Iowa medical forfeits

[WPB_lion]

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The number of MFFs in this tournament requires that the MFFs be address affirmatively. The Big Ten Tournament is the second highest profile event in College wrestling and it was treated like a second hand tournament. Not a good look at all for college wrestling and its future. College wrestling should not accept this trending strategy.

The punishment for MFF should be severe enough that nobody would MFF unless it was absolutely necessary. I liked the idea that MFF would cause them to be treated as though they did not place. Winning a National Championship in wrestling has always been a grind and I would guess that virtually every national champion wrestler has some form of injury by the time his hand is raised for the final time. Allowing wrestlers who are capable of wrestling through their injury to cut corners by MFF in the conference championships should not become a strategy that works.

 

[KCLion]

I don;t understand this thinking at all. It does NOT save them from a loss, it is a loss.

So by that point, take Kem for example:

His record going into the tournament was 7-2. He won the first two rounds and then MFF 3 matches (semi-final and then two in placements)

Is his post tourney W/L record 9-2 or 9-5?

 

[86PSUPaul]

Put him at 6. Like Nolf got. Seems fair.

Nolf would have been 1, so 6 was a 5 point drop, Kem would probably not have been 1, so.....

 

[ss7]

Nolf would have been 1, so 6 was a 5 point drop, Kem would probably not have been 1, so.....

Nolf was a 3 seed at NCAAs that year.

Brackets

 

[Cstroke]

Most of these guys are injured, some just dinged up.
They should allow the #1 seed to place the dude who MF out where ever he wants to in the bracket.

 

[johnstownsteel]

So by that point, take Kem for example:

His record going into the tournament was 7-2. He won the first two rounds and then MFF 3 matches (semi-final and then two in placements)

Is his post tourney W/L record 9-2 or 9-5?

9-2. Unless I’ve always had it wrong.

 

[KCLion]

9-2. Unless I’ve always had it wrong.

I agree - so mff is not really a loss and that’s the point I was trying to make as well.

 

[jmadden1998]

Most of these guys are injured, some just dinged up.
They should allow the #1 seed to place the dude who MF out where ever he wants to in the bracket.

So let’s say Gable makes Cass the 33 seed. Cass wrestles the 32 seed right away. Most likely a fall. Then Cass gets Gable and loses. Bounces to consi’s and racks up bonus points against the lower seeded losers and wrestles back to AA status. Are you good with that?

 

[johnstownsteel]

So let’s say Gable makes Cass the 33 seed. Cass wrestles the 32 seed right away. Most likely a fall. Then Cass gets Gable and loses. Bounces to consi’s and racks up bonus points against the lower seeded losers and wrestles back to AA status. Are you good with that?

If you’d substitute Cass for Kerk I might be. Lol

 

[Cstroke]

I have no choice in it, I just make the rules but Im not the #1 seed.
and excuses are for wussies.

 

[mcpat]

If you’d substitute Cass for Kerk I might be. Lol

It’s funny but I was looking earlier and thinking the 8-9 seed might be better than 4-5 for Kerk because of bonus. Face Gable a match earlier… maybe pick up 2 bonus point wins instead of one on the backside, etc.

But the matches are, of course, tougher in the championship bracket. The 5 seed wrestles the 12 seed in the second round while the while 9 faces 8. Less room for error and lower chance of bonus in the second round.

And then there’s the part where I’m sure Kerk and his coaches are planning not to lose regardless.

 

[johnstownsteel]

It’s funny but I was looking earlier and thinking the 8-9 seed might be better than 4-5 for Kerk because of bonus. Face Gable a match earlier… maybe pick up 2 bonus point wins instead of one on the backside, etc.

But the matches are, of course, tougher in the championship bracket. The 5 seed wrestles the 12 seed in the second round while the while 9 faces 8. Less room for error and lower chance of bonus in the second round.

And then there’s the part where I’m sure Kerk and his coaches are planning not to lose regardless.

8 or 9 seed isn’t happening. Whatever seed he does get though Kerk, Cael and staff will be ball to the walls trying to put together a plan to beat everyone put in front of em including Gable. That’s what we do …. Lol

 

[tullfan68]

So by that point, take Kem for example:

His record going into the tournament was 7-2. He won the first two rounds and then MFF 3 matches (semi-final and then two in placements)

Is his post tourney W/L record 9-2 or 9-5?

they dont count med ff as a loss and dont know why??if you dont wrestle its a loss!

 

[tullfan68]

So let’s say Gable makes Cass the 33 seed. Cass wrestles the 32 seed right away. Most likely a fall. Then Cass gets Gable and loses. Bounces to consi’s and racks up bonus points against the lower seeded losers and wrestles back to AA status. Are you good with that?

lol so if he is really hurt maybe he gets beat early!!

