tOSU and Michigan
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Without any offense to NN, the kid has a ton of heart, if someone proposed eliminating HWT entirely and replacing it with a 225 class, I'd vote for that in a heartbeat. The number is Stoll-like, yawn inducing, dancing bears would drop dramatically if this change was made.
Plenty of 3-2 matches at every other weight as well. Many 0-0 first periods at other weights also
Google-hosted images won't transclude anywhere so you need to host it elsewhere, like imgur and use direct path to that image here.I guess, but it felt more like this:
EDIT: hmmm, not sure what went wrong with my noob attempt at posting a pic, but i promise it was a VERY clever (tho low quality) photoshop of Coon as Andre the Giant fighting with Wesley in Princess Bride.dunno, but maybe you can see it by going here: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/s...xmSp_nYY9dUUYcao79OWPc_bz7zuH-lcym8qEuNw=w874
Not sure what you mean by this. 2017 was the first offseason he didn't wrestle Greco. Sure seems to be paying off...
Just to clarify, you're suggesting that other weight classes engage in the dancing bear act with the same frequency as HWT?
Occasionally there are great HWT matches, but they are way too rare, IMO.
Honestly have no clue what you mean either.
The freestyle cultists think there’s a close to 100% correlation between it and folkstyle, but they are different in many ways. Yesterday, folkstyle rules allowed a heavier guy to pound on a smaller guy on bottom for lengthy periods which served to help tire Snyder out. Freestyle is more forgiving there.
Didn’t mention Greco at all, but, yes, if Coon focused more on folkstyle this summer, that strengthens my point.
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Not giving Coon enough credit. His Greco skills would've gotten him to OT tied 1-1. (Well, that plus his riding ability on top.)
He won the match with his freestyle skills: took a shot, countered Snyder's defense into a body lock, and tossed Snyder with it.
I
I dunno, still a mystique to the hwt class. With that said, I am not for moving back to the very old days of it being “unlimited”
Won with all his skills. Almost had riding time too and outwrestled Snyder on the mat
I give Coon plenty of credit, he used his diverse skill set to beat superman. That includes height and weight advantage, Greco skills to tie Snyder up and prevent his typical relentless attacks and excellent athleticism to get the takedown.
Snyder better figure out how to take Coon down, he losses in the rideout.
Gotcha. That's what I couldn't figure out. To me, it's clear that had Coon only focused on free/folk these last 5 years, he'd be THE guy. He's athletic as all hell and a giant of a man.
I think he'll focus on Greco after college, which is why he hasnt solely focused on free/folk. A lot easier road to make the world and Olympic teams in Greco and imo his style is better suited to Greco. In free he has to go up against Gwiz, Rey, Fortune, Gable Steveson, and a whole host of very talented guys. In Greco his only real competition is a 31 year old Robby Smith who has never come close to a Olympic or World medal despite 5 or 6 shots at it.
So when Snyder beats the big heavies like Nevills, Medberry, Gwiz, and many others, not a whisper of the size disparity. Now he loses to Coon and all the sudden we need a new weight class and it’s unfair to Superman to have to battle the big boys. Give me a break.
CP still has him as the best wrestler in the world, even though he wrestles a part time schedule and could not turn my youngest son for backs. Zain is the best collegeit wrestler. He has never been pinned. He currently has the longest undefeated record in active college wrestlers. What about his bonus rate compared to Snyder? He wrestles a full schedule. His neutral game is top notch. No one can ride him from bottom. And his top game is arguably the best in the game. Sorry got off subject.
Snyder is still a beast. Him and Coon are going to have two more epic meetings. It’s going to be interesting to see the adjustments made going forward. I really think Adam can beat him both times, though I would not be surprised to see Kyle figure out a way to win.
CP still has him as the best wrestler in the world, even though he wrestles a part time schedule and could not turn my youngest son for backs. Zain is the best collegeit wrestler. He has never been pinned. He currently has the longest undefeated record in active college wrestlers. What about his bonus rate compared to Snyder? He wrestles a full schedule. His neutral game is top notch. No one can ride him from bottom. And his top game is arguably the best in the game. Sorry got off subject.
Snyder is still a beast. Him and Coon are going to have two more epic meetings. It’s going to be interesting to see the adjustments made going forward. I really think Adam can beat him both times, though I would not be surprised to see Kyle figure out a way to win.
Yes -- though to be completely fair, so did Coon 2 years ago when Snyder beat him 7-4 at B10s. In a best of 10, how often does Terkay get Angle? Who knows.
That does bring up a great story though: after Angle won, he told Terkay "I'm glad I'll never have to face you again."
I'm with you both. Probably wouldn't frame it as 'Snyder's in trouble to repeat', but would definitely frame it as a question: CAN Snyder beat this 2018 Adam Coon?
I remember that single leg clearly from their 2016 bout. Snyder was in on the exact same shot, muscled up, lifted that 2016 Coon Leg and took the beast down.
