Like how Gwiz won a title for us while wearing an NC State singlet? (OK, maybe not exactly like that ...)I like the way you're thinking. He's already lost this year, though. what he CAN still do is win four without ever wearing his team's singlet.
POLL - Should Mark Hall's Redshirt Be Pulled
- Thread starter Flying_Tiger
- Start date
I voted yes but I agree with you completely, If Hall was recruited with the redshirt as part of the plan then only Hall has a right to make this decision. If Hall wants to compete and Cael keeps the Redshirt, I trust it is the right decision but imagine the pressure to win it all. I love Cael but sitting Hall and coming in anything other than first would be the first real blemish on his coaching decisions. He could for the first time in my eyes deserve some criticism.....thing is we will never know if the Redshirt was a condition of his recruitment.
No one is panicking, well maybe spyker, just discussing on a message board. I voted to not pull the shirt because I like Geno and Rasheed and want to give them their chance. If I wanted to put some money on it I would want that hedge in place. I did the math, yeah, laugh it up, and I see us winning by 10 points over the pokes. That is too close. You know what happens. Every time I see Bo playing in the pasture during the season I shake my head. If all we care about is National Championships pull the shirt, get him enough bouts to qualify and it's all good.
I would never question Cael's decisions, although there was that one time he wrestled his brother but I digress, it won't be after its too late to change. Since the decision hasn't been made it's fair game to throw our 2 cents out there. Good points on either side but telling someone other opinions aren't wanted around here is kind of , you know?
I would never question Cael's decisions, although there was that one time he wrestled his brother but I digress, it won't be after its too late to change. Since the decision hasn't been made it's fair game to throw our 2 cents out there. Good points on either side but telling someone other opinions aren't wanted around here is kind of , you know?
Regarding the shirt question ... Will the other top teams be stronger or weaker, say, next year? What I mean is, let's ASSUME the decision has been made that there WILL be a redshirt year. Then, is the team going to need Hall's points more this year? Or next year? (based on the expected competition).
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Not entering the fray...just answering the bolded underlined question;
Iowa loses 4 ranked seniors (#1 Gilman, #1 Clark, #7 Meyer, #8 Brooks)
Okie State loses 4 ranked seniors (#3 Collica, #6 Crutchmer, #6 Boyd, #11 Schafer)
Mizzou loses 3 ranked seniors (#7 Manley, #4 Mayes, #1 Cox)
Cornell loses 4 ranked seniors (#17 Grey, #2 Palacia, #5 Realbuto, #1 Dean)
Va Tech loses 3 ranked seniors (#2 Dance, #15 Mastriani, #3 Walz)
On the other hand;
PSU loses 1 ranked senior
tOSU loses 0 starting wrestlers
It looks like a PSU vs tOSU kind of year...depending on how new starters for all the listed teams perform.
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I have to vote no!
Ahhhhh, did tOSU win the nationals last year??? also.....think about Snyders true freshman year. He had trouble underneath with some, and if he had not lost prior to the NCAAs he might have been on the other side of the bracket from Gadson.
Mark has lost to the 19th ranked wrestler and came ohhh so close to losing to the 14th ranked wrestler. Morrelli's only lose has been to Shakur and Shakur's only lose has been a relatively close match to the same kid who almost beat Hall. There are bound to be more 174lbers out there who might be very good at what has caused him issues in his matches this year.
I believe we AA at 174 with out Mark and he will be so much more valuable having had the RS and worked on some things that should be addressed this year and over the summer.
HOWEVER.....IF CAEL PUTS HIM IN THIS YEAR I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY WATCHING HIM.
I recall an interview where Cael explained that at least part of the reason Zain was redshirted his second year was for leadership reasons--to prolong his influence on the Nolf/Nickal/Nevills class. Sure, there were plenty other good/better reasons to shirt Zain that year but I found it interesting that Cael considered that a factor, because I hadn't considered it. Getting back to Hall, I've not heard anyone suggest it but perhaps one factor to consider is prolonging Hall's influence on Lee/Berge/RBY/Wittlake. Hall was quite the leader of his HS team, beyond the mat.
That's a good point. And, not contradicting your good point, Cael deployed Zain's points his true freshman year, and redshirted him in a later year to prolong his leadership. Cael could do the same with Hall.
Let's look at our weight classes
PSU - 125 - Suriano - The way he has looked, he should be a top 3 guy. But, he is a true freshman and you have to be concerned with a true freshman mentally and physically come March. Top 3
OKST - NP - 125 - made the semi's at the scuffle, but was handled easily. Possible top 8 or round of 12
PSU - 133 - Cortez - I know is early, but I was expecting the same level as or better than Conaway. So far, I haven't seen it. I have concern at this weight class.
OKST - 133 - Brock - kid has a lot of upside and dangerous if he get hot. See top 5 from him.