 

[mcpat]

Crazy season from an integrity point of view. 0:01 Default Matches. Dual meets where the team sent no one out at the weight but then collected a 0:01 Default win. Wrestlers winning by MFF and then losing by MFF without wrestling in between. Healthy wrestlers ducking in duals.

I think of all that and then I remember Greg Kerkvliet, busted nose bleeding pints, refusing to not finish the match.

 

[McScoreley]

So let’s say Gable makes Cass the 33 seed. Cass wrestles the 32 seed right away. Most likely a fall. Then Cass gets Gable and loses. Bounces to consi’s and racks up bonus points against the lower seeded losers and wrestles back to AA status. Are you good with that?

Assuming Kerk moves up to 3 in your scenario. Cass is facing the loser of Hendrickson/Parris in the blood round from the 33 seed.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

Let me bring it down a notch or two for you.
1. If you think Iowa MFF for reasons of manipulation, what were the benefits gained and who gained from the manipulation?
2. Since you are carrying on that the MFF were not legitimate then yes you are stating they weren't for health reasons. Just because you do not understand what you are doing or saying does not mean you did not convey that message.
3. I believe clueless statements are something you are probably comfortable with.
4. Study strawman argument. Try to use it properly the next time.
5. Straightforward enough for you?

Young lady, see a therapist for your Dunning Kruger.

As for number 3, stop projecting.

Are you this much of an ass in person?

 

[nitlion6]

Young lady, see a therapist for your Dunning Kruger.

As for number 3, stop projecting.

Are you this much of an ass in person?

Can be. Only when someone invites the tone, as you did.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

Can be. Only when someone invites the tone, as you did.

If there's any tonal invitations here, it's from you.

You simply can't see that other people have a different perspective and aren't Pollyannaish about high stakes competition and human motivation.

When confronted, you change the question and when confronted for your grammar, resort to intellectual pretenses, because the best defense is a good offense right?

Let me simplify this for you.

There's at least four possibilities for each forfeit:

1.) The wrestler is seriously (extent) or critically (location, nature) injured, and will likely be impaired in the match or injured further. This is inarguably legit.

2.) The wrestler has a mild injury, and is pulled out of an "abundance of caution". There was a time you were expected to do terrible things to yourself and show up, hurt and exhausted. I'd rather a culture in wrestling that doesn't treat athletes as disposable fodder-but I recognize this is a huge grey area that lends itself to "health cowardice".

3.) The wrestler has a mild injury and the coaching staff decides they don't need to go to the Nationals with the doubt of serious throttling by a Lee or Steveson-they aren't going to die on that hill.

4.) The coaching staff just decided "no mas", we have no realistic shot at the team title anyway.

If you think this is all black and white, and people might don't ulterior motives, biases or sometimes can't even realize they are bending the rules, then you are a pitiable insulated individual who needs to get out deal with world. Everybody is looking for some advantage and the Brands' are notorious for announcing they will do whatever it takes to win.

And win they must. Wrestling in Iowa isn't a sport-it's a religion. Take it from somebody that has relatives there. They are losing the bulk of their lineup next year 133-174 (unless Spencer bumps and Ayala takes 125). A National Title takes the sting out of the Penn State's run over the past decade and gives them something to promise recruits. Otherwise, for Kemmerer and Marinelli it's "seven years of college down the drain".

I actually feel sorry for those AM and MK, especially Kem. Shoulders are terribly fragile things and I suspect he's going to be in a lot of pain in the future.

That's as rudimentary as I can be.

 

[nitlion6]

If there's any tonal invitations here, it's from you.

You simply can't see that other people have a different perspective and aren't Pollyannaish about high stakes competition and human motivation.

When confronted, you change the question and when confronted for your grammar, resort to intellectual pretenses, because the best defense is a good offense right?

Let me simplify this for you.

There's at least four possibilities for each forfeit:

1.) The wrestler is seriously (extent) or critically (location, nature) injured, and will likely be impaired in the match or injured further. This is inarguably legit.

2.) The wrestler has a mild injury, and is pulled out of an "abundance of caution". There was a time you were expected to do terrible things to yourself and show up, hurt and exhausted. I'd rather a culture in wrestling that doesn't treat athletes as disposable fodder-but I recognize this is a huge grey area that lends itself to "health cowardice".

3.) The wrestler has a mild injury and the coaching staff decides they don't need to go to the Nationals with the doubt of serious throttling by a Lee or Steveson-they aren't going to die on that hill.

4.) The coaching staff just decided "no mas", we have no realistic shot at the team title anyway.

