National Duals set

[greenmanRD]

Iowa fans were right to be outraged when VT wouldn't grant releases. It's scummy when schools do that.

Iowa is wrong now for holding a grudge on the school for something that happened 10 years ago.

 

[fortheglory94]

Has it been revealed why Ohio State isn't wrestling VT, if Iowa isn't? Did Ryan also back channel lobby to miss VT and perhaps avoid more potentially difficult matchups in that dual ahead of the tournaments? Criteria wise the next in line for VT should have been them.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

I think I'm going to put my pitchfork and torch back in storage on this issue.

My spidey sense tells me that Brands told nwca leadership when they shook hands on this form of the nat duals 2 years ago that under no circumstances would he take a team to Blacksburg. So if they wanted his support they had to agree to that.

Leadership said sure no problem and things moved along. Leadership thought to themselves that a)probability of the two meeting up is slim b) brands would soften and come around because he is a team player.

Further my spidey sense says this was kept between IC and Manheim so guys like cael smith etc didn't know this side deal existed and why even bring up what may never be.

This is just the spidey sense of an annoymous poster. If I'm right I still don't think brands is ok with holding this grudge but I certainly understand him digging his heals in if he made a deal and expected Manheim to hold their end.

I may just be all wet too.....

That could be true for this year, but does nothing to explain last year. Iowa was hosting, so hiding from V-tech was more than not wanting to travel there. The guys not being able to be released is a tough question- I would think as long as a kid pays the college for the year of scholly money he took he should be free to go. It wouldn't be right to take the scholly and never give anything back. Wrestle one year or pay the money back would have made the most fair way to do it.

 

[Gray52]

It is? You better check with the NCAA on that, because last I heard they have no interest in that unless they are guaranteed to make money on it and I don't see that happening any time soon.

Yes... from what I've heard, it's close to happening. But... it is the NCAA we're talking about. They've been known to backtrack.

 

[nitlion6]

Yes... from what I've heard, it's close to happening. But... it is the NCAA we're talking about. They've been known to backtrack.

I have no idea who has told you, but I doubt there is any truth to it.
Even after the wrestling committee gave such a strong recommendation to the NCAA leadership the proposal was throughly rejected.

 

[kingslayer_85]

I see your Spyker Filter is on. Good.

What happened is that Brands recruited a few high-end guys to VT -- including Metcalf, Borschel, and Slaton. They shirted as freshmen. Then Iowa fired Zalesky and hired Brands. Those recruits moved to Iowa City with Brands, but the VT AD refused to grant their release -- which cost them a year of competition and very possibly cost Iowa the 2007 national title.

Brands became Iowa head coach for the 2006-2007 season. And the VT AD has been dead for about 1.5 years.

I actually understand why Brands is pissed at VT , I think a lot of schools provide waivers but VT decided to be petty. Now Brands needs to get past this as his inability to move past this and continuing to carry a grudge reminds me of my wife. Needs to go do the grave site of the former AD and piss on the grave and do some sort of dance and get on with this life. It is really unfortunate that Metcalf and gang lost a year but you need to move on at some point.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Yes... from what I've heard, it's close to happening. But... it is the NCAA we're talking about. They've been known to backtrack.

The National Duals Weekend Tournament was a consistent flop when organized privately - why on earth would the NCAA want to pick up organization of this dud? More people will watch the "NWCA National Duals" under this year's structure than ever watched under the old "Weekend Dual Tournament" structure. Not only that, but the old structure forces the best teams who have already beaten many of the teams in the old structure to have to wrestle lower ranked teams repeatedly the week before the NCAA Tournament.....an absurd thing to do which only proves what you've already proven and why most of the best teams simply skipped it (i.e., it was irrelevant and only put your wrestlers at a disadvantage for the actual NCAA Tournament).

 

[WildTurk]

I dislike the format for the duals. Maybe Tom should just refuse to participate until they change the format to his liking.

 

[a_mshaffer]

I dislike the format for the duals. Maybe Tom should just refuse to participate until they change the format to his liking.

which is the current format as long as his matchup's are to his liking

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I dislike the format for the duals. Maybe Tom should just refuse to participate until they change the format to his liking.

Really? It isn't really all that important that an "also ran" Iowa participate - why should they change the format when it was successful in matching the #1 ranked and undefeated B1G dual team against the #1 ranked and undefeated non-B1G dual team? The format will determine a sole undefeated, outright and undisputed Dual Team Champion - go figure you "dislike the format", LOL.

