Very good and so now Penn State can control all the best incoming wrestlers so makes sense they should win right.
Its not all recruiting!
- Thread starter Ian
- Start date
Recruiting is part of coaching. Trying to say he can recruit and not coach makes no sense. They mean, he can recruit but not teach. Let them believe it if it helps them feel better. Every PSU wrestler would tell you otherwise. But, hey, what do they know?
Recruiting is part of a college coach's job description. It is not the act of coaching. Either way, it doesn't really matter
Yes, you are a sore loser.
Either you are a master of irony or you failed to read or understand post #20 in the thread and my response and the further reply to mine along with everything else in the thread.
Nothing will.
In the top 25 of the D1CW.net rankings since the 2011 recruiting class, 51 #1 ranked wrestlers have had 142 opportunities to wrestle. 13 of those opportunities have ended in national championships, or 9.2%.
Cael and Co.'s #1 recruits claim 18 of those opportunities during that time, and 5 of the champions, or 27.8%.
I'll take Cael and Co.'s recruiting and their coaching.
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It is one weight that shows serious coaching. The quantity matters little. It is an example of top tier coaching involving 2 different athletes.
The choices you offer are cherry picked to validate a point you want to make, but they have nothing to do reality. Penn State wrestling gets terrific recruits. Those recruits in turn get terrific instruction and development. Both, important ingredients if one wants a championship quality program that is built to endure.
Iowa fans (as a collective generalization) have spewed so much unintelligent and hatefull rationalized BS towards Cael Sanderson and what he is accomplishing at Penn State we as a collective don't usually want to play the rationalization games.
Sorry in advance for the long post. My two cents worth (at least back when a popsicle was a dime).
There has been so much about Cael and company and how they do things across many boards. Talking about how good a coach he is or isn’t, ok. What a good recruiter he is. Same.We can agree to disagree. You don't like his hair? Oh well. Etc, etc. They are fair game because of their position. They don't mind if people make fun of them.
What is really disappointing to me is that people are willing to slander others and gossip with zero real knowledge. That happens here as well as other places by the way. However, one that bothered me was this (though I don't believe it was said maliciously). Here is a recent quote from HR:
“I don't think there is cheating going on. I do think there is negative recruiting and/or anything up to the line that can be done is. In many ways, I think Brands are naive and/or too ethical for their own good.
I don't think Cael is doing NCAA infractions. Will he dance on the edge to win? Sure.”
The implication is obvious. The Brands are so ethical they are losing because of it. Cael, Casey, and Cody are unethical in how they do things and while they haven’t transgressed the letter of the law (at least that anyone has found), it is highly questionable.
What standards are being referred to? Where is all the evidence of this? I’ve been watching all of them for years (much closer than other fan bases) and have never heard a whisper of this…..but they know?
I see a lot of opinion (slander and gossip to call it what it really is), but for every person that says something about Cael, you have someone saying something about Brands (which people need to realize that sometimes even if you are right…whether Brands or Cael…., it is still gossip….meant to hurt and degrade if done in this forum). Not saying you can’t have fun with someone and joke, especially if you are on your own forum, but I think we all know the difference...or should.
Is Cael perfect? Is Brands? Absolutely not. No one is. To use a Philly sports analogy, I guess Dick Vermeil was a real scumball because he gave Laurence Phillips chance after chance when it seemed “obvious” to everyone else he shouldn’t. He was just trying to get ahead and was willing to compromise his so-called principles to do it. Right? If you believe that, you don’t know Dick Vermeil. But some do believe that.
Everything is not always what it seems. While I can easily ignore things or just not go to other boards when it is negative, it’s sad that there is so much negativity and thoughtlessness to where so many people on all sides have to use ignore or just stop frequenting other boards for the actual wrestling talk and real humor.
There has been so much about Cael and company and how they do things across many boards. Talking about how good a coach he is or isn’t, ok. What a good recruiter he is. Same.We can agree to disagree. You don't like his hair? Oh well. Etc, etc. They are fair game because of their position. They don't mind if people make fun of them.
What is really disappointing to me is that people are willing to slander others and gossip with zero real knowledge. That happens here as well as other places by the way. However, one that bothered me was this (though I don't believe it was said maliciously). Here is a recent quote from HR:
“I don't think there is cheating going on. I do think there is negative recruiting and/or anything up to the line that can be done is. In many ways, I think Brands are naive and/or too ethical for their own good.