If you think this is all black and white, and people might don't ulterior motives, biases or sometimes can't even realize they are bending the rules, then you are a pitiable insulated individual who needs to get out deal with world. Everybody is looking for some advantage and the Brands' are notorious for announcing they will do whatever it takes to win.

And win they must. Wrestling in Iowa isn't a sport-it's a religion. Take it from somebody that has relatives there. They are losing the bulk of their lineup next year 133-174 (unless Spencer bumps and Ayala takes 125). A National Title takes the sting out of the Penn State's run over the past decade and gives them something to promise recruits. Otherwise, for Kemmerer and Marinelli it's "seven years of college down the drain".

I actually feel sorry for those AM and MK, especially Kem. Shoulders are terribly fragile things and I suspect he's going to be in a lot of pain in the future.

That's as rudimentary as I can be.

That was a fairly decent response. However, in each of the 4 examples you offered there wasn't any cheating or bending of any rules.

You and I started our back and forth with your insistence that there was plenty of reason to believe Iowa's MFF run was more likely malfeasance than health related concerns. I simply pointed out that dismissing the health concerns probablility without any knowledge on the subject was silly. You took it from there.

 

[Ja1339]

Aren’t these the knuckleheads that coined the ‘You don’t like tough wrestling’ line?

 

[royboy]

The number of MFFs in this tournament requires that the MFFs be address affirmatively. The Big Ten Tournament is the second highest profile event in College wrestling and it was treated like a second hand tournament. Not a good look at all for college wrestling and its future. College wrestling should not accept this trending strategy.

The punishment for MFF should be severe enough that nobody would MFF unless it was absolutely necessary. I liked the idea that MFF would cause them to be treated as though they did not place. Winning a National Championship in wrestling has always been a grind and I would guess that virtually every national champion wrestler has some form of injury by the time his hand is raised for the final time. Allowing wrestlers who are capable of wrestling through their injury to cut corners by MFF in the conference championships should not become a strategy that works.

Well said, and I agree.

The damage to the B1G tournament by the strategic use of MFFs to prep for the national tournament cheapens the conference tournament. It was silly and strange to see the BTN television coverage not mention the MFFs until the moment of the bout, when it was known hours ahead of time and talked about on boards like this.

IMO, it is a serious enough problem that the Conference Commissioner needs to get involved. I don't think Jim Delany would have liked it.

 

[dunkej01]

 

[nerfstate]

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show me that you are new to wrestling Twitter without telling me that you are new to wrestling Twitter…

 

[raslen007]

Here’s the thing, these guys are FFTING because they want to be healthy for the dance. Now come Detroit and these same guys will be wrestling till their limbs fall off.


Ohh speaking of… did anyone else see TWilson land on his head then weirdly fall down afterward (reminded me of the Blades girl but not near as severe) Anyway, I cant believe they didnt do protocol on him, he had to have been concussed.

I watched that match. He had no idea where he was for a minute or so. Scary to see him fall when he tried to walk. I was also surprised he didn't go into protocol.

 

[AgSurfer]

they dont count med ff as a loss and dont know why??if you dont wrestle its a loss!

I didn’t wrestle this weekend. Did I lose?😁

 

[nitlion6]

I didn’t wrestle this weekend. Did I lose?😁

We're you scheduled to wrestle?

 

[District four]

But Cass was ok to go against Kerk? If he's hurt, and he's qualified, stop wrestling (i.e. MFF to Kerk) and let the fans experience an actual bout at the finals. Instead no one got to see the best wrestler in the country put on a show. If Cass had gotten dinged against Kerk, that's obviously more acceptable. I don't know any specifics, but that's just how this all looks.

I didn't realize that he wrestled Kerk after hilger or just didn't pay attention. You make a good point though if it was hurt against hilger why wrestle Kerk. I think brands just pulled the plug on the whole thing and medical forfeited everyone at that point which is bullshit

 

[LorenzoFan]

they dont count med ff as a loss and dont know why??if you dont wrestle its a loss!

To get a "loss" you must step on the mat. To get a win, you must step on the mat.

 

[RoarLions1]

So by that point, take Kem for example:

His record going into the tournament was 7-2. He won the first two rounds and then MFF 3 matches (semi-final and then two in placements)

Is his post tourney W/L record 9-2 or 9-5?

I see it was answered correctly above (Kemerer's record would be 9-2), plus LorenzoFan's comment just above is an easy way to remember the MFF rule. Here's the language from the rulebook...

"Medical forfeits count as a win for the opponent and do not count as a
loss for the forfeiting wrestler. Even though medical forfeits do not count
as a loss, they must be placed on the wrestler's Individual Season Record
Form in the Trackwrestling system."

