New Car Help: Gas vs Hybrid vs Plug-in Hybrid

[PSU2UNC]

BMW SUV. What would you recommend for a used one? They seem to rate pretty well in Consumer Reports.

I'm not an SUV guy. For higher end SUVs, I've driven (gf's prior cars) the mid sized Merc SUV (forget the name) and the Porsche Cayenne. Both drove very nicely for SUVs (but again not an SUV guy) with the Porsche being significantly nicer (with higher price tag, obviously)

I have a good friend who drives a BMW X5 and really likes it. I've never driven it but my experience with BMWs in general (I'm on my third coupe) is that they are excellent cars. I've had very little repair issues and I love the way they drive.

 

[Agoodnap]

Which vehicles are you looking at? Most hybrids start the engine with the electric motor (the Prius type). Dead batteries mean it can't start (and the gas engine can't recharge because it won't start). They also don't have a traditional transmission (which is a big plus from a reliability standpoint). There are other hybrids that use the electric motor to boost power for the smaller engines (the Toyota truck types) and then feed into a regular transmission. So you need to see how the drive train is actually set up.

Even in all this there's 2 main types of batteries - NiMH and lithium. NiMH last much, much longer and are more robust (and don't catch fire), but lithium are lighter and provide better range (and if they catch fire are nasty, nasty, nasty). The biggest impact on battery reliability involves its cooling system and placement. Toyota added simple cleanable air filters and battery longevity went up significantly. They put the batteries inside the cabin under the back seat and that also made a big improvement. These are small things that make a big impact and are worth looking for. Also, Toyota still uses a lot of NiMH battery packs for reliability purposes, although when they want range for a model they will use lithium.

Also, every car still has a 12V battery. It does not start the car, it powers the computers, and if it dies the car won't start.

Post a couple of vehicles you're considering and we can start looking at their powertrains and other details. Even among the types you listed there are significant differences.

Thanks for answering my question. I was assuming (hoping) that the gas engine had a separate battery that is only used to start and supply limited electric to the vehicle when needed and that the electric motor had either a standalone electric system (plug-in) or shared the alternator for charging. That was a bad assumption and why I asked the question. So, a Hybrid presents two systems to break which will leave you stranded instead of one. That sucks.

I'm going to look at most/all small to mid size SUV's and boil it down to about three for the wife to choose. She would never visit more than a few dealers so I may as well do the initial legwork without her. When I've settled on the vehicles I take her to test drive each of the vehicles on the same day, back to back. I won't go on the test drive so she has to decide on her own which one she wants.

I started my search with Ford Escape, Toyota RAV4, and Honda CRV.

 

[Obliviax]

@Agoodnap One of the things that has been helpful to me is to watch the various review videos on Youtube. I especially like this husband/wife combo that reviews cars. You can go back years. They call themselves "Motormouth". He is more performance-oriented: acceleration, performance, steering. She is more aesthetic, ride, and safety. Overall, you get a good, balanced review. This is the video that convinced me to get this particular car (GLB).

 

[jjw165]

Thanks for answering my question. I was assuming (hoping) that the gas engine had a separate battery that is only used to start and supply limited electric to the vehicle when needed and that the electric motor had either a standalone electric system (plug-in) or shared the alternator for charging. That was a bad assumption and why I asked the question. So, a Hybrid presents two systems to break which will leave you stranded instead of one. That sucks.

I'm going to look at most/all small to mid size SUV's and boil it down to about three for the wife to choose. She would never visit more than a few dealers so I may as well do the initial legwork without her. When I've settled on the vehicles I take her to test drive each of the vehicles on the same day, back to back. I won't go on the test drive so she has to decide on her own which one she wants.

I started my search with Ford Escape, Toyota RAV4, and Honda CRV.

Mazda cx-5 is in the same SUV segment as those three you picked out and has been ranked the best small SUV in certain years past. Worth a look 👀.