I don't think Cael is doing NCAA infractions. Will he dance on the edge to win? Sure.”
The implication is obvious. The Brands are so ethical they are losing because of it. Cael, Casey, and Cody are unethical in how they do things and while they haven’t transgressed the letter of the law (at least that anyone has found), it is highly questionable.
What standards are being referred to? Where is all the evidence of this? I’ve been watching all of them for years (much closer than other fan bases) and have never heard a whisper of this…..but they know?
I see a lot of opinion (slander and gossip to call it what it really is), but for every person that says something about Cael, you have someone saying something about Brands (which people need to realize that sometimes even if you are right…whether Brands or Cael…., it is still gossip….meant to hurt and degrade if done in this forum). Not saying you can’t have fun with someone and joke, especially if you are on your own forum, but I think we all know the difference...or should.
Is Cael perfect? Is Brands? Absolutely not. No one is. To use a Philly sports analogy, I guess Dick Vermeil was a real scumball because he gave Laurence Phillips chance after chance when it seemed “obvious” to everyone else he shouldn’t. He was just trying to get ahead and was willing to compromise his so-called principles to do it. Right? If you believe that, you don’t know Dick Vermeil. But some do believe that.
Everything is not always what it seems. While I can easily ignore things or just not go to other boards when it is negative, it’s sad that there is so much negativity and thoughtlessness to where so many people on all sides have to use ignore or just stop frequenting other boards for the actual wrestling talk and real humor.
Instead of arguing back and forth I would kindly point our Iowa guests to the latest Flo podcast where they will find their answers. This is an entity that covers the sport full time and although I'm sure some fans would argue is impartial. They absolutely say Cael can coach and in fact say he is the best developer of talent on top of the best recruiter. I'm sorry but no one except fanbases losing to Cael doesn't believe he can"t develop talent. Time to move onto the next straw man argument.
First MLB vs Division 1 wrestling not exactly an apple and apple comparision. If we want to compare a wrestling program and a baseball program, let's stick with division 1 programs. PSU and LSU. LSU baseball, before Skip Bertman, played good baseball. They won 5 SEC championships in the 52 years prior to Skip taking over as the head coach. From 1991 to 2010 they won the College World Series 5 times. They obviously had recruited some serious baseball talent and then coached that talent up.
1. Without Skip as the coach does all that talent go to LSU?
2. With all that talent, without Skip and his staff does LSU learn to playing winning baseball at the level they played?
Great talent without great coaching can succeed sometimes. Great talent with great coaching succeeds frequently.
Great coaches with mediocre talent will succeed sometimes. Great coaches with great talent will succeed frequently.
Skip Bertman was a pretty damn good college baseball coach. Only an idiot would argue Cael isn't a great coach.
Cael and Co. are GREAT at identifying which talent to go after and developing it.
Not trying to be an ass here, but "almost always beat Iowa in Duals" comment is not accurate. You may want to look at Gables Dual meet records from the 80's and 90's
Personally I don't know why we even care what posters from Iowa, OSU, tOSU or others think about our staffs ability to recruit and coach. The results of their success in recruiting and coaching are transparent for all to see; if they don't see it who cares?!? We will continue to thoroughly enjoy the success and dominance they bring to the mat each year. The Penn State coaching staff is the gold standard; if others want to win, you better pay attention!
What I said was pretty accurate:
86-87: W 27-15
87-88: W 19-18
88-89: W 18-16
89-90: L
90-91: T 19-19
Those W's are Penn State ones. One loss in the stretch that I referenced. You can look it up at our website:
www.pennstatewrestlingclub.org
Welcome to the Board!
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But CP nailed it - they've now turned to the NLWC not creating any World and Olympic champs (ignoring Varner).
Give it some time haters. Cael is moving to phase III now.
Those 2 things are never mutually exclusive. You get the best wrestlers with the best coaches. I can't become a HC at Iowa or PSU tomorrow and continue to pull in talent.
