Paterno wasn't proven to be innocent because he was never charged with a crime. He was, however, proven yet again to have acted properly in 2001, which is to say that he acted in accordance with the law.
Juror speaks
- Thread starter LundyPSU
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Paterno wasn't proven to be innocent because he was never charged with a crime. He was, however, proven yet again to have acted properly in 2001, which is to say that he acted in accordance with the law.
The nicest thing I can say about Mike M is that he is a pathetic coward. He should have done more like maybe call 911. Hindsight is a bitch Mike. You and Jerry destroyed a lot of lives. I have as little respect for you as I do Frank Fina and Cynthia Baldwin.
Which was, I think, the juror that spoke.
Wonder how many jurors they spoke to till they found one with the precise comments that fit their needs?
While I don't often agree with you regarding this case, this is a fair point.
I'm not sure it was criminal (especially given the law used). But it was a huge mistake. It gave those arguing for a conviction a point to base that on.
As we add fresh fuel to the decade-long circle-jerk, folks should not forget who - inexplicably - made this entire "Sandusky Affair" into a MM-centered "Penn State Affair"
The dick-toucher who initiated the Circle-Jerk (though MANY others have helped to keep it going)
Mr Frank Flap-Flap-Flap Fina
The dick-toucher who initiated the Circle-Jerk (though MANY others have helped to keep it going)
Mr Frank Flap-Flap-Flap Fina
I believe MMs original purpose in speaking to Tim and Gary was pure. He felt very uncomfortable with keeping what he saw to himself. He felt he should report something very suspicious. I don't know if investigators convinced him that because he did not pursue things more vigorously, boys were abused or his character flaws and actions led him to be coerced. Either way, his story clearly changed and he put Tim (and GS2), a person he knew to be a good man, in position to be destroyed by the OAG.
It is more than just a little disingenuous for any of MMs relatives to come on here and attack Tim Curley's character. After all, these are people who had contemporaneous knowledge of what Mike witnessed and did nothing at all. Was it because MM didn't report anything that TC could sink his teeth into or because no one wanted to jeopardize Mike's coaching future at PSU?Either way, not people who should be pointing fingers at others.
Admittedly, since it took so long and so many failed (LE, TSM,CYS, DPW CCDA, PSU3) there are no heroes in this saga. IMO it is more plausible that no one thought JS was a pedophile and when the shit hit the fan, no one wanted to be cannon fodder.
Boys and Girls - - - - it's over
The CSS trials were the last chance to open any doors on all this crap.
It's done
The 2nd Mile/JR/BH? It's F-ing over. They won.
Frank F, McGettigan, Beemer and the entire band of dick-touching bastards in the OAG? Is F-ing over. They won.
Why did they win? Lots of reasons - - - none more so than the fact that damn near no one gave a ****. Every principal involved - every person in a position of influence - every one:
Was only interested in what served their self-interest. Every damn one of them - from the PSU BOT to the OAG and EVERYONE in between.
Not one, not one intelligent person with a commitment to pursue "what was right".
NOT ONE.
I guess that's a snapshot of a broader societal issue - - - - though that's no condolence.
And damn near no one cared - - - not about anything more important than "football" anyway.
That entire affair is OVER - as far as any Justice or "truth" is concerned........ all that's left is some carcasses to be picked over.
- - - - - - - -
Maybe, maybe there is still time to do something about the issues at PSU - - - about wresting control of the University out of the clutches of a band of c$ck-s$cking Scoundrels.
"Early Returns" aren't good.
Thus far:
Damn near no one cares about that either - aside from (gee, where do we see this before?) a band of one-trick ponies who only care about - - - - go ahead, take a guess
- - - "football".....Either "football", or their (and their "buddies") self-interests....... which sometimes are kind of the same thing.
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As I said in the trial thread, Tim was an embarrassment. He was absolutely pathetic on the stand.
I'm sure he is concerned about your assessment. You certainly have lifetime experience with being an embarrassment.
Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Wouldn't surprise me.
Speaking of which, no wonder that poor kid was screwed up.
I agree that "it" is essentially all over except for the weeping and nashing of teeth. For me, that doesn't mean that I have to read posts from the scum of the earth without a challenge.Boys and Girls - - - - it's over
The CSS trials were the last chance to open any doors on all this crap.