 

[jjw165]

@Agoodnap One of the things that has been helpful to me is to watch the various review videos on Youtube. I especially like this husband/wife combo that reviews cars. You can go back years. They call themselves "Motormouth". He is more performance-oriented: acceleration, performance, steering. She is more aesthetic, ride, and safety. Overall, you get a good, balanced review. This is the video that convinced me to get this particular car (GLB).

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I think the way to buy the GLB is the way you did it — used. The new ones can start out at $38-39k for a base model. Adding options can easily get you into the mid high forties. The car is built off the entry level SUV platform from the Mercedes GLA. There have been some reliability issues as well.

 

[Obliviax]

I think the way to buy the GLB is the way you did it — used. The new ones can start out at $38-39k for a base model. Adding options can easily get you into the mid high forties. The car is built off the entry level SUV platform from the Mercedes GLA. There have been some reliability issues as well.

My car, new, pushed $45k in 2000. It is still under warranty. It has the third row seating and the ambient light package which looks very cool.

My understanding is that the GLC is the most popular MB SUV in the world. But it was getting long of tooth. So they decided to start the multi-year plan to replace it. The GLC was designed as rear wheel. The GLB is designed to have front-wheel drive. Although both have AWD (4-matic) the primary is still either front or rear. The computer controls the drive train as needed. Moving it to front wheel, they decided to make the top and back more bulbous and were able to get in an optional third row. As they were releasing it, the GLC was STILL their best selling model so they decided to release the GLB as an add on and not a replacement of the GLC. The GLA is a smaller car. One of the things I really like is that the rear seats can be adjusted up and back. So if you need more storage you can move it up. If you want more leg room, you move it back. Like all Mercedes, it is butter smooth. It can be a little under power from stop to second gear. However, it is surprisingly peppy when you go from second gear on. 45 to 65 acceleration is almost shocking for the engine it has. I am getting just over 31 mpg on the highway.

 

[BOSCO2]

Thanks for answering my question. I was assuming (hoping) that the gas engine had a separate battery that is only used to start and supply limited electric to the vehicle when needed and that the electric motor had either a standalone electric system (plug-in) or shared the alternator for charging. That was a bad assumption and why I asked the question. So, a Hybrid presents two systems to break which will leave you stranded instead of one. That sucks.

I'm going to look at most/all small to mid size SUV's and boil it down to about three for the wife to choose. She would never visit more than a few dealers so I may as well do the initial legwork without her. When I've settled on the vehicles I take her to test drive each of the vehicles on the same day, back to back. I won't go on the test drive so she has to decide on her own which one she wants.

I started my search with Ford Escape, Toyota RAV4, and Honda CRV.

I only know that I've had 2 Hyundai Sonata Hybrids in a row and both had a separate battery from the hybrid ones.

 

[bdgan]

As much as the French look stupid with many of their policies they adopted a national reliance on nuclear power. The U.S. could shore up the grid for generations to come by a Federal plan to strategically locate 20 to 30 nuclear plants, and finance them, along with a standard plant design arrived at by a review of the couple nuclear plants being built I believe in Georgia(?).

To be fair France went heavy on nuclear because they have limited fossil fuels of their own. They have historically imported from Russia & Norway.

But your point is fair. The energy has to come from somewhere.

 

[91Joe95]

I only know that I've had 2 Hyundai Sonata Hybrids in a row and both had a separate battery from the hybrid ones.

That's to power the computers and other electronics in the car. I'm pretty sure there is a law that prevents those items from being powered (even step down powered) from the high voltage and high amp hybrid battery pack for safety reasons.

 

[91Joe95]

Mazda cx-5 is in the same SUV segment as those three you picked out and has been ranked the best small SUV in certain years past. Worth a look 👀.

I'll second Mazda. Parents just bought one last year and love it. It's a nice vehicle, and they're starting to partner with Toyota. Basic advice on new car buying, if going for longevity and reliability, try to avoid turbos (not a lot of options these days) and cvt transmissions unless the cvt was built by Honda or Toyota. They actually put a 1st gear in the gearbox that takes a lot of the stress away from the chains inside it.