 

[matter7172]

I actually understand why Brands is pissed at VT , I think a lot of schools provide waivers but VT decided to be petty. Now Brands needs to get past this as his inability to move past this and continuing to carry a grudge reminds me of my wife. Needs to go do the grave site of the former AD and piss on the grave and do some sort of dance and get on with this life. It is really unfortunate that Metcalf and gang lost a year but you need to move on at some point.

Why would Brands be pissed at VT? He was hired to a job - build the program at VT - and left before it was done. Worse than that, he took the best part of the VT with him to Iowa.

It's like you hire a contractor to build a house and just after he gets started, he quits the job and takes the materials you purchased to build someone else a house. Then he doesn't want to reimburse you for the materials he basically stole from you. And he's pissed at you? Sorry. I understand VT being pissed, but they had no obligation to grant the releases.

Anybody that grants releases under such circumstances is basically telling you the coach left on good terms with them. Clearly not the case with Brands and VT. Brands was stomping his feet like a spoiled two-year old who didn't get his way. The fact that the court case was lost means the Iowa/Brands position wasn't credible - which makes sense to anyone with a brain. The wrestlers' position was that when they were recruited, they were promised they would be granted a release at any time. Yeah, that's a conversation every recruit has with a university to which they are "committing".

 

[SRATH]

I dislike the format for the duals. Maybe Tom should just refuse to participate until they change the format to his liking.

That would be fine, except he committed to this format. I don't think it is VT payback.......nothing could be finer than going in there this year and kicking their ass. I have no idea what it could be.

I know I am not going to do a headstand over it.

 

[jammenz]

I dislike the format for the duals. Maybe Tom should just refuse to participate until they change the format to his liking.

Turk, irony goes right over the heads of these folks. Of course, most of them weren't around when Cael killed the National Duals.

 

[Ja1339]

Both...The history is he sent 4 or 5 elite wrestlers to VT for one year cause hey didn't have room. Then the following year they all came to Iowa...VT Coach was pissed...Brands ran from them last year too in this same situation...I WOULD BE EMBARRASSED TO BE AN IOWA FAN OR WRESTLER....

I believe, after Iowa allegedly ducked VT last year, Dresser initially used a vulgar word to describe Iowa. Then instead of the vulgarity, he changed the term to oranges. In response, Brands sent Dresser a basket of oranges with a note that said the only way you'll be getting into Carver is by buying a ticket. There's a lot of info about this online also.

 

[Lion8286]

Turk, irony goes right over the heads of these folks. Of course, most of them weren't around when Cael killed the National Duals.

What's Minnesota wrestling doing this weekend? Heard they're having a pizza party and doing some reminiscing about when Minnesota wrestling was relevant.

 

[Ja1339]

Two years in a row, we have had a great matchup with OSU. I think the series is working great in that sense. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing falls apart after this year, because Brands crapped on the concept. That's unfortunate IMO.

 

[Grass]

I honestly don't care who Iowa wrestles or doesn't wrestle. As a fan I want PSU to wrestle the best team possible so I can get some enjoyment out of it. I mean how fun was it watching the Maryland match on Sunday? The only reason I watched was to see the singlets. If PSU has a chance to wrestle the #5 team and declines to wrestle the #24 team I would be extremely disappointed. I don't believe that you should get to pick and choose your opponents based on being pissed off. The best revenge is going into a hostile environment and kicking the crap out of somebody in front of their fans. Virginia Tech lost 40% of their line up when those kids transferred so I can see why they were bitter. At the end of the day I'm just happy PSU is wrestling OSU on Sunday. It gives me something to look forward to.

 

[kingslayer_85]

Why would Brands be pissed at VT? He was hired to a job - build the program at VT - and left before it was done. Worse than that, he took the best part of the VT with him to Iowa.

It's like you hire a contractor to build a house and just after he gets started, he quits the job and takes the materials you purchased to build someone else a house. Then he doesn't want to reimburse you for the materials he basically stole from you. And he's pissed at you? Sorry. I understand VT being pissed, but they had no obligation to grant the releases.

Anybody that grants releases under such circumstances is basically telling you the coach left on good terms with them. Clearly not the case with Brands and VT. Brands was stomping his feet like a spoiled two-year old who didn't get his way. The fact that the court case was lost means the Iowa/Brands position wasn't credible - which makes sense to anyone with a brain. The wrestlers' position was that when they were recruited, they were promised they would be granted a release at any time. Yeah, that's a conversation every recruit has with a university to which they are "committing".

