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Wrestling LIVE THREAD: Penn State vs. Iowa

I wonder the same. HR is convinced it’s a TD; citing the Carter’s loss of a grip on Kem’s leg. They posted a ref training video that says freestyle requires leg to be laced but folkstyle only requires leg to be trapped. I see their point on the loss of Carter’s grip on Kem’s leg. I still don’t see any trapping of the leg regardless.

FWIW; PSU wins on criteria (match points) even if that was ruled a TD.
They’re working on video proof of Warner’s next level ride right now. Knowledgeable guys have seen it before. You stick your leg through the guys arms, stick your arm through his legs, roll over, wiggle back and forth while looking scared & confused and the other guy is helpless as you rack up riding time. Pewterbirdgripper used this move to take 4th place in his 6th grade gym class. It’s tried & true. It’s a pre 2011 ride, so we wouldn’t know about it. Angel spotted it right away
 
Think Hall pinned a pretty good guy from Missouri with this move his true freshman year at NCAAs. My memory isn’t the best though.
Soph year. Lewis maybe

Daniel Lewis in 2018, Mark's Sophomore year. For my money the best all-around match Mark wrestled. Didn't get the pin on the merkle, just the backs, pinned him on a hipover on a Lewis shot later in the 3rd.
 
I have some easy questions. Just looking for some answers.
1). Didn’t Penn State wrestle Iowa at their place last year? Why wasn’t this match at home?
2). The Iowa 165, Marinelli, appeared to be exhibiting roid rage. Do they test wrestlers for drugs?
3). The two midgets that coach Iowa showed no mat side discipline or composure. Do their antics ever get them in trouble?
I thought it was a great match where every weight was close. The better team won.
Your "easy questions" are exactly the kind of dreck that has been posted daily on HR about PSU for years, that we mock for good reason.

Do better, or don't do at all.
 
Yes, you see this at youth wrestling tournaments a lot, but never amongst the better high school and college wrestlers because it rarely works on better wrestlers that have any sense of where they're at and what they're doing. Look, the Merkle is legal and considered a takedown, but I still call it junk wrestling and usually the beneficiary just got lucky.

Don't disagree with you that you rarely see it, but it was used regularly by a very well-known PA wrestler (can't remember which one - there are a lot of them. Think it was someone from 70s.). Anyway, they used it frequently at the higher levels - in fact, the move may even be named after them.... I can't remember what it's called - it's something-roll... think it might be the wrestler's last name followed by "roll".
 
Conveniently, he therefore didn’t have to rule on whether it was or wasn’t a TD since time expired.

There’s a thread on HR about it with a YouTube ref seminar where they say in folkstyke, leg only has to be trapped. I don’t think it was even trapped.

It wasn't trapped - in fact, Carter had Kem's leg trapped as his leg and foot were DC directly across, and over, Kem's lower leg trapping it against mat.
 
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There are aspects of college wrestling that can be improved. I won't say there's a lot, but some. In this post, I'm asking for opinions on two items while giving my own opinion.

1) A referee should never review there own calls. It probably comes down to $$'s, but a third-party review is in the rule book, and is a far better look. Even when correct, an unchanged review by the same official making a call will always be suspect. Conflict of interest prevent folks from auditing/reviewing their own work in other sports. Why not in college wrestling?

2) The second referee needs to be more active and involved in the bouts. Even a casual fan can see when guys work together well. In too many cases having the second ref is of little to no value. Other than training, not sure I have an answer, but a passive 2nd ref is worthless.
 
I don't know the spelling, but was/is it a churella roll?

Don't believe so - pretty sure Churella Roll is off a simple gut-wrench - diving across bottom wrestler toward far shoulder and rolling them over you and getting back exposure by controlling them at waist and maybe turking near leg.
 
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There are aspects of college wrestling that can be improved. I won't say there's a lot, but some. In this post, I'm asking for opinions on two items while giving my own opinion.

1) A referee should never review there own calls. It probably comes down to $$'s, but a third-party review is in the rule book, and is a far better look. Even when correct, an unchanged review by the same official making a call will always be suspect. Conflict of interest prevent folks from auditing/reviewing their own work in other sports. Why not in college wrestling?

2) The second referee needs to be more active and involved in the bouts. Even a casual fan can see when guys work together well. In too many cases having the second ref is of little to no value. Other than training, not sure I have an answer, but a passive 2nd ref is worthless.

Agree on 1st point. Maybe limit it to 3rd party review just for coaches challenges (not official initiated).

I would really only want it for conference and NCAA tournament, though. Human error is a part of sports and not sure it is worth having someone on standby for duals.
 
There are aspects of college wrestling that can be improved. I won't say there's a lot, but some. In this post, I'm asking for opinions on two items while giving my own opinion.

1) A referee should never review there own calls. It probably comes down to $$'s, but a third-party review is in the rule book, and is a far better look. Even when correct, an unchanged review by the same official making a call will always be suspect. Conflict of interest prevent folks from auditing/reviewing their own work in other sports. Why not in college wrestling?

