Observation: Almost all negative posts blaming/calling out CJF since yesterday
- Thread starter GulfCoastLion
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bwifan
Well-Known Member
I think for me I have to decide if I am good with 2-3 losses for PSU per year and maybe a big 10 championship once every 10 years. JF is a good coach and very good recruiter. He is not a great coach which to me is what you need to get to the National Championship. So rather than over react either way just giving it some time to figure out if I am ok with PSU losing to OSU every year, Michigan about half the time and probably a loss to the Indiana/Purdue's a year. Not sure yet where I fall...
Luke Fickell at Cincinnati could be another Scott Frost at UCF. They both caught lightning in a bottle but can they sustain that magic. Frost couldn't, not after four years.
That for me, with the amount of money he is being paid, would be unacceptable.
I can live with the 1 or 2 losses per season but we need to be in the B1G championship hunt every year with at least winning one every 3 years or so.
You have to go all the way back to week one of this season to find a game Franklin won against an opponent that was favored...
A lot to unpack here. First you're arguing his wins against average teams don't count, but he's mediocre? Sounds like he's doing great if as a mediocre coach he's beating average teams (average is better than mediocre). Second, have you looked at the records of most coaches people here are clamoring for? Their wins are generally against average to below average teams.
Since Chryst seems to get brought up quite a bit in a positive light, and he's never beaten Franklin lets see what his "real" record is.
He's won 60 games at Wisconsin. Breaking down those 60:
11 against ranked opponents (at kickoff)
0 (4 losses) against Ohio State
31 against unranked (average to bad) big ten teams
15 wins against non-p5
3 wins against unranked p5 outside the big 10
So 82% of his wins are bullshit.
Apparently Clawson is a stud so lets look under that hood too.
47 wins 31 losses at Wake:
4 against ranked opponents (Highest being 19th)
43 against unranked opponents
23 against unranked p5
20 against non-p5
Never Beaten Clemson
In his case you just can't add up 91% of his wins.
1-3 against the big ten (losses to unranked wisconsin, indiana and msu)
0-12 against the top 15
And Ruhle at Baylor.
19 wins:
0 wins against ranked teams
5 against non-p5
0-11 vs top 25 teams
Never Beat OU and none of his wins can be counted.
(Only two wins vs top 25 teams while at Temple)
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I'm not sure top-flight guys would be lining up to take the job.
That said, the two home-run hires in terms of buzz would be Fickell and also Matt Campbell at Iowa State.
I've seen Jeff Hafley, the BC head coach mentioned. One person whose name has come up but I would absolutely NOT want to see back is Joe Moorhead.
That's the point. If you're firing Franklin you better have someone top-flight lined the f up.
Do the same for Franklin pre-Penn State and make the case to hire him.
Actually what he (Franklin) did at Vandy was pretty amazing and they haven't had anything close to that since he's left.
The three backbreakers were USC in 2016 and Ohio State in 2017 and 2018. Especially the last two. All in the bag until the late collapses. Win those two Ohio State games, and we're probably not having this conversation.
Beyond that, there's no getting around what the man did at Vandy. Made a winner out of the SEC doormat. And when he left, they promptly reverted to their former selves.
In fact, I mean, it's not like he hasn't done some very good things at Penn State. Three 11-win seasons, a couple big bowl wins, and big-time recruiting success are nothing to sneeze at. That's why he's at the top of USC's list. And also why fans might be advised to be careful what they wish for.
Different scenarios but I believe he was 1-8 (+/- a game or two in the loss column) against ranked teams at Vandy. I also think the entire body of work should be considered, was just making a point how its ridiculous to say only certain games count.
Penn State wasn't replacing a coach that had won a big ten title and 11 games 3x in the previous 6 seasons. We also didn't fire O'Brien to make room for Franklin which is what some are advocating for Clawson.
Nine wins is stellar (for Vandy), but is it a better case than many of the names being mentioned here? What about O'Brien (never a HC)? Kirby Smart (never a HC)? Ryan Day (never a HC)? Lincoln Riley (never a HC)? In CFB, it's often less about what you've done, and more about your potential. You think of someone like Matt Rhule - and it's not what he did at Baylor, it's what he *could* do at Penn State. Same for other coaches at places that don't have the resources, fan base, facilities, etc. that Penn State has. It's why Franklin was hired.
