Does Tom Brands make his wrestlers better?

[DELion]

Wow, that's depressing to watch (only saw part 1 so far). It's hard to imagine any wrestlers coming up through the Gable/Brands system achieving their maximum potential in the sport. And any of those wrestlers who go on to be coaches are likely to perpetuate the errors at other programs unless they have some huge paradigm shift after leaving Iowa.

Cael revolutionized coaching the way Dick Fosbury revolutionized the high jump. It's like Brands and the other Gable disciples coaching now are stuck doing the antiquated pre-Fosbury high jump. I guess that's good news for Cael. He's likely to not have much real competition until some of his own pupils become head coaches at other D1 schools.

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There have been other coaches who challenged the traditional grind-it-out approach but they are rare. John Gagliardi from DIII St. John's University in Minnesota comes to mind. He is the winningest college football coach of all time 489-138-11. An interesting book on him: The Sweet Season by Austin Murphy.

No question though that Cael is special (he would deny that).

 

[El-Jefe]

Whoever wrote that post is very articulate and intelligent. I don’t know if that point provides an additional clue unless we know a lot about the literary skills of the Iowa wrestlers. Kemmerer could fit that description, but I don’t believe he’s in the right timeframe.

It wouldn't be Kemerer because of the "so set on Iowa" part. He was all but committed to Lehigh when he visited Iowa.

 

[lookleft goright]

They do but so do quite a few other coaches...probably the majority of them do. Right now though, there's only one coach that is special. That's Cael...

Cael lives and understands his approach. Other coaches have seen it and are trying to emulate it. There is a difference between the person who is living and understanding something and the person who is trying to mimic it. That is what makes Cael so special. IMHO

 

[PD4thespawn]

I believe it could be JayBo or Grant Gambrell. I know there are many others possible, but these two guys would likely fit the bill.

I was kicked off of HR years ago for suggesting the Emperor's New Clothes perfectly equates to the Iowa wrestling staff. Everyone around Brands can see he is doing things wrong, but they assume it is just themselves who don't really see what they are seeing. Ben Askren has been talking about this for years. The mantra has been "you get what you earn" and the group think over there just marches in step with that nonsensical garbage. You may very well earn much of what you get, but very few get what they earn. It is like Ricky Bobby thinking if the ain't first you're last.

Jay borschel is my guess. Can't remember but something was said on hr that clicked. Either way the tide is definitely out.

 

[AgSurfer]

Jay borschel is my guess. Can't remember but something was said on hr that clicked. Either way the tide is definitely out.

How about Gilman?

 

[The Japanese Whizzer]

I am friends with an Iowa wrestler from the same time period. I have talked to him a lot about this sentiment. They all feel the same way. They don’t hate the Brands, they respect them, they don’t feel that their style is valid, and they all seem to think the Brands ability to recruit has faded.

Penn State is and always will be my favorite team. The years hoping Kolat, Abe, McCoy and the Hughes brothers gave me hope we would soon be champions but that never happened until Cael. So clearly he’s special to all of us. But I think a good Iowa team makes college wrestling more exciting. And I think their fan base (not the loud minority on HR) deserves a good team.

Brands has lost the ability to recruit from the elite HS programs because the word is out that was highlighted in this post by a former wrestler. There is a reason St John, Gilman, Metcalf, Ramos have all been excommunicated from the Iowa community. They went against the “Brand”. No wrestlers outside Bubba Jenkins and maybe Nicky transfer disliked their experience under Cael. Most still praise the Penn State way. And when kids hear about this way, that’s where they want to be.


The most fitting text from my two Iowa friends this morning have been this sentiment going around the Iowa community… “ Iowa women’s sports are carrying the university”

Lots of smoke around the topic of “approach”. Quote from 2015 HawkCentral article:

"What's funny is I feel like I've been putting the work in the whole time, but it's not translating," Dziewa said. "Why isn't it translating? Because you actually have to do it. Just because you work hard in the room doesn't mean it's going to happen."

Whether the original OP was him or not, the puzzle pieces fit together that the approach is off target.

 

[PD4thespawn]

How about Gilman?

No, earlier era. He seemed to be the first person non grata relating Iowa experience about the time hr was circling the wagons to form the inner circle group of insiders. I'm probably way off. Jay was a favorite of mine to watch. He had that easy Ed vibe going on.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Jay borschel is my guess. Can't remember but something was said on hr that clicked. Either way the tide is definitely out.

Borschel has been publicly critical on Twitter in the past for sure.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Lots of smoke around the topic of “approach”. Quote from 2015 HawkCentral article:

"What's funny is I feel like I've been putting the work in the whole time, but it's not translating," Dziewa said. "Why isn't it translating? Because you actually have to do it. Just because you work hard in the room doesn't mean it's going to happen."