2) The second referee needs to be more active and involved in the bouts. Even a casual fan can see when guys work together well. In too many cases having the second ref is of little to no value. Other than training, not sure I have an answer, but a passive 2nd ref is worthless.
Correct on both counts.

I'll never understand why wrestling has spectators for 2nd refs. This is like having only the home plate umpire make every call in a baseball game.
 
There are aspects of college wrestling that can be improved. I won't say there's a lot, but some. In this post, I'm asking for opinions on two items while giving my own opinion.

1) A referee should never review there own calls. It probably comes down to $$'s, but a third-party review is in the rule book, and is a far better look. Even when correct, an unchanged review by the same official making a call will always be suspect. Conflict of interest prevent folks from auditing/reviewing their own work in other sports. Why not in college wrestling?

2) The second referee needs to be more active and involved in the bouts. Even a casual fan can see when guys work together well. In too many cases having the second ref is of little to no value. Other than training, not sure I have an answer, but a passive 2nd ref is worthless.
One way of getting around a large sum of $$$ is to have a central review for all matches. Let's say, one reviewer per conference. Of course, the people would be present in the arena for conference and NCAA since that's the only action.

Having second ref make calls on reviews is another option. Head ref goes away from table.
 
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Except for the part where the ref said “After review, the clock had run out. No Takedown.”

Thus the reason I’m asking about the rule as I thought it required leg lace too.
Let me understand, you are surprised Angel Rivera is freaking incorrect about an obvious situation/call?
 
Correct on both counts.

I'll never understand why wrestling has spectators for 2nd refs. This is like having only the home plate umpire make every call in a baseball game.
I have done that in little league games.
Just saying it can be done.
 
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No matter what any of us think, Rivera called the two and would have let it stand if time hadn’t run out. Right or wrong, that was the difference.
Yes you are correct. However, the prime take on HR (or JS last night) is/was that Rivera screwed Kem by not calling the 2 sooner like in immediately when Kem secured the TD. The repeated truth is Kem never, ever had 2 there so Kem was not screwed by Angel.. The clock kept Angel from doing his perverbial norm, getting shit wrong and screwing Carter.
 
Here's a video of the roll:
I'm not someone who gets into scraps, and I'm way too old anyway. But that Merkle position looks like a really good defensive position if you find yourself in an bad situation and manage to get behind the other person. You could control his body movement pretty well and his only option to strike you is with his elbows. Any MMA participants here care to comment?
 
Boy Iowa surely does not like tough wrestling. There are plenty of legal wrestling moves, that can be painful. What other moves would you like to make illegal? If you can’t take the pain, all you have to do is roll over, but what does Iowa do - start screaming to have the ref bail them out, to avoid back points. Unfortunately, it worked for Desanto. Fortunately it did not work for Warnerov. The only positive thing Rivera did that entire match, was not bail out Warnerov.
you can say the same thing about any illegal move. if you can't handle the pressure of a full nelson, roll over. your knee taken out? roll over. a kimura? roll over.

it's not about pain. it's about danger. whenever you see somebody's back get bowed backwards like that in neutral scrambles, the officials stop it, for good reason. the back isn't supposed to bend like that. i understand that's my opinion and many won't share it, but that's just what i think.
 
you can say the same thing about any illegal move. if you can't handle the pressure of a full nelson, roll over. your knee taken out? roll over. a kimura? roll over.

it's not about pain. it's about danger. whenever you see somebody's back get bowed backwards like that in neutral scrambles, the officials stop it, for good reason. the back isn't supposed to bend like that. i understand that's my opinion and many won't share it, but that's just what i think.
Would you feel the same if it were a kid wearing a black singlet over one wearing a blue one with the white belt getting cranked with a move that is within the rules and the ref stops it because you think it's pd?
 
Yes you are correct. However, the prime take on HR (or JS last night) is/was that Rivera screwed Kem by not calling the 2 sooner like in immediately when Kem secured the TD. The repeated truth is Kem never, ever had 2 there so Kem was not screwed by Angel.. The clock kept Angel from doing his perverbial norm, getting shit wrong and screwing Carter.
the focus on "lacing the leg" is misguided. that is not how it is called. all you need is to be behind the arms. the only reason there is every focus on the leg being inside on the first place is to make clear that, as the bottom man, simply stepping over that inside leg is not enough to prevent control (like it is in freestyle for example). as soon as carter lost his lock, was extended, and kem was behind the arms, it was two. fwiw, askren, who is as knowledgeable about these kind of scramble positions as anybody, is also saying it was 2.

for an example, look at rby-desanto pt. 2, first takedown:



desanto never hooks his leg or anything. all he has is he's behind the near arm on the side headlock and puts weight on rby's hands. 2 is given.

last i'll say. i understand this is a sysyphean task. you guys win either way on criteria.
 