I think a lot of the frustration for fans is that he just lets all these job rumors elsewhere just linger and fester.
If he just came out definitively and said something along the lines of “look, this is my dream job and I’m not going anywhere else” well, I think it would help the team, it would help recruiting and it would help with the level of fan unrest we are seeing right now.
If he just came out definitively and said something along the lines of “look, this is my dream job and I’m not going anywhere else” well, I think it would help the team, it would help recruiting and it would help with the level of fan unrest we are seeing right now.
But you also need to look at the scenarios in which they were hired. Only Smart is a somewhat similar scenario, although Richt had a full decade after his SEC title before getting canned. LSU is similar as well, but Ed O's already been fired soooo...
Day and Riley followed retiring coaches. Meyer and Stoops weren't fired to bring them in. For every Smart at UGA there is a Taggart at FSU/Oregon, Mike Riley (and subsequent hires) at Nebraska, everyone USC hires lately even though they didn't fire Carroll so again not apples to apples, everyone Tennessee has hired since firing Fulmer, Rich Rod and then Hoke at UM (Carr retired and wasn't fired to hire Rich).
I get that; my point is hiring a new HC is a crap shoot and promoting an assistant has worked as many times as it hasn't - as has hiring a coach with zero or very little HC experience (Tom Herman). And Richt had two SEC titles in his first seven years (but was fired a decade after his last one in 2005). All about potential - whatever Franklin does, I think you look for someone who has had success as a HC for at least a few years, fields a solid, fundamentally sound team, and is able to punch above his weight class. Essentially Franklin when he was at Vandy. But, after eight years and seeing the same mistakes over and over; especially an annual loss to a team he should beat, with Penn State's 'on paper' talent, I think it's not above questioning if he's hit his ceiling. He blows through OCs and doesn't appear to adapt 'in game' very well. QB recruiting has been average at best. He has clock management issues and his OLs are less than the sum of their parts (rankings). He does a lot well too. We'll see what happens I guess - all up to Franklin.
I don't blame him for that since we don't know what recruits are told, but since the class is still in-tact and doing well, I have to think he's telling them what they want to hear. Ultimately his obligation is to himself and his family, and the list of coaches who have said they have no interest in a job and then took it is a mile long.
Or has PSU hit its ceiling in the modern age of college football?
My point is, that while his ceiling may not be National Championship, it is very high (much higher than mediocre). The number of coaches with a higher ceiling than Franklin is much smaller than the number of coaches with a ceiling that is lower. We also have a lame duck AD that everyone pans as an idiot who would be leading the search.
Obviously, different discussion if he leaves on his own since obviously you're replacing him with somebody, but I'd be willing to bet his successor is less successful over the next 6 years than James has been over the previous 6 because the number of coaches who have reached that level is low and the hiring manager has a poor reputation.
I'm not sure what else PSU could give Franklin - he has assistants he wants, a top ten salary, and consistent top 15 recruiting classes (including a top five class a few years ago). I also do not know that you can definitely say what the ceiling is for any potential coach at Penn State, especially when assistants like Day, Riley, and Smart inherit or are hired for 'blue blood' programs and make them 'better' (the opposite can happen too - see USC, but they had sanctions not long after Kiffin was hired they struggled to recover from).
Additionally, I do not believe Barbour would be allowed to hire Franklin's replacement on her own. As with CFJ and OB, there would likely be a 'team' of PSU administrators, donors, 'friends' (and a hiring firm) to get a list of candidates together. Still, I'd take your bet.
The money argument is lame. No one is going to feel better about losses because Franklin is making less money
Analogous to the assistants is Jim Tressel who had never coached power five football. The AD must be football knowledgeable and willing to take a risk on a relative unknown. Also, I believe Dabo was an assistant when he was hired at Clemson.
If they had beaten the Gophers in ‘19 then I think that would have been an example of PSU maximizing their success to their ability for a specific season under Franklin. I think that was PSU’s most successful season under Franklin (ranked opponents, close games, closing games even if it was Cain) and they deserved a better ranking than they received.
As far as ceiling, ‘17 had the highest ceiling. It was still a very good year, but I think they could have even made the CFP by beating MSU. Considering the other contenders, that was also their best chance to have success in the CFP.