Whether the original OP was him or not, the puzzle pieces fit together that the approach is off target.

He was definitely all in on Iowa notwithstanding earlier Rutgers commitment. I distinctly remember his Flo interview after his Iowa commitment. After asking him “why Iowa” - he flat out said something like “where else would I go” - like it was a dumb question to even ask

 

[nerfstate]

Cael lives and understands his approach. Other coaches have seen it and are trying to emulate it. There is a difference between the person who is living and understanding something and the person who is trying to mimic it. That is what makes Cael so special. IMHO

💯
It's gonna take a special person to replicate. Not just someone who knows the culture/system intimately, but one for whom it resonates pretty deeply. I could see Psycho being there someday. DT possibly, but DT and Cael are less alike, IMO.

 

[jack66]

Three different individual national Champs over the last 10 years .. one since 2017.

HR regulars have to choose: either Brands is not recruiting, not developing, or both. Only the looneys can continue to deny the program is in decline. Hanging their hats on the Ferraris could be their last act of desperation.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Borschel has been publicly critical on Twitter in the past for sure.

Interesting "where are they now" with Jay Borschel.

Where are they Now? Jay Borschel - HWC

Jay Borschel, winner of four state titles and a 163-1 record at Linn-Mar, took some time to answer some questions for us. 1. Ok-- You graduated from Iowa in 2010. Went 98-10 while there and capped your senior season undefeated and NCAA Champ. What happened since then? What do you do…

hawkeyewrestlingclub.com

This last question and answer from the article rings true to the post by Walberg but Borschel's takeaway is more positive:

8. Got any interesting Tom Brands stories? I always thought I heard them all until I ask someone new?

I’m sure everyone has heard most stories of relevance, but the memory that sticks with me most is from my freshman year at Virginia Tech. It was probably only the second or third week of school, and I was sitting in Sunday evening study hall when I saw Tom walk in and ask to take me out to the hallway. He educated me on the origins of the word “sin” and how in archery it defined the archer who was not hitting the bulls-eye. I had been sinning those first few weeks, and it was the first time in my life I can remember being humbled in a meaningful way. In the moment I was scared beyond description but ultimately realized I was not living up to expectations and if I wanted to succeed I needed to be constantly inspecting those expectations and goals I had. It is still a great moment for me to think back on and keeps the ego and current state aligned with expectations, priorities, and goals.

I honestly don't think it's Jay. I think it's Josh. Josh began school at Iowa in September 2010, and Walberg became a member of HR in October of 2010.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Three different individual national Champs over the last 10 years .. one since 2017.

HR regulars have to choose: either Brands is not recruiting, not developing, or both. Only the looneys can continue to deny the program is in decline. Hanging their hats on the Ferraris could be their last act of desperation.

And just one who is not a lightweight- St John at 157.

 

[johnstownsteel]

Interesting "where are they now" with Jay Borschel.

Where are they Now? Jay Borschel - HWC

Jay Borschel, winner of four state titles and a 163-1 record at Linn-Mar, took some time to answer some questions for us. 1. Ok-- You graduated from Iowa in 2010. Went 98-10 while there and capped your senior season undefeated and NCAA Champ. What happened since then? What do you do…

hawkeyewrestlingclub.com

This last question and answer from the article rings true to the post by Walberg but Borschel's takeaway is more positive:

8. Got any interesting Tom Brands stories? I always thought I heard them all until I ask someone new?

I’m sure everyone has heard most stories of relevance, but the memory that sticks with me most is from my freshman year at Virginia Tech. It was probably only the second or third week of school, and I was sitting in Sunday evening study hall when I saw Tom walk in and ask to take me out to the hallway. He educated me on the origins of the word “sin” and how in archery it defined the archer who was not hitting the bulls-eye. I had been sinning those first few weeks, and it was the first time in my life I can remember being humbled in a meaningful way. In the moment I was scared beyond description but ultimately realized I was not living up to expectations and if I wanted to succeed I needed to be constantly inspecting those expectations and goals I had. It is still a great moment for me to think back on and keeps the ego and current state aligned with expectations, priorities, and goals.

I honestly don't think it's Jay. I think it's Josh. Josh began school at Iowa in September 2010, and Walberg became a member of HR in October of 2010.

No real reason but I think it's Josh as well..

 

[Pennstate1985]

It's not Josh. Wahlberg wrestled 174. Said so in a 2016 post. Maybe it is Jay. Only other options are Mark Perry or Ethen Lofthouse.

 

[horraybeer]

It's not Josh. Wahlberg wrestled 174. Said so in 2016.

