tOSU and Michigan

[Hotshoe]

Some of yalls posts are cracking me up, man!!

We need 220? No, we don't! If we had 220, we wouldn't have had a great stinking match!

The size disparity was what MADE that match so great! And make no mistakes, that was an awesome match Kyle and Adam wrestled!

I can't wait who wins next time, I just can't wait to see it! (Not true; we may need Snyder to lose, LOL)

And again, that same size disparity is what made for a great match - maybe the best ever at heavyweight, at least since Bruce Baumgartner vs. Lou Banach - between Snyder and Gwiz years ago.

I'm all about keeping 285 as it is if it keeps wrestling as it is. Yeah, sure, you get plenty of shaved bear matches, but you know what else? Let's be real for a minute. No one is gonna fall in love with wrestling at some of these other weights when it's, say, Dean Heil and pick a name wrestling a thrilling 2-1 match. That can happen at any weight. I love Zain, but if your first exposure to him was last Saturday against Sorensen (doing the Snorensen "zero shots" routine), you may be mistaken into thinking Zain is just another wrestler.

The only person who's definitely not ok with 285 is Tom Ryan, and that's just because he's a sore loser and selfish poisonous nut. LMAO! If Ohio State gets a stud 275 pound heavyweight, Ryan will change his mind overnight. That's just how he is.

So it's okay to have numerous weights below 200, but above 200 is wrong, won't provide good wrestling, and the Coon Snyder match is proof? Sorry, not buying it. 60+ pound discrepancy is a bit much. Yeah, they don't have a choice, but doesn't mean 1 weight class is okay.

 

[manatree]

You misread my post. I did not suggest adding 220. I suggested that HWT should be eliminated entirely and replaced by 225. That would certainly lead to more athletic wrestlers and likely more offense and overall action.
.

In my opinion, passive wrestling has nothing to do with the athletic ability of the participants. It is more a reflection of coaching philosophy and the mind set of the wrestler than their ability or BMI.

 

[El-Jefe]

In my opinion, passive wrestling has nothing to do with the athletic ability of the participants. It is more a reflection of coaching philosophy and the mind set of the wrestler than their ability or BMI.

And the refs letting them get away with it.

Funny how the entire HWT class ticked upward when the ref (rightly) dinged Nelson for the stall ride of doom vs. Gwiz. But Nelson isn't doing that for most of his career if the refs ding him for it all along.

 

[NittanyChris]

In my opinion, passive wrestling has nothing to do with the athletic ability of the participants. It is more a reflection of coaching philosophy and the mind set of the wrestler than their ability or BMI.

Ok, so your position is that, on average, HWTs do not wrestle a more passive style than other weight classes?

If so, I adamantly disagree. Just simply based upon what I've seen week to week. Don't have the data to back it up though, just my impression.

 

[Dwayne_Johnson33]

Not sure if this has been discussed already, if so my apologies, but has anyone been able to secure a single takedown against Coon this season?

 

[manatree]

Ok, so your position is that, on average, HWTs do not wrestle a more passive style than other weight classes?

If so, I adamantly disagree. Just simply based upon what I've seen week to week. Don't have the data to back it up though, just my impression.

My position is that even if the Heavies do wrestle more passively than the other weight classes, eliminating the weight class is not the solution. Changing and enforcing the rules to penalize passivity is the solution.

For example, back before my time basketball was a much slower paced, and often boring game. One of the main reasons for this was that the rules allowed you to just stand there and hold the ball for as long as you damn well pleased. Typically, the players doing most of the holding of the ball were the undersized guards. Fortunately, the powers that were didn't decide to eliminate short guards, they changed the rules to speed up the game such as adding a shot clock, the three second rule in the paint, etc.

 

[matter7172]

For example, back before my time basketball was a much slower paced, and often boring game. One of the main reasons for this was that the rules allowed you to just stand there and hold the ball for as long as you damn well pleased. Typically, the players doing most of the holding of the ball were the undersized guards. Fortunately, the powers that were didn't decide to eliminate short guards, they changed the rules to speed up the game such as adding a shot clock, the three second rule in the paint, etc.

I'm not sure what "before your time" means but the shot clock was instituted in the NBA in 1954. It is true that the shot clock was introduced after North Carolina utilized the "four corners" offense but they were outliers.

In reality, the NBA is a slower game now than it used to be and college is also. If you adjusted for the three point shot, the scoring is much less, too.

 

[NittanyChris]

My position is that even if the Heavies do wrestle more passively than the other weight classes, eliminating the weight class is not the solution. Changing and enforcing the rules to penalize passivity is the solution.

For example, back before my time basketball was a much slower paced, and often boring game. One of the main reasons for this was that the rules allowed you to just stand there and hold the ball for as long as you damn well pleased. Typically, the players doing most of the holding of the ball were the undersized guards. Fortunately, the powers that were didn't decide to eliminate short guards, they changed the rules to speed up the game such as adding a shot clock, the three second rule in the paint, etc.

Though I think the analogy is a poor one, I agree that there are definitely some rule changes combined with calling stalling more aggressively that could help as well.

I still believe that HWTs absolutely wrestle a much more boring style, sometimes painfully so, than other weight classes even as the rules are currently comprised and enforced.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

I have to say that little Amine has the single most annoying style I’ve ever seen. Herky-jerky with his arms out at wierd angles and lurching about like a fast zombie. It was highly distracting. He was like the opposite of Ed Ruth who glided around like a Panther

 

[manatree]

I have to say that little Amine has the single most annoying style I’ve ever seen. Herky-jerky with his arms out at wierd angles and lurching about like a fast zombie. It was highly distracting. He was like the opposite of Ed Ruth who glided around like a Panther

The Spastic Mime Waltz.

