sending a healthy Stoll out against Snyder when the dual was within 5 points is when Iowa began the transition to pussy, and the sheer fear of wrestling PSU in State College is the manifestation of Iowa turning Charmin soft.

wow apparently somebody doesn’t respect victims of gun violence

 

[NittanyChris]

Who isn’t a little banged up at this point this season? Rivera having a knee surgery two weeks ago and MFFing is perfectly understandable. This borderline stuff is weak as Hell.

 

[donboy6499]

this helps for fringe qualifiers but not any of the forfeits people are up in arms over

It helps a lot if a conf DNP puts all these guys at the 6 or 8 seed. And if they went 0-2 yesterday that’s just about where you find them.

 

[pish69]

I honestly don’t get all the outrage (from twitter mainly) about the MFFs. If you’re hurt, the coaches are going to do what’s right for their athletes. The MFF don’t help anyone seeding wise and it hurts in most cases. What’s the issue?

 

[donboy6499]

It helps a lot if a conf DNP puts all these guys at the 6 or 8 seed. And if they went 0-2 yesterday that’s just about where you find them.

I mean imagine if Cass believed it was in play they’d stick him in a Gable 1/4 match or make Riddler go through 1/2/3 out of the 6 hole.

 

[donboy6499]

I honestly don’t get all the outrage (from twitter mainly) about the MFFs. If you’re hurt, the coaches are going to do what’s right for their athletes. The MFF don’t help anyone seeding wise and it hurts in most cases. What’s the issue?

Because the other 99% of guys hurt wrestled, and if we only wrestled 100% healthy, we’d get 3 days of college wrestling a year.

 

[IANit]

wow apparently somebody doesn’t respect victims of gun violence

Not when they're shot by their own negligence or that of one of their wrestling teammates or coaches, whatever the true story may be.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

The brands talk like modern day gladiators.....yet they MFF like woke warriors

It seems even Iowa has gone soft. Shame

You’re going to be referenced during the next paranoid press conference in front of Cody Goodwin, Todd Conner, Chad Leistikow and other worthies in the Hawkeye press corps

 

[mcpat]

I don’t think I have quite as much of a problem with MFF as others, but I also understand other’s anger / upsetness about it. When everyone views the real prize as the other tourney happening in 2 weeks, and the conference tournament as just something you have to go through to qualify for it, you’re always going to have them or something else equivalent.

 

[nitlion6]

wow apparently somebody doesn’t respect victims of gun violence

He outweighed Snyder by what, 40 pounds or so and the Hawks sent out an outmanned backup. It wasn't like Snyder was going to brutalize Stoll, it was going to be a takedown feast.

 

[Hotshoe]

We're any of their wrestlers really injured during the tournament or was it just to save them from a loss that might hurt their confidence/seeding heading into nationals? Seems like bad sportsmanship. But also interesting because they normally focus on winning the Big Tens it seems.

No idea, but holy hell is Twitter a mess regarding the defaults.

 

[dunkej01]

wow apparently somebody doesn’t respect victims of gun violence

Hey Arthur.....u may have just jumped the shark

 

[dunkej01]

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

This would penalize the wrestler who takes the mat and is denied the opportunity to earn bonus. Could also be weaponized by unscrupulous opposing coaches to deny a wrestler points and affect team scoring.

It's always been a forfeit = a pin.

Failure to compete must be penalized.

Even after the match started.

Even if the referee is late on calling an obvious potentially dangerous.

Even if the wrestler is injured with a lead.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

The one gratifying thing about Iowa.

Even if Spencer comes back next year; that line-up has enormous holes (maybe 133) 141, 149, 157, 165, 174.

And Abe Assad is no Aaron Brooks at 184.

 

[pish69]

Because the other 99% of guys hurt wrestled, and if we only wrestled 100% healthy, we’d get 3 days of college wrestling a year.