It's done
The 2nd Mile/JR/BH? It's F-ing over. They won.
Frank F, McGettigan, Beemer and the entire band of dick-touching bastards in the OAG? Is F-ing over. They won.
Why did they win? Lots of reasons - - - none more so than the fact that damn near no one gave a ****. Damn near no one cared - - - not about anything more important than "football" anyway.
That entire affair is OVER - as far as any Justice or "truth" is concerned........ all that's left is some carcasses to be picked over.
Maybe, maybe there is still time to do something about the issues at PSU - - - about wresting control of the University out of the clutches of a band of c$ck-s$cking Scoundrels.
"Early Returns" aren't good. Thus far - Damn near no one cares about that either - aside from (gee, where do we see this before?) a band of one-trick ponies who only care about - - - - go ahead, take a guess
After a 37 year career as a HS coach and AD....I could tell you stories that you wouldn't believe about parents and how they screw up their kids. I must say however, that it never occurred to me that even Joe had to put up with the Suheys and Surmas.
Do you think he was being honest when he said over and over again that he "did not recall" when asked questions on the stand? The jury didn't.
You are so right Marshall. Question for Towny. At what point did Mike tell your F.I.L that he lied to him? Mike told John twice moments after he saw JS in the shower with a boy that he saw nothing more than that and saw nothing sexual.
So when did Mike say Dad, I lied to you and I really did see JS sexually abusing the boy in the shower? No doubt he was distraught by not being able to review those recruiting tapes and then missing the ending of Rudy and perhaps that caused him to unintentionally lie to his father?
To refresh you on your F.I.L. testimony, here it is.
Mike. - ”“I just saw something, I saw Coach Sandusky in the shower with a young boy,”
John - “I asked him if he had seen anal sex.. anything.. penetration..sodomy
Mike - “No, I didn’t actually see that”
John - asked again,... you didn’t witness... ANYTHING ELSE you can verify?”
Mike - AGAIN said NO.
So just trying to see when he actually told his father he lied to him.
Was it after he played in the 2nd Mile golf events?
Was it after he played in the flag football games?
Was it after he told Chris Houser a.k.a HowardStern about walking in on Jerry in the shower with a boy but didn't witness anything sexual?
Was it after he sent a Dick pic to the co-ed?
Was it after he told the police the incident was in 2002?
Was it after he testified he was watching Rudy?
Just trying to get a timeline and truth in the matter. TIA for always wanting to get the truth out.
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If TC had an attorney and had responded in that fashion to the Grand Jury, perhaps he would not have been charged with perjury. I'd love to see you skewered about something that happened 16 years ago. I think juries should be very suspicious of individuals who claim to have a clear memory of what happened 16 years back.
He apparently was the only one with that issue. If you give most people 5.5 years to think back on something they can give you at least an overview of what happened. Tim couldn't even do that.
Have to kind of agree Tim and Gary don't strike me as very credible either but then neither do MM, his Dad or Jack R. especially MM and Jack R.
So how much can a judge "hammer" them on a Misdemeanor and didn't Tim already say he wasn't getting jail time? So I'm guessing that some judgements have already been reached.
So you're proud of something that you're not. No surprise since you've likely accomplished nothing.
Why am I a pox on PSU? JVP was/is one of the people outside of my own family that I most admire and respect. Some didn't like him while he was coaching. No biggie to me. I muttered my share of 'wtf's over his on-field decisions and how long he stayed myself while he was active. But no one, imo, has or had any right to question his integrity or his values or his intentions wrt academics, PSU, football, family, etc. There was absolutely nothing over the course of his career to ever challenge those!
But we all knew he was wrongly vilified in the media and by our own BOT in Nov. 2011 and after. So people like me wanted to make sure we supported, however we could, what we knew to be the right thing to do for the man and his family. JVP's legacy, if managed correctly by PSU and his family, is extremely valuable to the school! I call his legacy and career the best goodwill asset a school like PSU could have. Success With Honor was and still should be THE model for how to run an athletic program. PSU is doing that, just without mentioning JVP. But without JVP, it's just another school's attempt at branding and PR. We could be pointing to decades of being far ahead of the curve if we had more true servant leadership in the OGBOT. And some who weren't afraid of their association with TSM and JS being exposed if someone looked behind the curtain.