Mike Evans is not impressed.

 

[horraybeer]

Ethan Lofthouse is from Utah.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Ethan Lofthouse is from Utah.

It fits. He started school in 2009. Was better than most but not as good as some. Placed 5th and 7th at nationals. Nice career.

Could be Mike Evans too.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Mike Evans is not impressed.

You're right. I thought Mike was later but he started school in 2010 and Wahlberg signed up at HR in Oct 2010. Wahlberg first post was in 2016, so whomever he is was a lurker for 6 years. If it is Mike, I wonder if he laughs when he sees the, "Mike Evans is not impressed" quotes?

 

[AgSurfer]

Have you guys been reading the ongoing posts on that Hawk thread since wahlberg posted his perspective? Bourbon and PS1985 - I know you guys have stayed in the conversation, but the ongoing comments are like the beginning of a civil war. There’s one group of guys who don’t want Iowa to change anything and another group that wants to see the entire program uprooted and restarted in new ground. I made one post that was sincere and basically a positive tribute to Gable. Of course that’s safe territory and nobody over there is going to get upset over a post like that. It’s definitely a good opportunity for our professional trolls to stir up a hornets nest!

 

[AgSurfer]

You're right. I thought Mike was later but he started school in 2010 and Wahlberg signed up at HR in Oct 2010. Wahlberg first post was in 2016, so whomever he is was a lurker for 6 years. If it is Mike, I wonder if he laughs when he sees the, "Mike Evans is not impressed" quotes?

Would Cael have tried to recruit Evans? I think he has matured a lot since he graduated, but I know he had a reputation as a trouble maker way back then.

 

[Lyons212]

Wow, that's depressing to watch (only saw part 1 so far). It's hard to imagine any wrestlers coming up through the Gable/Brands system achieving their maximum potential in the sport. And any of those wrestlers who go on to be coaches are likely to perpetuate the errors at other programs unless they have some huge paradigm shift after leaving Iowa.

Cael revolutionized coaching the way Dick Fosbury revolutionized the high jump. It's like Brands and the other Gable disciples coaching now are stuck doing the antiquated pre-Fosbury high jump. I guess that's good news for Cael. He's likely to not have much real competition until some of his own pupils become head coaches at other D1 schools.

View embedded media

Gable succeeded for two reasons:
1. All his competitors were doing the same thing as far as coaching. Grind, Grind, Grind. Many of us on this board have this as our wrestling experience from high school
2. Gable had so much more talent than anybody else. One guy broke down, he had somebody else just as good ready to go.

Honestly, with #2, Cael is getting to that point.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Have you guys been reading the ongoing posts on that Hawk thread since wahlberg posted his perspective? Bourbon and PS1985 - I know you guys have stayed in the conversation, but the ongoing comments are like the beginning of a civil war. There’s one group of guys who don’t want Iowa to change anything and another group that wants to see the entire program uprooted and restarted in new ground. I made one post that was sincere and basically a positive tribute to Gable. Of course that’s safe territory and nobody over there is going to get upset over a post like that. It’s definitely a good opportunity for our professional trolls to stir up a hornets nest!

The posters are getting pretty pickley(sp) in there at the moment. I suggest everyone stay out of the civil war. Yes, one is brewing big time. Wahlberg's post has ignited it because it cannot be easily refuted as fanboy BS, and his original post received 37 likes, so there is a large amount of silent agreement over there. The zombie cult is losing the grip on the discussion.

 

[AgSurfer]

Gable succeeded for two reasons:
1. All his competitors were doing the same thing as far as coaching. Grind, Grind, Grind. Many of us on this board have this as our wrestling experience from high school
2. Gable had so much more talent than anybody else. One guy broke down, he had somebody else just as good ready to go.

Honestly, with #2, Cael is getting to that point.

I think Gable and Cael have another quality that isn’t so easy to emulate. They have something that causes their guys to believe in them and, even more importantly, believe in themselves.

Any of you guys who are Civil War buffs know that Robert E Lee had that quality too. His men loved him and were willing to do anything including die because they believed in his leadership.

(I’ll also point out that Jesus had the same effect on his disciples. Empty tombs can do that if you’re not expecting it.)

Personally, I think that’s the part that TnT are missing. Walberg’s post bears that out. When you’re competing at the top level, you have to go out there with 100% confidence that you can win. If you’re having doubts about whether or not you’re good enough, then you’ve already lost the match.