Exact same situation, but vs 2018 Coon Leg? Couldn't fell the tree!
Bloodround's been talking about it all season: that Adam Coon spent his redshirt year with a single purpose: change his body & pace to beat Kyle Snyder. Now he's done it.
And I thought it looks, quite viably, repeatable.
Not many of our homers were making excuses for Sadulaev when he went up to face Snyder and lost a close one. Not nearly the same weight difference, but a difference in size all the same
Someone should educate Eleven Warriors on a certain coach in the Big Ten named McCoy. Pretty sure he gave up a fair amount of weight against a future NFL OL and came out just fine. Of course there is a big weight difference, but those are the rules and them's the breaks.
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Agree that the call at 184 probably wouldn't have been reversed. My point was that it made no sense to challenge at 125 where they were assured a loss either way.
It seemed too early to challenging a call that might make a difference of 1 team point.
The difference is that while Heavys do the Dancing Bear Routine (i.e. lock up with everlasting collar ties) the lighter weights so often engage in other boring dance routines. The endless grade school bouts of head slapping & tapping or senseless hand gesticulations reminiscent of a spastic Mime all while spiraling around the mat. For some reason, these dances of the lighter weights are considered vigorous hand fighting instead of the mind numbing dances that they are.
Yes. Different moves, but since the defensive wrestler was in peril the whole time, it’s a continuation event and only one set of backs is earned.
Have fun with this...from the rulebook...
Section 5. Near Fall
Art. 1. Near Fall Criteria. A near fall is a position in which the offensive
wrestler has the opponent in a controlled pinning situation in which any one of
the following three criteria are met:
a. The defensive wrestler is held in a high bridge or on both elbows;
b. Any part of one shoulder or scapula, or the head is touching the mat and
the other shoulder or scapula is held at an angle of 45 degrees or less to
the mat; or
c. Any part of both shoulders or both scapulae are held within four inches
of the mat.
In any pinning situation, a near fall may occur if any part of either wrestler
remains in bounds.
Art. 2. Counting the Near Fall. A verbal count and, whenever possible, a visual
hand count shall be used in determining a near fall. Likewise, a referee shall
verbally inform the wrestlers when near fall points have been earned. A near
fall is ended when the defensive wrestler is no longer in one of the three criteria
positions. The referee shall not signal the score for a near fall until the hold used
to secure the near-fall criterion is completely released.
Section 5. Near Fall
Art. 1. Near Fall Criteria. A near fall is a position in which the offensive
wrestler has the opponent in a controlled pinning situation in which any one of
the following three criteria are met:
a. The defensive wrestler is held in a high bridge or on both elbows;
b. Any part of one shoulder or scapula, or the head is touching the mat and
the other shoulder or scapula is held at an angle of 45 degrees or less to
the mat; or
c. Any part of both shoulders or both scapulae are held within four inches
of the mat.
In any pinning situation, a near fall may occur if any part of either wrestler
remains in bounds.
Art. 2. Counting the Near Fall. A verbal count and, whenever possible, a visual
hand count shall be used in determining a near fall. Likewise, a referee shall
verbally inform the wrestlers when near fall points have been earned. A near
fall is ended when the defensive wrestler is no longer in one of the three criteria
positions. The referee shall not signal the score for a near fall until the hold used
to secure the near-fall criterion is completely released.
Snyder lost to a collegiate HeavyWeight. He is still the best p4p freestyle wrestler on the planet and pretty sure he will take that over being the best collegiate Heavy any day. Kyle is a classy guy and took his first loss in three years better than Stoll took his 9th
From the bolded, I surmise that two 4-point near falls should have been called. After the first near fall and before the cradle was hooked up, the defensive wrestler was NOT in a criteria position, therefore two separate nearfalls should have been called.
I suppose that is a fair point.
However, if someone with more time, knowledge and resources were to do a statistical study, the safe money would be on the fact that lighter weights have both more shooting and higher total points per match. Surely the athleticism of a 225 class would be more fun to watch than the dancing bears, don't you think?
Some of yalls posts are cracking me up, man!!
We need 220? No, we don't! If we had 220, we wouldn't have had a great stinking match!
The size disparity was what MADE that match so great! And make no mistakes, that was an awesome match Kyle and Adam wrestled!
I can't wait who wins next time, I just can't wait to see it! (Not true; we may need Snyder to lose, LOL)
And again, that same size disparity is what made for a great match - maybe the best ever at heavyweight, at least since Bruce Baumgartner vs. Lou Banach - between Snyder and Gwiz years ago.
I'm all about keeping 285 as it is if it keeps wrestling as it is. Yeah, sure, you get plenty of shaved bear matches, but you know what else? Let's be real for a minute. No one is gonna fall in love with wrestling at some of these other weights when it's, say, Dean Heil and pick a name wrestling a thrilling 2-1 match. That can happen at any weight. I love Zain, but if your first exposure to him was last Saturday against Sorensen (doing the Snorensen "zero shots" routine), you may be mistaken into thinking Zain is just another wrestler.