So call me a pox if that makes you feel better about not liking or respecting JVP. Imo, those who don't help to uphold his outstanding body of work and promote what should be the public view of his legacy, associating it with PSU, and making it a true point of pride, are the pox on PSU. That's you, JJ, McCue, and the OGBOT, to get the count started. Proud company indeed, Mich. I like my team better.
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Tim's responses may have been more genuine than Gary's
I think they were both FOS and apparently so did the jury. With that being said, I was surprised to see a conviction because I still feel that the prosecution didn't prove their case. But I guess they did have to as it seems Spanier screwed himself with his own damning email.
I don't care if MM saw Jerry playing checkers with the kid on the shower floor......undeniable facts, they were both alone with each other naked, correct???? that being said....I don't blame MM for freaking out and not knowing what to do.....I don't blame his dad or Dranov telling him to go to Joe (not totally unreasonable based on who Joe was...and it was MM's boss) after grilling Mike. I don't even blame Joe for reporting it to Tim....that's what he should've done (obviously, an investigation indeed occurred).
However, who I do blame is.....those admins for not effin reporting it....with knowledge of the 98 incident....then Jerry effin decides to be alone in a shower, naked with a boy on a random Friday night in the middle of winter.....again, I don't care if any physical contact didn't occurred whatsoever......HUGE red flags, loud sirens should be going off in everyone's head.
yeah yeah...unauthenticated emails, Rakyvotz/2nd mile, BOT, Freeh, Corbett.....no doubt there was some shady sh*t going on, and there's a story there.....but at the end of the effin day....who the f**k is naked in a shower alone with a young boy.....TWICE!
i'm done making excuses for these idiots......I know they knew the man for 30 years, i'm sure that played a part....but after the 98 incident....the 01 incident needed to be reported to at the very least DPW....
i'm so freakin frustrated with this whole mess.
plus....then there's the whole Paterno thing.....i have no idea what to think of that whole situation....the 98 revelation is concerning me. all quiet on the Paterno family front on twitter. no statements regarding what Curley said....nothing. really really struggling with it.
It's as believable as saying "I would have said.....". It's 16 years after the fact.
Just sayin....MM was a dick in HS...His dad is an arrogant prick...Curley is the same way and has been his whole life too. That's how ALL of these "men" and I use that term loosely..found themselves in this situation. They are all people that thought their $h1t didn't stink and they were above reproach.
Is there a "dislike" button for these kinds of posts? The fact that someone didn't attend college doesn't mean they aren't smart, it means that they didn't have the money or family, for the most part.
I don't like or agree with her comments. It sounds like she wanted to find someone guilty from the get-go. But that isn't a factor in her education level.
email and notes. DPW was on the table, Courtney advised them to report, they decide not to report. I said at the time, it made sense why Tim and Gary had a plea agreement. Tough to convince a jury they are not guilty on EWOC.
Personally, I think that email also really hurt Spanier. However, I recognize the grey area they were in. People say "if you suspect something, report it." That is naeve. Everytime I hear a married person lose their temper at their spouse I should report it as suspected abuse? Its ridiculous. At some point, you've got to break it off and say I am going to A) report it or B) not report it.
They knew the report MM gave on JS was in that grey area. They knew that MM was a horrible witness (lest it would have been directly reported by Dad or Dranov). They also knew that reporting JS was going to be harmful to TSM, supporters of TSM and PSU...even if he were found innocent like he was in 1998. So they reported it to TSM which would have been the repository for all things JS related and see if they had information that would allow them to connect the dots.
Bad move.
Criminal? tough call. I get it. Certainly not worth $200,000,000 in damages though.
And to JVP? He did exactly as he should have done.
How many times can that phrase be repeated......while ignoring the undisputed (TTBOMK) fact that TC took a report to the 2nd Mile - and JR - that had JR saying (paraphrasing):
"If you're telling me JS is a pedo, you're bat-shit crazy"
And led to JR telling JS (again, TTBOMK, this is undisputed):
"Wear swim trunks".
And still?
Good Lord....one can only
Well if Towny is MM, that would explain why he can't find a job.