I would have thought that when VT hired Tom they had to expect that one job he would leave for was Iowa. I'm an idiot and if I was the AD I would have expected brands to leave for that job, probably the only one I could live with. As far as granting the waivers you are right they weren't obligated but in my view just good form to do that. Use you contractor analogy when I was getting my bathroom remodeled I had a quote from the contractor halfway through he came to me and went through a few things that he hadn't anticipated. I wasn't obligated to redo our contract and pay him anything but we split the difference as just the right thing to do. No obligation just the right thing, we probably just have to agree to disagree on our view

 

[El-Jefe]

What's Minnesota wrestling doing this weekend? Heard they're having a pizza party and doing some reminiscing about when Minnesota wrestling was relevant.

Oh come on. They're working very hard to prepare for a 1-11 team missing its best wrestler.

But the question is what Jammen's real team is doing this weekend -- and, whaddaya know, Nebraska is participating.

 

[matter7172]

I would have thought that when VT hired Tom they had to expect that one job he would leave for was Iowa. I'm an idiot and if I was the AD I would have expected brands to leave for that job, probably the only one I could live with. As far as granting the waivers you are right they weren't obligated but in my view just good form to do that. Use you contractor analogy when I was getting my bathroom remodeled I had a quote from the contractor halfway through he came to me and went through a few things that he hadn't anticipated. I wasn't obligated to redo our contract and pay him anything but we split the difference as just the right thing to do. No obligation just the right thing, we probably just have to agree to disagree on our view

Except apparently VT offered to grant the wrestlers a release if they stayed for one year to help transition the program and the wrestlers refused. So not only did Brands break his contract and not build the program, VT offered a reasonable compromise to the wrestlers and it was refused. The wrestlers wanted it all -and had the temerity to start a baseless lawsuit to attempt to get their way. Sorry. Just poor form all around from Brands and his boys. Btw, I wonder who really paid for the lawsuit.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I would have thought that when VT hired Tom they had to expect that one job he would leave for was Iowa. I'm an idiot and if I was the AD I would have expected brands to leave for that job, probably the only one I could live with. As far as granting the waivers you are right they weren't obligated but in my view just good form to do that. Use you contractor analogy when I was getting my bathroom remodeled I had a quote from the contractor halfway through he came to me and went through a few things that he hadn't anticipated. I wasn't obligated to redo our contract and pay him anything but we split the difference as just the right thing to do. No obligation just the right thing, we probably just have to agree to disagree on our view

Really? What would you have said to your bathroom contractor had he come to you halfway through the draw schedule and asked you for more $$$ despite having done zero work whatsoever??? Because that is the more apt comparison to the situation being discussed, not the one you gave....

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Except apparently VT offered to grant the wrestlers a release if they stayed for one year to help transition the program and the wrestlers refused. So not only did Brands break his contract and not build the program, VT offered a reasonable compromise to the wrestlers and it was refused. The wrestlers wanted it all -and had the temerity to start a baseless lawsuit to attempt to get their way. Sorry. Just poor form all around from Brands and his boys. Btw, I wonder who really paid for the lawsuit.

Coe College's Athletic Department...?

 

[kingslayer_85]

Except apparently VT offered to grant the wrestlers a release if they stayed for one year to help transition the program and the wrestlers refused. So not only did Brands break his contract and not build the program, VT offered a reasonable compromise to the wrestlers and it was refused. The wrestlers wanted it all -and had the temerity to start a baseless lawsuit to attempt to get their way. Sorry. Just poor form all around from Brands and his boys. Btw, I wonder who really paid for the lawsuit.

I am going to have to concede, as I have probably said before I never allow ignorance from preventing me to form strong opinions and this is one of those times. You seem more knowledgeable on this and the VT offer does seem like a decent middle ground

 

[GOLDBANGER]

I completely understand the various takes on the release of wrestlers. Most of which, if you're honest skew toward homerism. (Nothing wrong with being a homer, we all are) The point is, there are rules in place which everyone understands. The rules are meant to DISCOURAGE, not encourage transfers by providing a penalty to do so. From most of which I read it appears that people just want to discard the transfer rule. If that were to occur, anarchy would rule. Without the threat of penalty there can be no order, without order there is just chaos. Everyone knows the penalty for transferring, and if not, shame on them.

