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The brackets come out today

I’m not wasting my time nitpicking the brackets and pouting like a baby because almost every year I whine... and then almost every year our guys commence to destroying whoever is their path.
If you go back to 2011 (I did not look up 2010), Penn State as a team has never wrestled below seed for NCAA's. That even includes Suriano getting a big fat ZERO last year because of the injury and he was a 3 seed.

Ohio State usually wrestles slightly above seed.

I think PSU closes the gap by 5 or 6 points based upon exceeding seeds and picks up another 6 to 8 points in bonus points. If I am correct PSU will win by less than 5 points.
 
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Agree on the All Star Match, somewhat. If Hall wins anyway, who cares about the 2 seed? I seriously doubt Cael is all that sad at Hall getting the 2 -- it's a viable path to the finals. That said, I could see other coaches caring more and pulling their guys.

MFF take is an overreaction. Coaches are not going to risk their guys' health when it only impacts seeding. Really. Jason at 3 does not matter at all. Seed him 15, don't seed him, does not matter. Kemerer at 6 matters only because Jason is the 3. Suriano's MFFs probably improved his bracket -- now gets Cruz in the semis instead of Nato or Lee.

And they're not gonna disqualify their guys from nationals by sitting them at conference tournaments, if they're likely to get an at large.
Exactly right. In the regular season tournaments, if someone is not healthy they are held out for the entire tournament (Joseph at the Keystone Classic). Conference tournaments are a different matter, your wrestler has to take the mat to be eligible for NCAA's. For all we know with Kemerer, he could have aggravated his knee injury in the semi's and not been medically cleared to wrestle the remainder of the tournament.
 
The way I look at it is that the tough matches that everyone is mentioning that makes our draws look harder are even more daunting to their competition that they are going up against in those matches in most instances.. You have to beat the best to win the champion ship and so take em out early or take em out late.. who cares.. plus if you send them into consis, maybe they take out an opponent from another team and end their tourney.. limiting their wrestle back opportunity.. I also think there are a couple of our guys who have good to great opportunity to out wrestle see... ie Nolf, Rasheed, Lee and even Keener (if he opens up a bit and attacks like it the 3rd period) while I think there are a couple OSU guys who could wrestle below seed... Pletcher/Hayes/M Jordan... In the end, you need to beat the guy in front of you.. PSU has been pretty good at doing that over the past several years.. Can't wait to see it all go down..
 
For all those worried about Nick Nevills' draw, he is wrestling on a completely different level compared to his early season struggles. Boykin, Dhesi, etc these guys will not touch him. Nick will cruise to the semifinals.

WE ARE!!!
Dhesi is wrestling well after a slow start(knee). Don't think Nick will just cruise by him, Dhesi will be a tough out.
 
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Agree on the All Star Match, somewhat. If Hall wins anyway, who cares about the 2 seed? I seriously doubt Cael is all that sad at Hall getting the 2 -- it's a viable path to the finals. That said, I could see other coaches caring more and pulling their guys.

MFF take is an overreaction. Coaches are not going to risk their guys' health when it only impacts seeding. Really. Jason at 3 does not matter at all. Seed him 15, don't seed him, does not matter. Kemerer at 6 matters only because Jason is the 3. Suriano's MFFs probably improved his bracket -- now gets Cruz in the semis instead of Nato or Lee.

And they're not gonna disqualify their guys from nationals by sitting them at conference tournaments, if they're likely to get an at large.
I agree that PSU didn't really get hurt here, my comments were more generally about mild annoyance over the process itself, which reminds me of the scene in the Hudsucker Proxy, depicting a roomful of accountants poring over complex analytics to arrive at a precise price point for the hula hoop. A stack of papers with accounting math is delivered to the executive who looks at the numbers and then adds a zero after the price the accountants had come up with.

RPI was supposed to count for something but it clearly lost a tiebreaker to MFF penalties, which aren't listed as a consideration. It's not an arbitrary decision by the coaches because you can understand why they did it, but they definitely called an audible.

That said, it's probably not a bad idea to penalize MFFs in conference tournaments to some degree if only because we're all cheated out of some good matches. If I'm a coach I guess I'm on notice that that's how it's being handled now.
 
The big difference for Kemerer as I see it is he got pinned and then MFF out of the tourney. That is different from a guy who wins 15-2 and MMF out or wins like NS did and then MFF out. I have to think the committee found a way to calculate that into the process. Tough break for Kem.
 