I don’t remember all the outrage on this board back when Nolf and Shak MFF. Shak in the finals. Why no outrage? Because everyone knew they were legit injuries and not bumps and bruises so to speak. Slippery slope

 

[donboy6499]

I don’t remember all the outrage on this board back when Nolf and Shak MFF. Shak in the finals. Why no outrage? Because everyone knew they were legit injuries and not bumps and bruises so to speak. Slippery slope

They both should have been dinged as tho they didn’t place. Would have taken Nolf to about, what, 6-10? He was good enough it didn’t matter.
Same with Shak and he was hurt, didn’t place. He should have been 10 seed in that state of health.
No reason not to ding these guys like they DNP. If they’re good enough they’ll place about where they should have anyway and if not then their injury should impact seeding.

 

[NittanyChris]

I don’t remember all the outrage on this board back when Nolf and Shak MFF. Shak in the finals. Why no outrage? Because everyone knew they were legit injuries and not bumps and bruises so to speak. Slippery slope

No one is griping about Kemerer’s MFF, the guy has had an injury he’s battled through all year. It’s the other guys who might be a little dinged that are the issue. Granted, we don’t know their medical status, but the Brands brothers have established themselves as the most egregious offenders of this stuff. Willie is definitely over the top sometimes, but he’s not on the wrong side on this one, IMHO.

 

[nitlion6]

No one is griping about Kemerer’s MFF, the guy has had an injury he’s battled through all year. It’s the other guys who might be a little dinged that are the issue. Granted, we don’t know their medical status, but the Brands brothers have established themselves as the most egregious offenders of this stuff. Willie is definitely over the top sometimes, but he’s not on the wrong side on this one, IMHO.

You and I will disagree on whether Willie is wrong. There is always a strong possibility Willie knows more on the subject than the rest of us do. However, like I said in a different post. 2 guys wear a constant shoulder support binder, one wears a knee brace and looked like it was bother him on Saturday and Cassioppi had a leg wrapped that hasn't been previously wrapped.

It is rather silly to think these were not legitimate moves to keep kids healthy.

 

[js8793]

He outweighed Snyder by what, 40 pounds or so and the Hawks sent out an outmanned backup. It wasn't like Snyder was going to brutalize Stoll, it was going to be a takedown feast.

mostly joking but you have to remember that getting stoll to ncaas healthy was the number 1 priority. he lost the previous 2 seasons to torn acl’s, both against smaller heavyweights who attacked his legs. the last thing they wanted was snyder feasting on his ankles. cowardly? a little, but when you have a guy who has been top 5 his whole career but never gotten to compete at ncaas because he blew out his knees both years, a little cowardice is warranted. they got him to ncaa’s healthy for the first time and he had a great tournament. it was the only healthy tournament of his career.

 

[js8793]

You and I will disagree on whether Willie is wrong. There is always a strong possibility Willie knows more on the subject than the rest of us do. However, like I said in a different post. 2 guys wear a constant shoulder support binder, one wears a knee brace and looked like it was bother him on Saturday and Cassioppi had a leg wrapped that hasn't been previously wrapped.

It is rather silly to think these were not legitimate moves to keep kids healthy.

all of them are clearly hurt, but willies point is that in the past, these guys might have wrestled hurt instead of saving themselves for ncaa’s. he wants to force guys to wrestle injured out of a principle of toughness. also keep in mind he’s several drinks in right now and loves to fight on twitter when he’s drunk.

but he’s not completely wrong. there were clearly matches that were forfeited with wrestlers healthy enough to wrestle. lovett forfeited to murin after beating blockhus. i didn’t see a noticeable injury. maybe willie can call his boy snyder out on twitter? i don’t think hildebrandt is hurt at all. northwestern kid at 174? salazar against assad? it goes on and on. but we really don’t know for sure and that’s what makes it a hard thing to judge. who are we to tell someone how hurt they are?

 

[McScoreley]

Eierman liked a few tweets on Twitter it seems that basically implies he tore his ACL against Red. Definitely bold to put that out there before NCAAs but I imagine he's very frustrated right now.