 

[matter7172]

I am going to have to concede, as I have probably said before I never allow ignorance from preventing me to form strong opinions and this is one of those times. You seem more knowledgeable on this and the VT offer does seem like a decent middle ground

The Washington Post article is really illuminating and told me things I didn't know.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/05/AR2010020503959.html

For example, VT had serious talks about dropping the program after Brands bolted. It was that devastating to what they were trying to build. Just a terrible chapter. What Dresser has been able to do there has really earned my respect.

 

[NoVa Lion]

I completely understand the various takes on the release of wrestlers. Most of which, if you're honest skew toward homerism. (Nothing wrong with being a homer, we all are) The point is, there are rules in place which everyone understands. The rules are meant to DISCOURAGE, not encourage transfers by providing a penalty to do so. From most of which I read it appears that people just want to discard the transfer rule. If that were to occur, anarchy would rule. Without the threat of penalty there can be no order, without order there is just chaos. Everyone knows the penalty for transferring, and if not, shame on them.

Doggone it GOLDBANGER, stop being reasonable.

As always there are two sides to every story and multiple points of view for any situation. Sometimes things just don't and in the Brands/VT situation CAN'T work out to everyone's satisfaction.

 

[mrh1645]

I would have thought that when VT hired Tom they had to expect that one job he would leave for was Iowa. I'm an idiot and if I was the AD I would have expected brands to leave for that job, probably the only one I could live with. As far as granting the waivers you are right they weren't obligated but in my view just good form to do that. Use you contractor analogy when I was getting my bathroom remodeled I had a quote from the contractor halfway through he came to me and went through a few things that he hadn't anticipated. I wasn't obligated to redo our contract and pay him anything but we split the difference as just the right thing to do. No obligation just the right thing, we probably just have to agree to disagree on our view

One additional aspect of the Brands/VT thing was that after going 16-4, 2nd in ACC in 2004-05, Brands redshirted all of the elite incoming frosh and also one or more of the returning starters (NCAA qualifier Borja, for example). They went 1-16 in 05-06. I would imagine VT and the boosters/fans, who were trying to raise up the program, were not thrilled to throw away a season, especially since they had a couple good seniors in Hoffmann and Faust (both AA'd in 05-06). It certainly seemed like a "suffer with me now to reap the rewards in the future" type of approach. However, after the "suffer with me now" portion, Brands left and took the recruits with him. Not sure how that fits into the contractor analogy, but I can see why VT might not have appreciated it. Some have also said that Brands knew the IA job was going to open up and specifically redshirted the recruits to take with him. Who knows. Anyway, I'm not saying VT should have taken the position they did regarding the waivers, but I can see why VT was angry.

 

[El-Jefe]

Some have also said that Brands knew the IA job was going to open up and specifically redshirted the recruits to take with him.

That's a bunch of Bravo Sierra. Brands might have anticipated the possibility but couldn't have known a year before. Things happen. Remember those people who thought Franklin was on the hot seat this year?

 

[Gray52]

The National Duals Weekend Tournament was a consistent flop when organized privately - why on earth would the NCAA want to pick up organization of this dud? More people will watch the "NWCA National Duals" under this year's structure than ever watched under the old "Weekend Dual Tournament" structure. Not only that, but the old structure forces the best teams who have already beaten many of the teams in the old structure to have to wrestle lower ranked teams repeatedly the week before the NCAA Tournament.....an absurd thing to do which only proves what you've already proven and why most of the best teams simply skipped it (i.e., it was irrelevant and only put your wrestlers at a disadvantage for the actual NCAA Tournament).

I can't provide the why or how. Just passing along information (as i occasionally do when i hear something that I think is more than just rumor). All i know is it was recently discussed, and that the NCAA becoming part of it is a real possibility.

 

[RoarLions1]

The only news here, imo, is the 2-year commitment that was made by all the coaches in attendance at the meeting several years ago. Or at least that's what was reported.

Again, it was only a 2-year project, and here we are...year 2...and it's in a shambles. Seems sticking to the agreement, then meeting again to tweak, or ditch, or modify the National Duals isn't unreasonable.

Not sure what to say as a wrestling fan.