I agree with all the talk about how nobody is going to want to wrestle at the all star classic because of what happened to Hall this year. However, I also find it very interesting that Pantaleo lost to Rider's Clagon at this year's all star classic! Clagon is a former one time AA but was abysmal this year, finishing with a 14-12 record and 3rd in the EWL.
 
I'm with the others who has a hard time seeing Kemerer at the #6 seed, and find it a bad draw having Kemerer and Nolf wrestle in quarters (bad draw for Kemerer). But, there is another side of this story.

The real question is how badly hurt are Kemerer and Nolf. If they are significantly hurt to the point that their performance is majorly affected, then there is a reason to seed them lower. We only have to look back to last year and NS getting the #3 seed and not even wrestling (thus messing up the brackets). Three years ago Delgado, Kindig and H Stieber all got very low seeds (or no seed) due to injuries, and we all complained about that at the time. It turns out that none of them was really able to compete effectively and their seeds were justified. With so little information out about injuries, the seeding committee doesn't know how much it will affect their performance.

I don't like the seeds (especially Kemerer's), but I don't know how badly he's hurt. Just wanted to mention another side of the issue.
 
Agree on the All Star Match, somewhat. If Hall wins anyway, who cares about the 2 seed? I seriously doubt Cael is all that sad at Hall getting the 2 -- it's a viable path to the finals. That said, I could see other coaches caring more and pulling their guys.

MFF take is an overreaction. Coaches are not going to risk their guys' health when it only impacts seeding. Really. Jason at 3 does not matter at all. Seed him 15, don't seed him, does not matter. Kemerer at 6 matters only because Jason is the 3.
I have no problem with Hall at #2. Don't think that #1 versus #2 seed makes a big difference at that weight. The angst about Hall's seed boils down to an academic and largely unimportant discussion about impact of the All-Star match.

Also have no problem with Nolf at #3; it's a reasonable seed after MFFing to 6th in the conference tourney. However, it is stupid and overly punitive to then seed Kemerer at #6. Kemerer should be #4 or #5 and on the other side of the bracket from Nolf. Put Shields at #6. Nolf and Kemerer meeting in the quarters is just stupid when there were equitable ways to avoid this. Dumb.
 
I agree with all the talk about how nobody is going to want to wrestle at the all star classic because of what happened to Hall this year. However, I also find it very interesting that Pantaleo lost to Rider's Clagon at this year's all star classic! Clagon is a former one time AA but was abysmal this year, finishing with a 14-12 record and 3rd in the EWL.
I saw that match and Clagon looked really good as he has at times in his careeer, I also saw him wrestle during the season and he looked really bad. Looked bad against short who I think he had beaten earlier in his career easily. He also didn’t look good at the classic. Just don’t know what happen to him but not surprised he didn’t quality based on what I saw during the season
 
The big difference for Kemerer as I see it is he got pinned and then MFF out of the tourney. That is different from a guy who wins 15-2 and MMF out or wins like NS did and then MFF out. I have to think the committee found a way to calculate that into the process. Tough break for Kem.
Tougher break for the wrestler who was expecting an easier match when facing a 6 seed
 
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Every year it's pretty much the same discussion with seedings at NCAA's. And every year, the National Tournament is an incredible event. The talent is so good at every weight class, that once a seeded wrestler gets past, say the first round (and many don't even do that!), there's a worthy opponent standing across from you. So here's a few comments;

-- Injuries stink. The committee takes into consideration body-of-work, but what do you do with a wrestler that MFF'd late in the season and didn't even finish their conference tournament. Those are tough calls, that have as many sides to it as there are members on this forum, or members of the seeding committee. For example, they all (and we all) know Jason is the best guy at 157 when healthy, hands down. But that's not what they're dealing with. Tough calls.

-- Tom Ryan, and the other coaches on the NCAA Wrestling Committee (all who have responsibility for seeding), should recuse themselves from the seeding portion of their responsibilities. Even if they are trustworthy, high-character folks, being in a position where you could, even remotely, be perceived as playing favorites, is irresponsible in my book.

-- Anyone that believes our coaching staff doesn't care about seeding is misinformed. Of course they do, and all they want is that the system be fair. For example, returning champ Cruz getting a #1 seed after an ASC loss, while Hall getting #2, doesn't pass the sniff test for fair and consistent treatment.

-- Looking at the championship bracket, and the match-ups, is where all fans look first. Astute fans also look at wrestle-backs, and the match-ups that may happen. About 40% of all points earned at the Championships happen in that "other" bracket.
 