 

[91Joe95]

Thanks for answering my question. I was assuming (hoping) that the gas engine had a separate battery that is only used to start and supply limited electric to the vehicle when needed and that the electric motor had either a standalone electric system (plug-in) or shared the alternator for charging. That was a bad assumption and why I asked the question. So, a Hybrid presents two systems to break which will leave you stranded instead of one. That sucks.

I'm going to look at most/all small to mid size SUV's and boil it down to about three for the wife to choose. She would never visit more than a few dealers so I may as well do the initial legwork without her. When I've settled on the vehicles I take her to test drive each of the vehicles on the same day, back to back. I won't go on the test drive so she has to decide on her own which one she wants.

I started my search with Ford Escape, Toyota RAV4, and Honda CRV.

Yes and no on complexity. Yes hybrid is inherently more complex. However, with some hybrid designs you completely eliminate things like the starter, alternator, and transmission as the electric motor replaces them and is much more robust. When it comes to hybrids, it's really the battery pack you need to worry about. If it has a good cooling system it should be fine. And of course, resale values tend to tank even if the battery is reliable.

 

[Obliviax]

..and if you have an ICE but want to cool parking spaces, you can get one of these on Amazon

 

[Wandering Spectator]

So how much does it cost, on the average, to travel 100 miles?
34.6 x $0.57 = $19+?? ....... seems too high 🤷‍♀️..... is this right?

For those numbers, that is the correct math. That’s why I say you’re crazy if you buy an EV and can’t charge at home the vast majority of the time. If you want to do it in the name of saving the planet, go for it, but even that’s not proven.

I charge at home the vast majority of the time. My rate is $0.08 per kWh for charging after 11pm. My kWh per mile varies (just like mpg varies) Yesterday I drove 74 miles and charged 31.6 kWh. That math equals about 42.52 kWh for every 100 miles. So my “fuel” cost for 100 miles would be about $3.40.

My BMW would have cost about $16 at current gas prices. 25mpg = 4 gallons at $3.99 per gallon.

 

[step.eng69]

For those numbers, that is the correct math. That’s why I say you’re crazy if you buy an EV and can’t charge at home the vast majority of the time. If you want to do it in the name of saving the planet, go for it, but even that’s not proven.

I charge at home the vast majority of the time. My rate is $0.08 per kWh for charging after 11pm. My kWh per mile varies (just like mpg varies) Yesterday I drove 74 miles and charged 31.6 kWh. That math equals about 42.52 kWh for every 100 miles. So my “fuel” cost for 100 miles would be about $3.40.

My BMW would have cost about $16 at current gas prices. 25mpg = 4 gallons at $3.99 per gallon.

Thanks Spectator.........
$16 is about the amount I would pay for 100 miles @ town mileage in my Chrysler 300 limited.

 

[Wandering Spectator]

Thanks Spectator.........
$16 is about the amount I would pay for 100 miles @ town mileage in my Chrysler 300 limited.

In addition, no other ICE related maintenance either. In AZ, I didn’t have to pay an extra EV registration fee, but that’s coming. They are expecting to charge $135 per year. That seems reasonable to recapture the average gas tax loss.

 

[PSU Lion 2000]

I drive a 2015 Toyota Avalon Hybrid that I bought new. It has been great for me. 183k miles in 9.5 years. Still on the original brakes! Oil changes every 10k miles. New tires every 60k or so. Never had an issue with anything. I drive a bit fast so my mileage isn't at the EPA estimates of 40/39. I get about 35mpg in summer and 34mpg in winter. That's down from about 39-40 when I first got the car. Not sure if that's due to battery degradation, but if so, not too bad.

 

[Obliviax]

 

[Obliviax]

So, despite the emotion, driverless cars are currently about 4.77 times less likely to crash than manually driven cars.

 

[Obliviax]

In addition, no other ICE related maintenance either. In AZ, I didn’t have to pay an extra EV registration fee, but that’s coming. They are expecting to charge $135 per year. That seems reasonable to recapture the average gas tax loss.