PSU - 141 - Gulibon - Jimmy has struggled since going up in weight and this weight class is loaded. I have concern at this weight class.
OKST - 141 - Heil - Beast. Has some tough kids there. I say NC until someone proves me wrong.
PSU - 149 - Z - Train - NC
OKST - 149 - AC - strong kid. Has a shot at the finals. Definitely a top 5 kid.
PSU - 157 - Nolf - NC
OKST - 157 - JoJo - Definitely top 5. Can he make the finals?
PSU - 165 - Joeseph - All kinds of talent, but a very tough weight class. Should place top 8
OKST - 165 - Rodgers - High scorer. Will get bonus points in the early rounds, but tough weight class. Top 8 or round of 12.
PSU - 174 - Morelli - I think Geno is a safer bet than Shakur here. I see Geno round if 12 and possible top 8.
OKST - 174 - KC - I'd say top 5, but Hall handled him pretty easily. Top 5 to 8.
PSU - 184 - Bo - Should make the finals, but can he beat Dean? Top 2
OKST - 184 - Boyd - He did beat Dean. Very long wrestler. Definitely top 8, possible top 5.
PSU - 197 - Cutch - Matt has looked good at 197. He just needs to stay healthy. If he does, has a chance for top 5.
OKST - 197 - Weigel - possible top 8 or round of 12. Weaker weight class and Preston is tough.
PSU - HWY - NN - Has looked good. Needs to stay healthy. If he does, top 8 with a possible top 5.
OKST - HWY - Schafer - Round of 12.
OKST has a team where a lot of weight classes could place high. To me, it's real tight without Hall. If Hall doesn't go, I think Suriano, Zane, Nolf and Bo need to make the finals. Cutch, Nevills and Cenzo need to place top 8 or better. Anything out of the other 3 is a bonus.
PSU - 125 - Suriano - The way he has looked, he should be a top 3 guy. But, he is a true freshman and you have to be concerned with a true freshman mentally and physically come March. Top 3
OKST - NP - 125 - made the semi's at the scuffle, but was handled easily. Possible top 8 or round of 12
PSU - 133 - Cortez - I know is early, but I was expecting the same level as or better than Conaway. So far, I haven't seen it. I have concern at this weight class.
OKST - 133 - Brock - kid has a lot of upside and dangerous if he get hot. See top 5 from him.
PSU - 141 - Gulibon - Jimmy has struggled since going up in weight and this weight class is loaded. I have concern at this weight class.
OKST - 141 - Heil - Beast. Has some tough kids there. I say NC until someone proves me wrong.
PSU - 149 - Z - Train - NC
OKST - 149 - AC - strong kid. Has a shot at the finals. Definitely a top 5 kid.
PSU - 157 - Nolf - NC
OKST - 157 - JoJo - Definitely top 5. Can he make the finals?
PSU - 165 - Joeseph - All kinds of talent, but a very tough weight class. Should place top 8
OKST - 165 - Rodgers - High scorer. Will get bonus points in the early rounds, but tough weight class. Top 8 or round of 12.
PSU - 174 - Morelli - I think Geno is a safer bet than Shakur here. I see Geno round if 12 and possible top 8.
OKST - 174 - KC - I'd say top 5, but Hall handled him pretty easily. Top 5 to 8.
PSU - 184 - Bo - Should make the finals, but can he beat Dean? Top 2
OKST - 184 - Boyd - He did beat Dean. Very long wrestler. Definitely top 8, possible top 5.
PSU - 197 - Cutch - Matt has looked good at 197. He just needs to stay healthy. If he does, has a chance for top 5.
OKST - 197 - Weigel - possible top 8 or round of 12. Weaker weight class and Preston is tough.
PSU - HWY - NN - Has looked good. Needs to stay healthy. If he does, top 8 with a possible top 5.
OKST - HWY - Schafer - Round of 12.
OKST has a team where a lot of weight classes could place high. To me, it's real tight without Hall. If Hall doesn't go, I think Suriano, Zane, Nolf and Bo need to make the finals. Cutch, Nevills and Cenzo need to place top 8 or better. Anything out of the other 3 is a bonus.
Seeing who's leaving from other teams means next year will likely be an easier one for us. Pull the shirt, and it's likely 3 in a row (2016, 2017, 2018), Not to mention 7 out of the last 8 - yes, even better as a recruiting argument. As far as the redshirt goes - Team always comes first, not individual accomplishments.
Excellent point about Snyder last year. Tan Tom may have done us a yuuuuge favor with that one. Made no difference last year, and SR Snyder vs. FR Singletary might be the difference in 2019.
FR Snyder lost to Gadson in the finals, so they were already on opposite sides of the bracket.
Oops....missed that.