-- Tom Ryan, and the other coaches on the NCAA Wrestling Committee (all who have responsibility for seeding), should recuse themselves from the seeding portion of their responsibilities. Even if they are trustworthy, high-character folks, being in a position where you could, even remotely, be perceived as playing favorites, is irresponsible in my book.

This^^. But the coaches shouldn't even be in a position where they need to recuse themselves. They shouldn't be part of the seeding process in the first place, period. The situation is really sort of mind-boggling.
 
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-- Looking at the championship bracket, and the match-ups, is where all fans look first. Astute fans also look at wrestle-backs, and the match-ups that may happen. About 40% of all points earned at the Championships happen in that "other" bracket.

Good observation regarding the wrestle-backs. I think Micah has a very good chance to finish 4th and would not be shocked if he picks up a forfeit win over Kemerer in the consolation quarters.
 
Every year it's pretty much the same discussion with seedings at NCAA's. And every year, the National Tournament is an incredible event. The talent is so good at every weight class, that once a seeded wrestler gets past, say the first round (and many don't even do that!), there's a worthy opponent standing across from you. So here's a few comments;

-- Injuries stink. The committee takes into consideration body-of-work, but what do you do with a wrestler that MFF'd late in the season and didn't even finish their conference tournament. Those are tough calls, that have as many sides to it as there are members on this forum, or members of the seeding committee. For example, they all (and we all) know Jason is the best guy at 157 when healthy, hands down. But that's not what they're dealing with. Tough calls.

-- Tom Ryan, and the other coaches on the NCAA Wrestling Committee (all who have responsibility for seeding), should recuse themselves from the seeding portion of their responsibilities. Even if they are trustworthy, high-character folks, being in a position where you could, even remotely, be perceived as playing favorites, is irresponsible in my book.

-- Anyone that believes our coaching staff doesn't care about seeding is misinformed. Of course they do, and all they want is that the system be fair. For example, returning champ Cruz getting a #1 seed after an ASC loss, while Hall getting #2, doesn't pass the sniff test for fair and consistent treatment.

-- Looking at the championship bracket, and the match-ups, is where all fans look first. Astute fans also look at wrestle-backs, and the match-ups that may happen. About 40% of all points earned at the Championships happen in that "other" bracket.
At 149 bouts 61 and 62 all four guys in that pod are from the Big 12. Didn't they wrestle last weekend for a reason? Ever seen this before?
 
Good observation regarding the wrestle-backs. I think Micah has a very good chance to finish 4th and would not be shocked if he picks up a forfeit win over Kemerer in the consolation quarters.

What is Kemerer's injury that he's battling or did he just FF out because TnT didn't think there was anything to gain by wrestling? (which turned out to be quite incorrect)
 
Lee has a very good shot at getting AA but then would run into the loser of McKenna/Jack in conso quarters. I'm guessing McKenna who has a lot to prove in this tourney based on what happened last year so you never know.

If that's the way it plays out then NL at least ends up in his 'seeded slot' in the 7/8 match.

Lee's match w/Alber in R2 is the real key. It was close before he decked him @SS, so imo it's still a toss-up. If Lee loses that match, then he'll most likely have to go thru the loser of Yianni/Heil just to get to the AA rds. Rather see him avoid that:cool:
 
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At 149 bouts 61 and 62 all four guys in that pod are from the Big 12. Didn't they wrestle last weekend for a reason? Ever seen this before?
No idea, and it doesn't really matter, imo.

Up until 2014, the rule was that wrestlers from the same conference/qualifying tournament could not face each other in the first round of championships. That changed the same year they started seeding to 16.
 
If that's the way it plays out then NL at least ends up in his 'seeded slot' in the 7/8 match.

Lee's match w/Alber in R2 is the real key. It was close before he decked him @SS, so imo it's still a toss-up. If Lee loses that match, then he'll most likely have to go thru the loser of Yianni/Heil just to get to the AA rds. Rather see him avoid that:cool:
If he wins and if loses to Meredith he likely faces Carr. Needs to bring it.
 
Lavallee with the #2 seed. That could be good for Nolf if he gets #3 (which he deserves) He would avoid Kemmerer (who is quite dangerous) and Hidlay (who is still a relative unknown). Nolf dismantled Lavalle in the finals last year.

If someone would have said Hidlay would be the number one seed at 157, people
would have thought him crazy. If Nolf is 90% for the tournament, he breezes.
 
I wish we had video of Dhesi pummeling Hall and Butler (x2). But can't find anything. FU Pac 12.
 
Machiavello is tough..he flat out beat Moore this year. But then so did Cassar.
If that's the way it plays out then NL at least ends up in his 'seeded slot' in the 7/8 match.