 

[91Joe95]

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One of those two fuel prices has the ability to drop fairly quickly in the not too distant future.

 

[Obliviax]

New video of self-driving update from Tesla. BTW, I downloaded Waymo today. Waymo is a ride-sharing service using only self-driving cars. it is only available in SFO but is expanding to Austin and LA soon.

 

[Wandering Spectator]

New video of self-driving update from Tesla. BTW, I downloaded Waymo today. Waymo is a ride-sharing service using only self-driving cars. it is only available in SFO but is expanding to Austin and LA soon.

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Waymo is in PHX. It's been here for quite a while. I downloaded the app a couple of years ago, but still haven't taken a ride. It was limited in the area it covered, but it continues to add areas here in the Valley. My buddy uses it whenever he can. He loves it and the bonus is, that it's usually cheaper than Uber/Lyft and you don't have to have awkward conversations with the driver.

 

[Obliviax]

Waymo is in PHX. It's been here for quite a while. I downloaded the app a couple of years ago, but still haven't taken a ride. It was limited in the area it covered, but it continues to add areas here in the Valley. My buddy uses it whenever he can. He loves it and the bonus is, that it's usually cheaper than Uber/Lyft and you don't have to have awkward conversations with the driver.

I've read that over half the price of Uber/Lyft is the driver. So if you eliminate the driver....it will cost you 5% less.

 

[Katatonic]

There's a reason why demand for HEVs (traditional hybrids) have been surging.

Depending on your driving pattern and local gas prices, should recoup the initial extra $1k-2k cost over a 2-3 year period.

PHEVs cost considerably more, so unless eligible for the IRA credit, doesn't make much financial sense, and unlike most HEVs, tend to be less reliable due to basically having 2 separate powertrains.

But if can get a great deal on ICE, that may be the most prudent financial move.

I was shocked to see, in the report I linked above, that Mercedes, Subaru, Audi and Honda were all ranked worse than average. This is especially true of Audi. I've never owned an Audi and was set to buy a Q5 until my wife and I test-drove it. We weren't 100 yards away when my wife said "Nope". We ended up getting the MB GLB250.

Honda and Acura went through a rough period as they introduced numerous new powertrains/powertrain components, but have since been climbing back up (more Honda than Acura) as they work out the kinks.

While not yet reflected in the rankings, Toyota/Lexus have been having issues with newer models, including needing to do engine replacements.

The key isn't so much which automaker/brand, but to know what components (engines, transmissions, etc) to stay away from.

The CX-5 is reliable because its engine/transmission has been around for a long time.

That's generally how Toyota and Buick have tended to do well in reliability rankings - keeping powertrains around for a long time.

And oh, BEV range also gets reduced significantly by extreme heat (not to mention AC use) which is becoming more common in certain areas of the country (that's why coastal California is just about prime climate for BEVs).

 

[Obliviax]

In 2024, Tesla's Model Y has been recognized as the most American-made vehicle, with 87.5% of its parts sourced from the U.S. and Canada. This achievement has sparked discussions online, with many users highlighting Tesla's significant contribution to American manufacturing. The Model Y's ranking at the top of the list was a notable achievement, surpassing traditional American car brands and prompting discussions about the changing landscape of American-made vehicles. Tesla's dominance in the list of American-made vehicles was also noted, with the Model S and Model X also landing in the top 10. This recognition has led to a debate among users, with some expressing pride in Tesla's American manufacturing, while others maintain that traditional American car brands like Ford still hold the title of the most American vehicle.

 

[91Joe95]

There's a reason why demand for HEVs (traditional hybrids) have been surging.

Depending on your driving pattern and local gas prices, should recoup the initial extra $1k-2k cost over a 2-3 year period.

PHEVs cost considerably more, so unless eligible for the IRA credit, doesn't make much financial sense, and unlike most HEVs, tend to be less reliable due to basically having 2 separate powertrains.

But if can get a great deal on ICE, that may be the most prudent financial move.