I has been brought up about the easier route to the top with what other teams will lose. Have to check "WrestleStats". I would also agree the longer Mark is here the better recruiting should be. Another thing that may be of benefit to all parties ( Mark, Cael and Team) is that the RS could later be used to allow Mark to take a shot at the Olympics.
A lot to think about and discuss with all parties before pulling the shirt!
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Why are we having this discussion NOW? Hall has wrestled 14 matches. If he's as good as we think he is, he should have no problem getting an auto-qualifier spot at B1G's. If that's the case, let the shirt on right up until you have to send in the paperwork for B1G. By that time, we have a much clearer picture of Morelli/Rasheed.
Unless, all you "yes's" are concerned that Hall might not get an AQ spot at B1G?
Unless, all you "yes's" are concerned that Hall might not get an AQ spot at B1G?
Maybe all us "yes's" think he would benefit from wrestling a big ten dual schedule vs very limited action against sub par competition.
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Wait. What? Sub par competition? We're pulling his shirt because he's beating up on scrubs?Maybe all us "yes's" think he would benefit from wrestling a big ten dual schedule vs very limited action against sub par competition.
Tiger was making the point that after midlands & the scuffle the high level tournaments for red shirts run dry.Wait. What? Sub par competition? We're pulling his shirt because he's beating up on scrubs?
I voted no, but only because so far that is Hall's and the coaching staff's plan. I seriously doubt Hall is going anywhere. You guys actually think Hall would leave his fourth year if he was undefeated three timer?
This is how great this young man could be.
Right now he's winning on pure talent, I would love to see him fill out and destroy guys for four years.
Now if he and the coaches decide he's ready, I'll be sitting row 16 at B1Gs cheering for him, but until then he should stay fully clothed.
Suriano's situation was different. We had little experience at 125, probably no qualifier. He still could be undefeated four-timer, but I think most here would not be shocked if he lost to Gilman. Give him a shirt and he would be a much stronger wrestler next year.
Hall has that opportunity, he should use it.
This is how great this young man could be.
Right now he's winning on pure talent, I would love to see him fill out and destroy guys for four years.
Now if he and the coaches decide he's ready, I'll be sitting row 16 at B1Gs cheering for him, but until then he should stay fully clothed.
Suriano's situation was different. We had little experience at 125, probably no qualifier. He still could be undefeated four-timer, but I think most here would not be shocked if he lost to Gilman. Give him a shirt and he would be a much stronger wrestler next year.
Hall has that opportunity, he should use it.
A lot of folks are thinking as though the worst case scenario is losing nationals because Cael didn't pull Hall's shirt.
That's incorrect. The worst case scenario is pulling Hall's shirt today, and then Zain or Jason gets hurt -- we waste a year of Hall's eligibility in order to not win the title.
Of course you can't predict injuries, but you can mitigate the risk by waiting as long as possible. And there's zero downside to waiting -- other than re-re-re-re-hashing this discussion after every dual.
That's incorrect. The worst case scenario is pulling Hall's shirt today, and then Zain or Jason gets hurt -- we waste a year of Hall's eligibility in order to not win the title.
Of course you can't predict injuries, but you can mitigate the risk by waiting as long as possible. And there's zero downside to waiting -- other than re-re-re-re-hashing this discussion after every dual.
I was on the "No" train, but now I think you have to start Friday's dual at 184 and pull his shirt at the end as the dagger, the Face of Minnesota Wrestling.
But I'm naturally a jerk, too.
But I'm naturally a jerk, too.
So far this year, Hall has the same number of matches as Rasheed and Morelli combined.
Cael gave a little insight today on the OP
http://www.pennlive.com/sports/inde...erson_not_overly_conc.html#incart_river_index
http://www.pennlive.com/sports/inde...erson_not_overly_conc.html#incart_river_index
You make some good points Jefe, but you could also argue that the level of developmental exposure for a redshirt is less than it would be if he was in the lineup. So holding him out til the end might constitute an opportunity cost, developmentally speaking. Call the shirt early though, and the opportunity cost may be lost on a team that later incurred too many injuries to win it. We'll get this one figured and then move on to world hunger
How many of Mark's matches was he wearing the blue and white singlet, how many of those matches did he compete as a member of the team in a Penn State competition?
Agreed. And OSU also. I'd like to see the 'pokes fans change their blog name from '34 and Counting' to '34 and Still Counting'
My point being, there haven't been very many Penn State competitions so far this year. Besides, Hall is representing Penn State (and doing it well) regardless of the color of his singlet. That doesn't mean I want to see his shirt pulled. I just think not having a full season is very low on the priority list in making the decision.
It almost sounds as if he has it under control and knows what he is doing. Who would have thunk it.
Agreed. And OSU also. I'd like to see the 'pokes fans change their blog name from '34 and Counting' to '34 and Still Counting'
34 and stalling has a nice ring to it........I hear Dean Heil approves of this renaming
