If you look at video, Starocci readjusts his grip on Kem's leg with about 5 seconds to go - specifically, he goes below Kem's knee and locks his right arm around Kem's lower left leg elbow-deep with hand/fist coming back towards his body. Starocci then immediately goes head-to-mat to relieve pressure on arm as Kem is pushing straight-down on his shoulder joint. Once Starocci goes head-to-mat with 5 seconds, you can no longer see what is going on with his right arm, shoulder or head as you can't see them as the camera angle is blocked by Starocci's lower-body and Kem's body. But there is no video evidence that anything changes during the last 5 seconds relative to Starocci's right arm. In addition, I just looked at the video again, stopping it each of the last 5 seconds and Kem is still whizzering Carter's right arm all the way through time expiring. This alone means no TD without full Merkel in - IOW, the wrestlers are shoulder-to-shoulder with Kem still whizzering Carter with his left arm as time expires.... Kem is not fully behind Carter's right arm and armpit with a chest wrap. No way is that position a 2T without a full Merkel in.
Wrestling LIVE THREAD: Penn State vs. Iowa
- Thread starter CSauertiegPSU
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If you look at video, Starocci readjusts his grip on Kem's leg with about 5 seconds to go - specifically, he goes below Kem's knee and locks his right arm around Kem's lower left leg elbow-deep with hand/fist coming back towards his body. Starocci then immediately goes head-to-mat to relieve pressure on arm as Kem is pushing straight-down on his shoulder joint. Once Starocci goes head-to-mat with 5 seconds, you can no longer see what is going on with his right arm, shoulder or head as you can't see them as the camera angle is blocked by Starocci's lower-body and Kem's body. But there is no video evidence that anything changes during the last 5 seconds relative to Starocci's right arm. In addition, I just looked at the video again, stopping it each of the last 5 seconds and Kem is still whizzering Carter's right arm all the way through time expiring. This alone means no TD without full Merkel in - IOW, the wrestlers are shoulder-to-shoulder with Kem still whizzering Carter with his left arm as time expires.... Kem is not fully behind Carter's right arm and armpit with a chest wrap. No way is that position a 2T without a full Merkel in.
Funny people can look at video and see two different things. Until you said Ken was whizzering Carter with his left arm, I was going to go with your analysis. Are we talking about the time expiring video review event?
If not it must be another spot,
If yes, then Kems left arm is around Carters neck (Carters left side) and his right arm behind Carters right shoulder/armpit. Before time expires, Carters right hand, which previously was hooked around Kems knee preventing the Merkel, is now free and not grabbing anything. Arm maybe not free entirely.
Anyway. That’ s what I see. It was a tough call. I get it.
Deans was not tough. Not on any level. There is simply no basis for Warner have any control of anything, save perhaps his bladder.
Because making sure the wrestlers are in bounds, which appears to be the only thing the second ref is good for, is ultra-important.
How many season ending injuries have you seen from the bow and arrow?
how many from an arm bar?
I can’t think of one from a bow and arrow, and as long as they continue to monitor that they don’t twist the knee I doubt Ill see any.
how many from an arm bar?
I can’t think of one from a bow and arrow, and as long as they continue to monitor that they don’t twist the knee I doubt Ill see any.
You can see exactly what JS is saying in the video. I don't know the rules that much to comment on when the takedown occurs but your allowing your fandom to influence your decisions. I find JS to be a very respectful poster on this board and brings good insight. You should practice the art of thoughtful debate as you are coming off very poorly.
So who ended up winning the debate? Dipshit or Doofus?
Oh… it ain’t over by a long shot brother. They’re just getting started.
I’m actually sitting here waiting for them to wake…
I hope mcpat asking for a rules explanation several pages ago is happy now. I'm not sure why any one bothers arguing with CJF. But I guess the Iowa guys are getting a kick out of it.
Coffee. Helping people do stupid things faster and with more enthusiasm.
Of course, I drink a pot a day.
Just went back and re-looked at end. As I said, I was focusing on freezing the last 5 seconds - second by second. Starting at 5 seconds you can't see Kem's left arm - I thought it was buried in whizzer, but reading your post I went back and looked at the entire series which started with Carter shooting and gaining a head-inside single with about 25 seconds remaining. As Starocci sucks his leg in Kem goes to a whizzer at the same time Carter hooks Kems lower right leg and ankle with his left leg at which point they both go to mat in a side-by-side position and Kem driving whizzer hard. This position persists for about 6 or 7 seconds and at about the 10 second mark Kem takes his left arm out of whizzer and reaches up-&-over Storroci's left shoulder and headlocks Carter (this is what I didn't see when I was freeze-framing the final 5 seconds - second by second. Again, starting at 5 seconds you can't see Kem's left arm because Carter has gone head-to-mat, I thought it was still buried in whizzer, but you are right - when you go out a bit further, Kem takes the left arm out of whizzer at 10 second mark and headlocks.). However, when Kem headlocks his shoulders go over-top Carter's shoulders and he is clearly not "behind Starocci's shoulders" similar to AD's position vs RBY he referenced, which was the original claim by the OP (i.e., that the AD-RBY position & series he referenced were analogous to this situation, which is complete bullshit, they aren't analogous in the least as to positioning or how they came about. AD had a chest-wrap on RBY and is completely behind RBY's arm and effectively tucked fully behind RBY's armpit and arm.). When Kemerer went to headlock his left shoulder is past Starocci's right shoulder which is the only thing that makes the headlock physically possible - Kem's right shoulder is way past Starocci's right shoulder which again is physically necessary as he's reaching back across his own body to complete headlock. Again, so the original claim that he is behind Carter's shoulders similar to the AD-RBY series he referenced is utter bullshit and completely fabricated. From the high-position Kemerer was in over top Carter's shoulders, not BEHIND them, a full Merkel would be required to award T2 and control.