Not taking anything away from them but in Day and Riley's cases they inherited programs that were already at a higher level than PSU and with the way the CFP has been structed it has led to even more consolidation at the top. I think OSU and OU are more or less exactly where they'd be if Stoops and Urban were still at the helms, both have also been helped out by the timely availability of elite QBs in the portal (kudos to them for getting them) in years that they were weak at the position.
Smart has done a great job.
And 3 weeks ago the naysayers were probably thinking CJF was the best coach in college football.
Lose 2 games and they turn on a dime. And yes, I realize there is almost no excuse for losing to Illinois.
However
From my perspective, CJF is the hardest working coach in college football and recruiting is 90% of what it takes to win. If Justin Fields stayed with us, everything would have turned out totally different the past few years.
We would have won a lot more games and other elite QB's and elite players all around would have followed.
Its a very slippery slope. I think with next years class (especially the QB's) PSU future is very bright.
Be careful what you wish for.
The 2017 team is the most talented of Franklin's and I don't think its close. They should have finished the regular season unbeaten. Blowing the 3 TD lead to OSU should have never happened, and directly lead to the MSU loss (and probably contributed to the 2018 OSU loss as well).
Unfortunately this. Most damaging loss of Franklin's tenure wasn't on the field, it was Fields. Not just in what we lost at QB, but what it ultimately gave OSU.
So looking back at those blown games and Saturday’s inability to stop the run, perhaps, just perhaps, the focus needs to be on a certain defensive coordinator who is really not getting the job done by not properly adjusting his defensive scheme to handle what is in front of him. Still play a 4 man front when faced with a jumbo offensive line set? Lots of blame to go around. Why isn’t Yurchich in the booth. Jack Ham was pleading for Clifford to throw it to the backs in the flat because they were wide open most times. Is Ty Howle incapable of noticing these things in the booth?
Not seeing the forest for the trees. One one is one game. How much worse it could get would be something analogous to what Nebraska is. ~.500 team for the better part of a decade with no end in sight.
MY isn't in the booth because he prefers being on the sideline.
And most everyone was pointing and yelling at the RB's that were wide open in the flat all day so I'm sure that Howle must have seen that from the box. If not we are in BIG trouble. But I do have some serious reservations with regards to Howle.
But I also think that all the "Chunk/Explosive" plays mantra that Franklin uses like a holy prayer have taken hold and Clifford is now looking for the home run ball. I know it led to a big play but the pass to Dotson was horrible and it was only because "JaHands" is so good that it was completed.
Pry is horrible at making in game adjustments.
Speaking of Howle, Tyler Bowen might be available after the abortion of a season the Jags are having.
Stop recruiting freak athletes who can't play football and hire a coach who recruits football players. I will gladly take a 25th ranked recruitment class of hard nosed football players over a 5th ranked group of soft fat kids who can't block, freak athletes who can't make the reads on defense, and super fast guys who drop interceptions.
You know, like the kids we have now.
By lots of regulars, you mean the bloviating experts on here I suppose. I thought the team played poorly on Saturday and Franklin admitted he didn’t have them ready to play. That’s on him of course, but the time to move on posts are misguided.
You mean like the kids playing for Iowa? They we’re getting boat raced by those “soft” PSU players before Clifford got hurt. I guess you thought they looked terrific against Purdue huh?
Yeah. But, a couple years ago I ran into a neighbor who just moved to my neighborhood. He was older, but knew a lot about Penn State football and was an alum. Also big on small government and had a bust of Thomas Jefferson in his foyer. Anyway, this is after the Kentucky bowl game. Said Franklin couldn’t coach and should be gone. Unlikely he does much message boarding, but I get the same reaction from other random alums I run into too. Not a lot of Franklin fans in NoVA. But, I recall a lot of booing Paterno when we played Indiana in Maryland too.
Could that be his ceiling though? Take a team and get them above where they usually are, but not to a title? I know JF won in 2016 but it took a lot of fortune.
I know some guys that haven't liked Franklin from the beginning. I think a big part of the issue is his personality being the complete opposite of Joe's. My wife's cousin's husband told me at a wedding last week that he'd take Ferentz as our coach in a second. I suspect 75% of the haters here would as well, even if that means winning 9 games a season the Ferentz way and going to a NYE bowl every once in a while.