The only person who's definitely not ok with 285 is Tom Ryan, and that's just because he's a sore loser and selfish poisonous nut. LMAO! If Ohio State gets a stud 275 pound heavyweight, Ryan will change his mind overnight. That's just how he is.
We need 220? No, we don't! If we had 220, we wouldn't have had a great stinking match!
The size disparity was what MADE that match so great! And make no mistakes, that was an awesome match Kyle and Adam wrestled!
I can't wait who wins next time, I just can't wait to see it! (Not true; we may need Snyder to lose, LOL)
And again, that same size disparity is what made for a great match - maybe the best ever at heavyweight, at least since Bruce Baumgartner vs. Lou Banach - between Snyder and Gwiz years ago.
I'm all about keeping 285 as it is if it keeps wrestling as it is. Yeah, sure, you get plenty of shaved bear matches, but you know what else? Let's be real for a minute. No one is gonna fall in love with wrestling at some of these other weights when it's, say, Dean Heil and pick a name wrestling a thrilling 2-1 match. That can happen at any weight. I love Zain, but if your first exposure to him was last Saturday against Sorensen (doing the Snorensen "zero shots" routine), you may be mistaken into thinking Zain is just another wrestler.
The only person who's definitely not ok with 285 is Tom Ryan, and that's just because he's a sore loser and selfish poisonous nut. LMAO! If Ohio State gets a stud 275 pound heavyweight, Ryan will change his mind overnight. That's just how he is.
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Right now it looks like Nolf vs. I-Mar, round one, 2016
Few people thought Nolf was gonna take out the champ. Then, when it was all over, it was obvious that Nolf's win was not just a surprise, but a win that could be duplicated. Subsequent matches showed that Nolf and I-Mar were indeed closely matched. I think that will be the same with Coon and Snyder.
Coon was pretty conservative in the end, which was smart, but that last shot - which he didn't finish, opting to play it safe - was really nice. Gwiz is the only other guy to get in consistently on Snyder like that. Coon is awesome now.
Actually my comments were not related specifically to Coon v Snyder at all. More a general commentary on HWT. But if you believe that low-scoring boring, huggy bear matches occur with equal frequency at other weights as at HWT, then we just need to agree to disagree. They simply don't.
I don't think we need 220 in college, but I think having 220 in High School has been helping the overall quality of college Heavys. Without 220 in HS, we'd be loosing out on good athletic kids that could grow into a solid 240ish college heavy. Without 220 in HS, these guys would be dropping wrestling for something else.
I am torn, on the one hand, yeah, we get robbed of watching Snyder pick up Conor Medbery. On the other hand, the average american is bigger now than however many years ago it was decided these are the weights. I don't see how a guy who walks around at 220 is in the same weight class (from a logic point of view) as a guy who walks around at 275. Most other weights have a 5%-8% gap up to the next weight. From 197 to HWT is like 44%.
If low-scoring and boring matches is your qualifiers, then I'd be willing to bet actual money that an overall, comprehensive, statistical review (which neither of us likely has time to perform) would show that those kinds of matches are a problem throughout wrestling. Proof #1: We're all complaining about stalling all the time at all weights!!
And what, exactly, would adding 220 do to fix that? Uh, nothing.
What it comes down to is that, for some reason, people dislike boring wrestling even more when it involves two bigger guys.
Of course you added the "huggy bear" caveat. I don't really know what that's supposed to mean. But I watched boring crap like Micah Jordan vs. Brandon Sorensen last year. They aren't big enough to be bears, but closely-matched, slow-styled wrestlers do enough wasting time in ties crap to be called "huggy."
The amateur psychology stuff is hard to do well. Too much competition from crackpots!
My psychoanalysis of the match is that Snyder is making a secret cry for help. He is too proud to ask directly, so he is asking through his wrestling. Let's send Spyker over with a pot of chicken soup!
You skipped this part of the rule. The referee shall not signal the score for a near fall until the hold used to secure the near-fall criterion is completely released.
This situation was unusual in that Pantaleo had the half in and went right to the cradle so was the hold really released? IMHO, this call could go either way and is a split second decision by the ref. I would have loved to see it challenged to see what they decided and an explanation (which we almost certainly would not have gotten) as to why they made whatever decision they made.
You misread my post. I did not suggest adding 220. I suggested that HWT should be eliminated entirely and replaced by 225. That would certainly lead to more athletic wrestlers and likely more offense and overall action.
While I agree that more offense needs to be incentivized overall in the sport (I also think the difference between an offensive TD and an escape should be more than one point), I disagree that it is equal throughout the weight classes. HWT clearly has the most inactive, tie-up and dance and rarely take a shot matches of any weight class. I stand by that assertion, regardless of Dean Heil.
Sometimes change is a good thing, however attached we get to the status quo.