In regards to Storroci's hold of Kem's lower leg below the knee, Carter clearly has a hold of his leg at 2 second mark and as Carter keeps shifting his leg to left (and over top of Kem's lower-leg), you can no longer see Carter's right arm or determine when he lets go of Kem's lower left leg -- it appears he doesn't let go until horn sounds ending match, then Rivera awards T2 (clearly after clock expired) and then Carter looks up at Rivera like wtf are you talking about, I just let go of him because reg time over.....
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At the 4 second mark, I saw Dean break Warner's lock on his leg. That alone was at least an escape. The whole Winn Dixie thing in those final seconds and the discussion about a 3-count (neutral danger, as Dean control was not established imo) is predicated on Dean holding Warner at <90 degrees. It was close. My opinion is no reversal, but yes to an escape.
I wonder how Cael worded his challenge. It may have impacted what Rivera was looking for.
This leads me back to a comment I've made other places. A ref reviewing his own work is not a good idea. Even when right, there will always be suspicion. $$$'s are surely the reason why a third party review isn't done except in post-season (pretty sure).
You recognizing your short fall is the first step to recovery.
I forbid myself to waste any mental energy on imagining what Bushwick looks like. However, if I were to allow myself to wastefully expend that energy I am certain that is not the image my mind would conjure.
Keep me out of this. You guys need to get a room.
I put him on ignore during football season. Posters arguing with him are wasting their time.
I agree that independent reviews is important. Also the “separation” rule for an escape a
is confusing and Dean never actually separated. But he clearly had control. I’d love to hear Cael’s challenge as well as Angel’s interpretation.
edit: I don’t think the neutral danger rule applies since they weren’t “neutral”.
My reference to neutral danger only applies if the escape was awarded. The announcers actually went down the route of it being a reversal.
The Ref can call a delayed escape in this situation - i.e., ESC has occurred (iow, top wrestler has lost control) but wrestlers have not separated - the Ref can award the delayed ESC if the wrestlers go OB or period ends. So the rule is not ambiguous relative to the awarding of ESC here when Warner clearly lost control - IOW, it should have been awarded at the end of period at the very least. But if you look at video of end of 1st Period, you will see that Warner gives up his control of Dean's leg after Dean Wynn Dixies him and puts him directly on his back starting at the 4 second mark (specifically, Warner lets go of Dean's leg so he can fight to get off his back and fight the Wynn Dixie Dean has just put on him.). Warner remains on his back, at one point going completely flat for the full 4 seconds until the period ends. Had Rivera called the Reversal after Dean controlled him for final 4 seconds after Dean had taken control with Wynn Dixie and actively holding him in an exposed position against his will for the final 4 seconds....., an ESC would not be awarded under delayed ESC rule - a Reversal and backs (i.e., Near Fall exposure points) would be awarded to Dean. But for Angel Rivera to call or award neither in actual time or on review is off the charts RIDICULOUS!
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i'm biased, but i think dipshit seems pretty smart
One of my favorite blackhats. Awesome to have Gilman in the room.
He’s had a great training partner…
Show some self-restraint and keep this kind of garbage off the wrestling forum.
I didn’t last for too long but I did enjoy reading some of the responses to that tweet, LOL.
I came over here to see if there was an official rule clarification on the merkle, not to stir the pot. mcpat, I have to hand it to you for admitting you were wrong. What I see now is the quote from you. Did some Hawk fan say that and/or was it just referring to the NCAA's which indeed was a true statement and not intended to include international results? Thanks for your input.
I don’t recall the specifics, but it was a reaction to Gilman’s We Are tweet. Said it came from someone that could never win it all. When I responded what about the world championship, the response was worlds was missing Uguev.
And based on the referee training video shared on HR, I freely admit it looked like two to me.
And based on the referee training video shared on HR, I freely admit it looked like two to me.
It wouldn't surprise me if some Iowa fan said that concerning all of Gilman's career. Every fan base has its fair share of meatheads. Thanks and, BTW, I don't have you labeled as a meathead.
Concerning the dual, I was very happy with Iowa's performance. The PSU slaughter of UM was quite impressive. Iowa proved they are still a contender. Bigs and Nationals should be fun.
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