 

[KCLion]

I see it was answered correctly above (Kemerer's record would be 9-2), plus LorenzoFan's comment just above is an easy way to remember the MFF rule. Here's the language from the rulebook...

"Medical forfeits count as a win for the opponent and do not count as a
loss for the forfeiting wrestler. Even though medical forfeits do not count
as a loss, they must be placed on the wrestler's Individual Season Record
Form in the Trackwrestling system."

And that is the point I was making as subtlety as I could without being argumentative with the original poster that I quoted that said in fact that MFFs are considered losses.

 

[nitlion6]

For tournaments like the Clarion Open, or Bearcat Open, or whatever Open if a wrestler no longer cares to participate he should be allowed to withdraw without harm. In other words a kid wrestlers 2 or 3 matches and he and his coaches feel that's enough go ahead and MFF out with record penalty.

In scoring tournaments like Cliff Keen, Southern Scuffle, Midlands, Conference championships MFFs become a loss.

 

[mcpat]

For tournaments like the Clarion Open, or Bearcat Open, or whatever Open if a wrestler no longer cares to participate he should be allowed to withdraw without harm. In other words a kid wrestlers 2 or 3 matches and he and his coaches feel that's enough go ahead and MFF out with record penalty.

In scoring tournaments like Cliff Keen, Southern Scuffle, Midlands, Conference championships MFFs become a loss.

Why? (Serious question; interested in your take.)

 

[nitlion6]

Why? (Serious question; interested in your take.)

The opens are used mostly for experience gainers or rust removal, nor are they team events. Wrestle 2 or 3 matches and call it a day happens. No harm, no foul.

If people are overly concerned about the impact MFFs have on the integrity of conference championships then if Rivera just wants a break after qualifying he has to be accepting 3 losses on his record. Most likely causing a significant hit on his seed.

Include the same in team scoring events for consistency and to retard ducking.

For clarity, I am OK with doing nothing. It was just a suggestion to address the problem some believe we had this past weekend.

 

[nerfstate]

The opens are used mostly for experience gainers or rust removal, nor are they team events. Wrestle 2 or 3 matches and call it a day happens. No harm, no foul.

If people are overly concerned about the impact MFFs have on the integrity of conference championships then if Rivera just wants a break after qualifying he has to be accepting 3 losses on his record. Most likely causing a significant hit on his seed.

Include the same in team scoring events for consistency and to retard ducking.

For clarity, I am OK with doing nothing. It was just a suggestion to address the problem some believe we had this past weekend.

The problem with the whole "call them losses" thing is--assuming Rivera is healthy--he'll end up a bracket buster. He's a clear top-3 seed, and "punishing" him for MFFs punishes whoever he draws more.

 

[nitlion6]

The problem with the whole "call them losses" thing is--assuming Rivera is healthy--he'll end up a bracket buster. He's a clear top-3 seed, and "punishing" him for MFFs punishes whoever he draws more.

As I said, I am OK doing nothing. However, if it is a problem then the choice is do something or do nothing. Rivera gets bumped 3, 4 or 5 seeding spots because of the record change. So be it. He becomes 6th, 7th or 8th seed.. Number 1, 2 or 3 have a tougher QF match, but Rivera has an even more difficult QF.

 

[nerfstate]

As I said, I am OK doing nothing. However, if it is a problem then the choice is do something or do nothing. Rivera gets bumped 3, 4 or 5 seeding spots because of the record change. So be it. He becomes 6th, 7th or 8th seed.. Number 1, 2 or 3 have a tougher QF match, but Rivera has an even more difficult QF.

Yeah--I dunno if this is a fully solvable problem. Willie is advocating for simply disqualifying anyone who doesn't complete the tourney. It sounds extreme, but it may be the only way to avoid this situation. Instead, we'd probably have more truly hobbled guys risking further injury to keep their dreams alive.

 

[nitlion6]

Yeah--I dunno if this is a fully solvable problem. Willie is advocating for simply disqualifying anyone who doesn't complete the tourney. It sounds extreme, but it may be the only way to avoid this situation. Instead, we'd probably have more truly hobbled guys risking further injury to keep their dreams alive.

The only difference between my suggestion and Willie's is Willie's requires the MFF wrestler to take the mat for a second.

 

[nerfstate]

The only difference between my suggestion and Willie's is Willie's requires the MFF wrestler to take the mat for a second.

I think he’d advocate for disqualifying anyone who defaults too.

 

[nitlion6]

I think he’d advocate for disqualifying anyone who defaults too.

That would be side stepping severe to get to stupid as quickly as possible.