 

[manatree]

Regarding rule changes, I'd rather make the intent of any rule changes to encourage & reward aggressive wrestling and encourage & reward back points and pins rather than penalizing passive wrestling as the latter is more open to interpretation.

If I were king for a day, I would tweak the team scoring as follows:
Decision (win by <8) = 2 team points
Major Decision (win by 8+) = 3 team points
Superior Decision (win by 15+) = 4 team points
Tech Fall (win by 15+ with at least two separate sets of back points) = 5 team points
Pin = 6 team points
No match ends early except for pins, defaults or dq.

 

[aalion]

And the refs letting them get away with it.

Funny how the entire HWT class ticked upward when the ref (rightly) dinged Nelson for the stall ride of doom vs. Gwiz. But Nelson isn't doing that for most of his career if the refs ding him for it all along.

Did that actually happen? I don’t recall Nelson getting hit for stalling in that match (assuming you are talking about the NCAA champ match). Nelson road him out in the 2nd... Gwiz concedes the escape to start 3rd... hit a takedown during which Nelson asked for injury time... G chose neutral and for another takedown to win it. If Nelson got hit for stalling it at most was once and didn’t impact the match. Unless I am losing it.

 

[PAgeologist]

Regarding rule changes, I'd rather make the intent of any rule changes to encourage & reward aggressive wrestling and encourage & reward back points and pins rather than penalizing passive wrestling as the latter is more open to interpretation.

If I were king for a day, I would tweak the team scoring as follows:
Decision (win by <8) = 2 team points
Major Decision (win by 8+) = 3 team points
Superior Decision (win by 15+) = 4 team points
Tech Fall (win by 15+ with at least two separate sets of back points) = 5 team points
Pin = 6 team points

I like the idea but I would argue though that would cause more stalling on bottom trying not to get turned to save the team one or two points.

Not sure any major rule changes are needed. Existing ones need enforced more aggressively.

 

[El-Jefe]

Did that actually happen? I don’t recall Nelson getting hit for stalling in that match (assuming you are talking about the NCAA champ match). Nelson road him out in the 2nd... Gwiz concedes the escape to start 3rd... hit a takedown during which Nelson asked for injury time... G chose neutral and for another takedown to win it. If Nelson got hit for stalling it at most was once and didn’t impact the match. Unless I am losing it.

Nelson did get hit for top stall. Whether or not it directly impacted the score, it definitely impacted how Nelson wrestled, and he expended a lot more energy riding Gwiz ... may have been the original gassed him from bottom.

 

[NittanyChris]

Regarding rule changes, I'd rather make the intent of any rule changes to encourage & reward aggressive wrestling and encourage & reward back points and pins rather than penalizing passive wrestling as the latter is more open to interpretation.

If I were king for a day, I would tweak the team scoring as follows:
Decision (win by <8) = 2 team points
Major Decision (win by 8+) = 3 team points
Superior Decision (win by 15+) = 4 team points
Tech Fall (win by 15+ with at least two separate sets of back points) = 5 team points
Pin = 6 team points
No match ends early except for pins, defaults or dq.

That's not bad. I like the thought process. I still like differentiating between a takedown that is initiated by one wrestler, an offensive takedown, if you will, being worth three points and a counter takedown being worth two points only.

I absolutely do not buy the people who say that it would be too difficult to call for the referees. It would reward aggression and pushing the action and discourage just waiting around to score off counter shots.

 

[El-Jefe]

That's not bad. I like the thought process. I still like differentiating between a takedown that is initiated by one wrestler, an offensive takedown, if you will, being worth three points and a counter takedown being worth two points only.

I absolutely do not buy the people who say that it would be too difficult to call for the referees. It would reward aggression and pushing the action and discourage just waiting around to score off counter shots.

How would you call this?

Reminder: make the wrong call, and the pin is wiped out by challenge.

 

[NittanyChris]

How would you call this?

Reminder: make the wrong call, and the pin is wiped out by challenge.

I don't recall if Nolf eventually got the takedown in this situation. I know Nolf pinned him but don't recall this specific sequence. Have to play the tape out further. If he did it looks like IMar initiated first so it would be a 2 point TD for Nolf.

 

[El-Jefe]

I don't recall if Nolf eventually got the takedown in this situation. I know Nolf pinned him but don't recall this specific sequence. Have to play the tape out further. If he did it looks like IMar initiated first so it would be a 2 point TD for Nolf.

Congrats, you may have just cost Jason a pin. Illinois then challenges that Martinez did not attack, he at most faked a shot.

BTW, trick question. If you say T3, then Illinois says Martinez did attack.

Either way they have a good case. The original call might get upheld as inconclusive ... heckuva way to determine a high profile match.

 

[a_mshaffer]

the problem with most bottom wrestling is the need to be conservative to prevent tilts, etc. Just saying...

 

[NittanyChris]

Congrats, you may have just cost Jason a pin. Illinois then challenges that Martinez did not attack, he at most faked a shot.

BTW, trick question. If you say T3, then Illinois says Martinez did attack.

Either way they have a good case. The original call might get upheld as inconclusive ... heckuva way to determine a high profile match.

Well, Nolf-IMar matches are not the problem that rule changes of this sort would be looking to address. They already have plenty of action. The rule change would be for the purpose of stimulating offense in the so many other matches where guys sit around waiting to win on one counter shot.

 

[aalion]

Nelson did get hit for top stall. Whether or not it directly impacted the score, it definitely impacted how Nelson wrestled, and he expended a lot more energy riding Gwiz ... may have been the original gassed him from bottom.

ive still got it on DVR... I will give it a look. Loved that match!