Would you feel the same if it were a kid wearing a black singlet over one wearing a blue one with the white belt getting cranked with a move that is within the rules and the ref stops it because you think it's pd?
in the moment? no because i'm human. but i would celebrate the move becoming illegal going forward. i've held this opinion for years. it's illegal in high school for a reason.
 
you can say the same thing about any illegal move. if you can't handle the pressure of a full nelson, roll over. your knee taken out? roll over. a kimura? roll over.

it's not about pain. it's about danger. whenever you see somebody's back get bowed backwards like that in neutral scrambles, the officials stop it, for good reason. the back isn't supposed to bend like that. i understand that's my opinion and many won't share it, but that's just what i think.
don't necessarily disagree. However there are a lot of moves that go against joints or the bodies natural movement. But that is why one ends up going with the 'flow' if the can't defend. It is interesting that it hasn't been called out yet... guess there hasn't been a good injury stat report
 
in the moment? no because i'm human. but i would celebrate the move becoming illegal going forward. i've held this opinion for years. it's illegal in high school for a reason.
And have you expressed your displeasure for them here previously?
 
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the focus on "lacing the leg" is misguided. that is not how it is called. all you need is to be behind the arms. the only reason there is every focus on the leg being inside on the first place is to make clear that, as the bottom man, simply stepping over that inside leg is not enough to prevent control (like it is in freestyle for example). as soon as carter lost his lock, was extended, and kem was behind the arms, it was two. fwiw, askren, who is as knowledgeable about these kind of scramble positions as anybody, is also saying it was 2.

for an example, look at rby-desanto pt. 2, first takedown:



desanto never hooks his leg or anything. all he has is he's behind the near arm on the side headlock and puts weight on rby's hands. 2 is given.

last i'll say. i understand this is a sysyphean task. you guys win either way on criteria.

The leg is not "Merkel'ed" if it is not laced - so saying he has a Merkel simply is not true.
 
And have you expressed your displeasure for them here previously?
not sure if i have here. i definitely have on some board previously. and if my dad posted here, he could tell you how i say "god, i hate that move" every time i see it. you'll just have to take my word for it lol.
 
not sure if i have here. i definitely have on some board previously. and if my dad posted here, he could tell you how i say "god, i hate that move" every time i see it. you'll just have to take my word for it lol.
Ok, I’ll take your word for it. But you obviously see why eyebrows would raise if you decide the day after a guy on your team was subject to a move, suddenly you don’t like torquing on joints.
There have been plenty of Lee arm bars, literally dozens every year, where we could have had that discussion. Some with opponents yelling in pain while an insane man insisting he just doesn’t like tough wrestling.
 
are you saying that the ref in the video i linked got it wrong? because it wasn't "laced" there either.

I'm saying the claim that the leg was "Merkel'ed" (which always preceed the claim enabling a TD) is false. Kem does not have the leg Merkel'ed. BTW, Kem still had a deep whizzer on Carter and Carter has a reverse hold of Kem's leg, so the situations you claim analogous, are not.
 
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Think Hall pinned a pretty good guy from Missouri with this move his true freshman year at NCAAs. My memory isn’t the best though.
Soph year. Lewis maybe
The famous name is the Schalles when heisting over.
An ankle lace is needed for the Schalles but is not needed for a TD and control. You have inside to inside leg and both arms behind the shoulders you have control.
The Merkle position is sometimes happenstance as it was with Kemerer but is a direct result of a perfectly executed throw by or duck under throw by.
If a defensive wrestler is able to remove the leg, the offensive wrestler is still behind the shoulders and in control.
 
I'm saying the claim that the leg was "Merkel'ed" (which always preceed the claim enabling a TD) is false. Kem does not have the leg Merkel'ed. BTW, Starocci still had a deep whizzer on Kem, so the situations you claim analogous, are not.
There was no whizzer, CJ. CStar had an inside hook on Kem’s inside leg from the underside. That’s what was keeping him from giving up the TD, at least until Kem broke it.
Regardless, I remain like others, dissatisfied with Rivera. Not knowing a Winn Dixie by this time….and reviewing a position where the previous offensive wrestler is now fully on his back, with neither hand attached to….ANYTHING..arm scissored and legs wrapped by the new offensive wrestler….is a complete mystery. Just because one might say, WTF is Dean doing, doesn’t mean he’s not doing it. Lol.

CStar is arguable I suppose. Deans move was not.
 
Don't disagree with you that you rarely see it, but it was used regularly by a very well-known PA wrestler (can't remember which one - there are a lot of them. Think it was someone from 70s.). Anyway, they used it frequently at the higher levels - in fact, the move may even be named after them.... I can't remember what it's called - it's something-roll... think it might be the wrestler's last name followed by "roll".
Wade Schalles
 
you not following the conversation? i'm saying it should be illegal, not that it is and it wasn't called.
What about head snaps? Someone could get really hurt if their head gets thrown unto the floor. Should they be illegal?
 
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Ok, I’ll take your word for it. But you obviously see why eyebrows would raise if you decide the day after a guy on your team was subject to a move, suddenly you don’t like torquing on joints.
There have been plenty of Lee arm bars, literally dozens every year, where we could have had that discussion. Some with opponents yelling in pain while an insane man insisting he just doesn’t like tough wrestling.
that result last night didn't have a huge impact on my thinking. warner was cooked. and i don't think dean is dirty or anything either.
 
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