Well, other schools are constrained by the 9.9 scholarship limit that doesn't seem to affect Penn State or Ohio St. 2017 rosters top ten recruits:
Penn State: 1,3,3,4,5,5,6,7,10
Oh St:............1,1,4,6,7,8,10
AZ St:.............1,1,3,9
IA:....................2,2,8,9
Okie St:...........1,7,9
Historically top ten recruits have gotten full rides. This is no longer the case at the top two schools.
Jammenz, my buddy pointed me to your posts on that other board and I must say, you are looking really ridiculous with your arguments on how Cael is only a recruiter.
Not to mention hateful.
Good luck to your team in years to come with your superior coaching staffs.
The "Bo Nickal is not that great because he lost to Andy McCulley" theme seems to have slackened a bit
Are Iowans inadvertently painting themselves into a corner with all this nonsense?
If SLee doesn't win 4 titles, coming in as a world champ & all, what will that mean? Especially being a lightweight.
There is a massive amount of pressure on that young man....
What about Warner? Him too I guess, I mean put him down for at least 3 titles - right? Or, apparently it'll be a huge fail by tnt
That sounds like a "you" problem. Don't take it out on us if nobody of consequence wants to wrestle for your school.
The current Iowa wrestling staff (11 years in place I believe) has ever only recruited one wrestler to Iowa who won multiple championships, McDonough.
I suppose it is possible, but to believe they managed to get two in one recruiting class is using history as a future predictor not very likely.
TnT definitely recruited Metcalf who was a 3 time finalist and 2 time champ. No reason to exaggerate to make your point. TnT have done an excellent job at Iowa, just no where good as Gable did, but then neither has anyone else, until Cael, that is.
Facts and figures are neither argumentative nor hateful. 12 years of AA's
Hvy
PSU... 6,6,5 from #5 Nevills, #22 Lawson
MN......1,1,1,1,2,7,7,8 From King Cole, #49 Nelson, #22 Kroells
197
PSU.....1,1,2,3,7,8 from #1 McIntosh, #12 Wright, #10 Varner
MN........2,3,3,4,5,5,7,7,8 #78 Schiller, #171 B Pfarr, #11 S Yohn,
125:
Cael: 1,2,2,3,6,8 Thank you #3 Mega (1,2,2,3), unheralded Conaway was 6,8
MN:...2,2,3,5,5,6,7 are #15 D Ness, #15 Sanders, #60 Lizak, #30 D Thorn
133
Cael: 2,3,5,7 from #3 Gulibon, Long, Slayton, & Fanthorpe
MN....1,2,3,4,4,5,5,6 #15 D Ness, #81 C Dardanes, Reiter, and #30 D Thorn
141
Cael 1,3,5,8 from #3 Zain, #13 Gallick, #68 Molinaro
MN...3,5,7,7,8 from #51 Mike Thorn, #20 N Dardanes, Manny Rivera
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Exaggerate? Was Metcalf recruited to Iowa?
My statement as well as my point are accurate.
Fake News Alert: How many errors did Jammen make in his supposed "facts and figures"?
I see one right away without doing any research at all. And it's recent, as in last year.
Cael and Co. are DESTROYING Ryan and company when it comes to development. 2011-16 Top 25 recruits that have come to Penn State AAed 78% of the time and became NC 30.4% of the time. tOSU recruits AAed 53% and became NC 14% of the time.
One other thing regarding your stats. The correlation for HS Rank to %AA/Opportunity for all Top 25 HS wrestlers 2011-16, when including PSU is -.39. The correlation when Penn State is excluded is -0.27. I don't know how much you know about correlations, but the closer that number is to 0, the worse the correlation is. That means PSU is making the correlation look much better.
WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE WEIGHTS? Jammenz is writing from the insane asylum.
The following is what was at the bottom of the same message elsewhere...
"The next five weights are the ones that Penn State has demolished the NCAA's with #3 Zain, #4 Nolf, #1 Taylor, #5 Cenzo, #12 Wright, #5 Ruth, #7 Nickal, and #1 Hall.
Conclusion: Casey Cunningham coaches the middle weights where PSU top recruits have been killing it. We're just fortunate that they haven't had lightweight and heavyweight coaches."
Have at it.
I love this new argument: "Well, aside from those 5 national champs....umm, Penn State's other weights aren't very well coached".
And that coming from a guy whose team has 0.
It all makes sense in the asylum