Honda and Acura went through a rough period as they introduced numerous new powertrains/powertrain components, but have since been climbing back up (more Honda than Acura) as they work out the kinks.

While not yet reflected in the rankings, Toyota/Lexus have been having issues with newer models, including needing to do engine replacements.

The key isn't so much which automaker/brand, but to know what components (engines, transmissions, etc) to stay away from.

The CX-5 is reliable because its engine/transmission has been around for a long time.

That's generally how Toyota and Buick have tended to do well in reliability rankings - keeping powertrains around for a long time.

And oh, BEV range also gets reduced significantly by extreme heat (not to mention AC use) which is becoming more common in certain areas of the country (that's why coastal California is just about prime climate for BEVs).

Toyota suffered from a manufacturing problem where metal shavings got left in the engines. It's a shame because design wise they're still good.

 

[Wandering Spectator]

And you are likely safer taking a Waymo…

Ride-share driver accused of assaulting passenger Police say a man was sexually assaulted during a ride-share ride in Luzerne County.
https://www.wnep.com/mobile/article...unty/523-4920e1c8-0f9b-4533-8ff7-91d96532fa0c

 

[Obliviax]

Telsa launches ASS

 

[Katatonic]

Toyota suffered from a manufacturing problem where metal shavings got left in the engines. It's a shame because design wise they're still good.

While that's the word from Toyota, we'll just have to wait and see.

The first iteration of the engine had issues when the LS500 launched where there were owners that had to have their engines rebuilt and some had the rebuilt engine implode.

 

[Obliviax]

I have my fingers crossed. Almost a year in and it’s the best car I’ve ever owned. I was a BMW guy for decades with the occasional non-BMW thrown in every so often.

Time will tell for me.

Tesla blew everybody away today with some new directional releases. The self driving car and van. Musk said that, if everyone goes to self driving cars, you can just summon a car like Uber without the driver. In that world, you eliminate:

• Garages
• Parking (said that a large percentage of every city is parking lots
• drivers
• insurance
• car purchase costs
• car loans and interest
• a substantial piece of air pollution
• mitigated traffic jams
• DUIs and driving while distracted
• If everyone adopts self-driving, you can also get rid of stop signs and traffic lights.

Here is the video

 

[Gitzit]

I would keep an extra gas engine vehicle in case something happens to the power grid.

 

[Kasparaitis]

I would keep an extra gas engine vehicle in case something happens to the power grid.

Yeah, Microsoft is willing to restart Three Mile Island so that kind of gives you a hint of where we are in the forecasted energy requirements vs generation capacity equation. Also, I actually like to drive. Keep the music but give me a Lamborghini or Ferrari like Crockett or Magnum.

 

[Agoodnap]

Yeah, Microsoft is willing to restart Three Mile Island so that kind of gives you a hint of where we are in the forecasted energy requirements vs generation capacity equation. Also, I actually like to drive. Keep the music but give me a Lamborghini or Ferrari like Crockett or Magnum.

Microsoft is doing this so that they can claim to be carbon-free in their data-centers.

 

[Kasparaitis]

Microsoft is doing this so that they can claim to be carbon-free in their data-centers.

No. Microsoft is doing this because they need guaranteed, reliable energy to support their business model.

 

[Agoodnap]

No. Microsoft is doing this because they need guaranteed, reliable energy to support their business model.

You should probably study up on long distance transmission of power after you've given yourself a geography lesson on the locations of Microsoft's data centers and the location of TMI.

 

[Kasparaitis]

You should probably study up on long distance transmission of power after you've given yourself a geography lesson on the locations of Microsoft's data centers and the location of TMI.

I said what I said. We’ll see who is proven right.

 

[Kasparaitis]

I said what I said. We’ll see who is proven right.

This is from MIT. I’ve heard they have some smart people:

Microsoft will be the one benefiting, as its long-term power purchase agreement would secure it enough energy to power roughly 800,000 homes every year. Except in this case, it’ll be used to help run the company’s data center infrastructure in the region.