 

[dunkej01]

Take a listen.....

http://www.flowrestling.org/article...-and-virginia-tech-won-t-wrestle#.WKNao1UrLmE

edit: I take that back dont listen.....gives JammenX too much credit for a debate point. After scouring the boards he is the only one to start on each board this BS about Cael in response to the tweet. P4P #1 Troll

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

The only news here, imo, is the 2-year commitment that was made by all the coaches in attendance at the meeting several years ago. Or at least that's what was reported.

Again, it was only a 2-year project, and here we are...year 2...and it's in a shambles. Seems sticking to the agreement, then meeting again to tweak, or ditch, or modify the National Duals isn't unreasonable.

Not sure what to say as a wrestling fan.

Giving up "control" is one of the reasons I don't see the NCAA taking over. If the NWCA ceded authority to the NCAA, the coaches would not have any right of refusal...IOW, if Iowa got matched up with VaTech via an NCAA Administered event, they either wrestle or forfeit, no?

 

[RoarLions1]

Giving up "control" is one of the reasons I don't see the NCAA taking over. If the NWCA ceded authority to the NCAA, the coaches would not have any right of refusal...IOW, if Iowa got matched up with VaTech via an NCAA Administered event, they either wrestle or forfeit, no?

My post was referring to the NWCA-sponsored event. No mention of the NCAA...

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

My post was referring to the NWCA-sponsored event. No mention of the NCAA...

Yea, I got that....I'm saying coaches will never cede authority to NCAA, they would lose control of the event.

 

[IrishinGA]

That could be true for this year, but does nothing to explain last year. Iowa was hosting, so hiding from V-tech was more than not wanting to travel there. The guys not being able to be released is a tough question- I would think as long as a kid pays the college for the year of scholly money he took he should be free to go. It wouldn't be right to take the scholly and never give anything back. Wrestle one year or pay the money back would have made the most fair way to do it.

I think you really need to look at the facts from last year.

In determining matchups for the 2016 National Duals Championship Series, the NWCA used the rankings from the USA Today/NWCA Division I Coaches Poll for Feb. 15, 2016. Penn State and Iowa took the top two spots in the rankings, with perfect records of 15-0 and 16-0, respectively. Oklahoma State was ranked third, with a 12-2 record. NC State was No. 4 with a 22-1 mark, followed by 15-2 Virginia Tech being ranked fifth (despite the outcome of their dual meet last Friday).

Live blogger Britt Malinsky -- known on wrestling message boards as SetonHallPirate on TheMat.com forum -- posted this message on that website's discussion group: "There wasn't a vote, but there certainly was consensus. The vote was taken by the coaches on the NWCA/USA Today Coaches' Poll, and that vote had North Carolina State TWELVE POINTS ahead of Virginia Tech. (for those wondering, each coach votes 1-25, 25 points for first, 24 for second, 23 for third, and so on down to 1 for 25th) ..."

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/15959

 

[Abro1975]

What stinks is that you can't watch all the matches thru one online outlet. Flo carries some, Track Wrestling carries others, and ACC (ESPN3) will carry the Va Tech and NC St matches. Just ridiculous..

http://www.nwcaonline.com/news-even...=hootsuite#our-hosts-broadcasting-information

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

What stinks is that you can't watch all the matches thru one online outlet. Flo carries some, Track Wrestling carries others, and ACC (ESPN3) will carry the Va Tech and NC St matches. Just ridiculous..

http://www.nwcaonline.com/news-even...=hootsuite#our-hosts-broadcasting-information

The fact that you can't watch PSU and Okie State wrestle on national TV to determine who wins the National Duals Championship tells you precisely how important, significant this event is......IOW, it's just another dual meet and carries no real significance other than impact on seeding.

 

[SRATH]

Turk, irony goes right over the heads of these folks. Of course, most of them weren't around when Cael killed the National Duals.

Sorry, nobody is missing anything. Iowa just looks bad which is on them. Edinboro wrestles at WVU Friday night, takes a long bus ride home to face Iowa the next day. There are oranges and there is Edinboro.

You aren't mad because Cael killed the old format......he didn't. He was up front and honest about his opinion.....you are just mad because your team is a shell of what once was. The only format your team would qualify for this year is whether you would be in AA or AAA.

 

[nitlion6]

The wrestlers wanted it all -and had the temerity to start a baseless lawsuit to attempt to get their way.

I wonder who really paid for the lawsuit.

The Penn State Slush Fund?
Coe College?

 

[nitlion6]

I dislike the format for the duals. Maybe Tom should just refuse to participate until they change the format to his liking.

Tom was part of putting this together.