 

[District four]

Have you guys been reading the ongoing posts on that Hawk thread since wahlberg posted his perspective? Bourbon and PS1985 - I know you guys have stayed in the conversation, but the ongoing comments are like the beginning of a civil war. There’s one group of guys who don’t want Iowa to change anything and another group that wants to see the entire program uprooted and restarted in new ground. I made one post that was sincere and basically a positive tribute to Gable. Of course that’s safe territory and nobody over there is going to get upset over a post like that. It’s definitely a good opportunity for our professional trolls to stir up a hornets nest!

Wait a week and a half lol

 

[horraybeer]

Wow - I read through some of the dialogue on that page and you can tell there are a lot of upset Hawk fans out there. That vodka guy is a real internet combatant.

I don't know how to put a specific post from another page into this forum, but if you go to Page 10 of the "How far beyond has Iowa fallen?" thread, you'll see a very articulate post by a guy named wahlberg where he describes his experience in wrestling under Brands. He emphasizes everything we've suspected is wrong with their program.

Don't know how long you've been around Silver but Vodka use to post here. Posts where PSU cheats via steroids, slush fund, over pays for camps and other things. Claims he called multiple compliance offices to tell them what ever. He went off one day with a f bomb tirade (crazy Karen stuff) and got banned. He is a cancer to HR and will just keep running into the wall over and over.

 

[johnstownsteel]

The posters are getting pretty pickley(sp) in there at the moment. I suggest everyone stay out of the civil war. Yes, one is brewing big time. Wahlberg's post has ignited it because it cannot be easily refuted as fanboy BS, and his original post received 37 likes, so there is a large amount of silent agreement over there. The zombie cult is losing the grip on the discussion.

Should I bump the HR refugee thread??

 

[Lyco1990]

I agree the answer is a simple No!

 

[Pennstate1985]

Should I bump the HR refugee thread??

No, let's leave them alone. I know if I was them I would not want one of them coming here.

 

[WildTurk]

I got into deep discussions about the Brands style compared to Caels with them over 10 years ago. I'm sure Turk, MADDEN AND JS remember. I was laughed off their board. Not sure what they thought was funnier, me telling them Caels philosophy would win out, or me telling them back then that Caels next phase (after making PSU the premier college program) would be turning the NLWC into the country's best. Again...they laughed.

It was no doubt the way you approached the topic that got you laughed/kicked off the board. Always has been that way with you.

 

[slushhead]

It was no doubt the way you approached the topic that got you laughed/kicked off the board. Always has been that way with you.

 

[Pennstate1985]

It was no doubt the way you approached the topic that got you laughed/kicked off the board. Always has been that way with you.

Do you still believe in your Tom Brands tag line given how Wahlberg described its effect on the wrestlers?

 

[El-Jefe]

It fits. He started school in 2009. Was better than most but not as good as some. Placed 5th and 7th at nationals. Nice career.

Could be Mike Evans too.

It wasn't Evans. Can you imagine Cael recruiting him after the Cumberland Valley lacrosse helmet incident?

 

[slushhead]

No, let's leave them alone. I know if I was them I would not want one of them coming here.

I haven’t read though that thread, yet, but I don’t feel like I need to. I’m going to disagree with you here. The refugee thread is a service We provide for the unfortunate. By taking in the downtrodden (but reasonable) posters, it also advances our mission to be the most powerful wrestling board on the internets.

Step on the throat, JTS.
(and smile when you hate)

 

[Pennstate1985]

It wasn't Evans. Can you imagine Cael recruiting him after the Cumberland Valley lacrosse helmet incident?

Then it's gotta be Ethen Lofthouse. Who else is left in that time period?

1. Started school fall 2010
2. Joined HR Oct 2010
3. Was better than most but not the best. 5th and 7th at Nationals
4. Graduated 2015.
5. Starts posting on HR 2016
6. States that he wrestled 174
7. He is from Utah and recruited by Cael

 

[johnstownsteel]

It was no doubt the way you approached the topic that got you laughed/kicked off the board.

Yeah...I shouldn't always approach things over there from the correct point of view. I should probably apologize for that...

 

[Chickenman Testa]

It's not Josh. Wahlberg wrestled 174. Said so in a 2016 post. Maybe it is Jay. Only other options are Mark Perry or Ethen Lofthouse.

Wow. Good sleuthing

 

[WildTurk]

Yeah...I shouldn't always approach things over there from the correct point of view. I should probably apologize for that...

All the drinking, trauma and drama has made you forget how you approached things over there. Understandable

 

[johnstownsteel]

All the drinking, trauma and drama has made you forget how you approached things over there. Understandable

This guy just doesn't stop with the references of my son...

 

[PD4thespawn]

It wasn't Evans. Can you imagine Cael recruiting him after the Cumberland Valley lacrosse helmet incident?

I don't know, that Michigan football coach finds jobs among other things. Huh Jefe?