His resume writing skills and cover letters are probably just as bad. LOL.
My read as well, from an emotional standpoint. From a logical and legal standpoint, the law doesn't match the charge both in terms of responsibility to supervise children (on the prosecution) and statute of limitations (on the judge).
How many times can that phrase be repeated......while ignoring the undisputed (TTBOMK) fact that TC took a report to the 2nd Mile - and JR - that had JR saying (paraphrasing):
"If you're telling me JS is a pedo, you're bat-shit crazy"
And led to JR telling JS (again, TTBOMK, this is undisputed):
"Wear swim trunks".
And still?
Good Lord....one can only
JR saying(at easd
good lord?
i'll keep repeating it....it didn't matter if the MM incident was sexual or simply horseplay..... armed with the knowledge of 1998, those guys couldn’t possibly hear about the new accusations in 01, and then act with anything less than complete and immediate outrage.
I hear you about being frustrated. Some of my frustration is that it is hard to completely separate what we know now and have learned since 2011 with what people thought in 2001. It is this 'benefit of hindsight thing' that I need to constantly remind myself about when thinking about actions taken or not taken.
I think of '98 this way, and I've learned about 'Pillar of the Community' perps more as I read Nellie and WenSilver and others who are genuinely trying to educate us.... the '98 investigation of JS being not charged, and the way that incident was handled by LE and CYS, etc. does an incredible amount of harm wrt '01. Imo, as difficult as it was for any untrained people who knew JS to believe that he had any ill intentions toward young boys, that mere thought became completely unbelievable after the accusation and the official 'nothing to see here' approach taken by LE and people trained in how to handle these things. (I realize there were dissenting opinions that were shoved aside by the ultimate decision makers. I do not expect an untrained person to grasp all of that, though). So, JS is a pillar of the community, another similar incident and accusation comes around, you're not trained in what this all potentially means, so you say to yourself, 'same stuff, different day, it will be found to be nothing again, no doubt.' So your instant bias is toward the same outcome as before - nothing to see here about JS - and you're less inclined to go after it with the rigor that it needed.
BUT.... that's where I give the PSU3 a big pass on all this - they told Raykovitz about it. And no matter what they told him, Raykovitz was the trained person who knew better than to simply slough off another possibly unfounded accusation. Raykovitz dropped the ball, far more than the PSU3 did. He knew better. The other guys were basing their actions on what the experts had done in a previous case. They made a judgment call based on the past action taken. Had '98 been handled appropriately, '01 doesn't happen, and the PSU3 and McQ and JVP are never involved.... as they should not have had to have been!
The Pillar of the Community angle is important. It clouds our thinking, especially those of us who are not pros, and builds in a bias that is tough to overcome. That is why taking it to a trained professional in either a CYS or a TSM or directly to LE is critical (I have learned). People like me don't know what we don't know when it comes to something this complex. We need to turn to others for help, and we need to be able to trust that they will do the right things to investigate. In '01, Raykovitz clearly did not. In '98, Harmon and CYS did not.
All just my opinion and how I think about what may have been the mindsets of good people who made mistakes.
Every time I hear people bash Joe in relation to this whole mess, I just go back to this from November 5, 2011:
"Penn State head football coach Joe Paterno did the right thing and reported an eye-witness report of child sex abuse by Jerry Sandusky in the football locker room in 2002, according to the indictment released this morning by the state Attorney General.
The sources said the deputy state prosecutor handling the case said that Paterno did the right thing, and handled himself appropriately in 2002 and during the three-year investigation that ended Friday."
But the media thinks otherwise, so let's go with that. ???????????
"Penn State head football coach Joe Paterno did the right thing and reported an eye-witness report of child sex abuse by Jerry Sandusky in the football locker room in 2002, according to the indictment released this morning by the state Attorney General.
The sources said the deputy state prosecutor handling the case said that Paterno did the right thing, and handled himself appropriately in 2002 and during the three-year investigation that ended Friday."
But the media thinks otherwise, so let's go with that. ???????????
i appreciate your response, and I get your theory....but if you weren't a PSU fan....I don't think you'd be saying much of this.
don't get me wrong, i'm not excusing Raykovitz....but unfortunately, he wasn't on trial. also, he didn't have executive power in the situation....C/S/S did