Lee's match w/Alber in R2 is the real key. It was close before he decked him @SS, so imo it's still a toss-up. If Lee loses that match, then he'll most likely have to go thru the loser of Yianni/Heil just to get to the AA rds. Rather see him avoid that:cool:

I would also rather see him avoid that. But if two-time champ and fifth-year senior Dean Heil finds himself in the wrestlebacks, he might have some trouble summoning up his A game. I would like Lee's chances in that match up.
 
I wish we had video of Dhesi pummeling Hall and Butler (x2). But can't find anything. FU Pac 12.
No video, just stats from wrestlestat, most recent at the top...pretty offensive 285;

#9 Butler, Nathan (24 - 7) #33 Stanford 02/25 Pac 12 Championships 285 W MD 11 - 2
#129 Empey, Spencer (7 - 13) #69 Cal Poly 02/25 Pac 12 Championships 285 W FALL 2:07
#120 Penyacsek, Mark (8 - 17) #51 CSU Bakersfield 02/11 Oregon State - CSU Bakersfield Dual 285 W TF5 27 - 12 7:00
#9 Butler, Nathan (24 - 7) #33 Stanford 02/10 Oregon State - Stanford Dual 285 W DEC 8 - 5
#33 Nevills, AJ (25 - 8) #65 Fresno State 02/05 Fresno State - Oregon State Dual 285 W MD 19 - 6
#128 Winters, Robert (12 - 19) #63 Northern Colorado 01/28 Northern Colorado - Oregon State Dual 285 W MD 21 - 9
#7 Hall, Tanner (20 - 6) #9 Arizona State 01/20 Oregon State - Arizona State Dual 285 W DEC 9 - 5
#150 Mullins, Hunter (7 - 14) #24 Wyoming 01/14 Wyoming - Oregon State Dual 285 W MD 12 - 4
#50 Harrington, Marcus (22 - 13) #57 Iowa State 01/07 Oregon State - Iowa State Dual 285 W MD 13 - 4
#101 Wolters, Blake (15 - 13) #27 South Dakota State 01/05 Oregon State - South Dakota State Dual 285 W FALL 2:43
#133 Stone, Ben (8 - 18) #26 Wisconsin 12/29 Midlands Invitational 285 W MD 20 - 8
#19 Jennings, Conan (24 - 10) #25 Northwestern 12/29 Midlands Invitational 285 L DEC 9 - 2
#119 Spaulding, Jon (10 - 12) #29 Edinboro 12/29 Midlands Invitational 285 W TF5 21 - 6 7:00
#13 Hemida, Youssef (27 - 5) #46 Maryland 12/29 Midlands Invitational 285 L FALL 4:05
#31 Gunning, Jake (16 - 6) #55 Buffalo 12/29 Midlands Invitational 285 W DEC 5 - 2
#42 Correnti, Matt (15 - 6) #14 Rutgers 12/29 Midlands Invitational 285 W FALL 0:59
Johnson, Cody Colorado State University - Pueblo 12/17 Reno Tournament or Champions 285 W FALL 4:13
#62 Stibral, Dan (21 - 14) #42 North Dakota State 12/17 Reno Tournament or Champions 285 W DEC 9 - 5
#16 Boykin, Michael (20 - 6) #5 North Carolina State 12/17 Reno Tournament or Champions 285 W DEC 2 - 1
#14 Heino, Jere (24 - 5) #37 Campbell 12/17 Reno Tournament or Champions 285 W DEC 5 - 3
#129 Empey, Spencer (7 - 13) #69 Cal Poly 12/17 Reno Tournament or Champions 285 W MD 21 - 9
 
Every year Cael has taken a contender to NCAAs they've won.

I'm counting on the Penn State swagger returning for nationals.
 
Their AD is on the football playoff selection committee and Ryan is on this committee.. WTF is up with that? Seems odd to say the least..

and delaney has two buckeyes dangling from the rear view mirror of his scarlet and grey suburban he got from Jack Maxton Chevy
 
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and delaney has two buckeyes dangling from the rear view mirror of his scarlet and grey suburban he got from Jack Maxton Chevy

But don't forget about the skunk bear helmet paint job across the front hood of the same vehicle, either. He would never leave out his other favorite school.
 
The big difference for Kemerer as I see it is he got pinned and then MFF out of the tourney. That is different from a guy who wins 15-2 and MMF out or wins like NS did and then MFF out. I have to think the committee found a way to calculate that into the process. Tough break for Kem.

Definitely some strange selections. It’d be interesting to observe the decision-making process.

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