I've seen the Iowa guys you're talking about. Especially considering how Graham Spanier's charge that was specifically for "conspiracy" was thrown out even by a Pennsylvania jury under the influence of numbnuts PA judges, people still using "Pedo State" are truly the dumbest of the dumb. But that's also an Iowa Hawkeye board. They can be as dumb on there as they wanna be. It's theirs.
Spencer Lee forfeiting out the rest of the tourney.
- Thread starter PSUWrestlingFanSince2011
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Guys like McIlravy wrestled so amazingly they're why I speak of Gable with reverence.
Iowa wrestling now is a shell of what it was in the 90s IMO. Not just in results, but in style and philosophy of wrestling.
Kerk wrestled injured to get to that third place match though.
True, because PSU needed the points for the team title. Once that was clinched he MFFed. Iowa did not need Lee's points for a team trophy, hell, being honest, Iowa could care less if they finished 2nd, 3rd or 4th.
Why do kids from ither teams wrestle the backdraws at all then?
You know when MFFs are bad for the sport? It is when they occur on the front side of the bracket. Coach wants to get a wrestler a couple of matches of work and then MFFs out of the rest of the tournament. That results in forfeits in quarter or semis and sometimes finals which really sucks for the fans. It really cheapens a championship.
When they occur on the backside of the bracket, not nearly the impact. That is why guys MFFing in the medals rounds of NCAA's is not really a big deal.
MFFs are occuring in greater numbers because the wrestlers are putting themselves first and looking our for their best interest. Concern for the wrestler's health is also why Cael is reducing the number of tournaments on the schedule because wrestling 4 to 6 matches in a day increases the chances of being injured.
The successful programs, in any sport are the ones who have figured out that the "embracing the grind" mentality is a good way to get your athletes hurt and burnt out. Cael's secret is not fun, it is mastering recovery and mental health approach.
Cael just had 2 wrestlers wrestle back for 3rd. Neither of them "healthy".
We can argue the merits of wrestling back or not wrestling back based on injuries. But is it your contention that Cael simply wasn't looking out for Beau and Shayne's best interest?
With all due respect you can't compare the 2.
Kerk wrestled while injured to clinch the team title. Then was up all night from the pain in his shoulder from that injury and had to MFF out.
Spencer MFF'd out without his team having any placement trophy secured. He MFF'd out to avoid risking injury at the expense of his team's goals. His teammates showed the grit and bailed HIM out.
Clearly, "the next best thing" is not good enough for Spencer Lee. Those crumbs are for the rest of his teammates and coaching staff to pick up off the mat.
None of you guys know what kind of injuries he's dealing with. You just want to pile on because he spurned your team and went to Iowa. There's no need to kick him while he's down or question his loyalty to his team. He's sacrificed his body for them for years. What other wrestler has his kind of injury history? 3 ACL tears and a torn Labrum. And that's only what's currently public.
The only reason he was on the mat this year was for a chance at 4. Once that was gone, the risk/reward ratio changed and he pulled out. He already lost. It's pathetic to keep whining about him.
My post really was rebutting the comparison between the Kerkvliet MFF and Spencer’s MFF.
It is what it is.
I’m 100% certain Tom Brands stands behind his man’s decision 100% as he should. But I’d wager that deep down in his own feelings that it doesn’t sit well. In the same exact circumstance I’d be willing to bet Tom Brands wrestles back for 3rd.
You get the next best thing.
Just to be clear, I am not personally (maybe others are) saying he dogged the whole situation. If he was hurt, MFF out. That's what they're for.
I don't think the vast majority of people are upset he spurned PSU. Turned out just as well for PSU. I think there is merit, however, to a guy who wants to tell others that excuses are for wusses, then MFF out. Again, MFF out all you want if hurt. But then keep the excuses soundbites muted.
Also, his coach is an idiot who likes to taunt injured wrestlers as his unicorn athlete embarrasses them. Again, reap what you sow. Can't blame folks for asking if Spencer likes tough wrestling when his own coach broaches it with everyone else.
Tom Brands didn't have 3 ACL tears. Under normal circumstances you'd be right. With Spencer's injury history, nobody should bat an eye to see him sit out. We should be happy he was able to make a run at it at all.
Get out of here with that nonsense... side eyes you JS
It's easy to cast stones when you are not and never have been in that situation...
It's easy to cast stones when you are not and never have been in that situation...
correct...which is why you all are being ridiculous criticizing him
NO way pal... This is different...
And what do you mean "YOU ALL"
And what do you mean "YOU ALL"
Kerk had surgery. We'll find out soon enough if Lee does, God knows it'll be trumpeted from the skies.
S
Spencer had at most two matches left in the tourney on Saturday, not 3 or 4 in a day.
I would assume there is truth to some percentage of fans piling on because they were rooting against Spencer from the get-go.
I think there is also a percentage that is sympathetic regardless of Spencer’s precise reason(s) for withdrawing.
And I believe there is also a percentage that would have been sympathetic if not for the marketing and commercialism of “Excuses are for wusses” and Tom trying to market him as the GOAT before the final chapter had been written.
And yet another percentage of people who remember the age-old question, “Are you injured, or are you hurt?” and conclude based on Lee’s performance up to his final sequence in the tournament that he was not “injured” in that sense of the analysis.
None of that is meant to detract from your point, but only to convey that people’s collective feelings on the matter are not binary. There is a lot to consider in forming an opinion. And with such a historic moment, it is difficult (for many) to not want to have and express an opinion.
I think it is pretty clear that Cael has the best interests of his wrestlers in all his decisions. Cael is also not a meathead when it comes to the grind.
This is the thing with Spencer though. You can never assume that. He teched his way through Junior worlds with a torn labrum. Nobody knew until after. He wrestled for 2 years on a torn ACL. Nobody knew. Hell, both his recent ACL tears happened during televised tournament finals and nobody even noticed. He scored 21 unanswered on Schroeder *after* tearing his ACL.
Spencer got beat fair and square. He made a dumb mistake when he had the match in hand and it cost him a chance at 4. But what I find distasteful is that so many fans - mostly PSU fans - are trying to leverage that loss as a mark on his character.
Ask an Iowa fan if they give 2 shits about a 2nd, 3rd or 4th place trophy or no trophy at all. Kind of like, we as a fan base really were not too upset when Michigan won B1G's last year. Both want the samething, NCAA team title.
Isn't mental health a huge concern in sports now? Spencer Lee may not have in the proper mental state to compete on Saturday.
I am glad he lost, the talk about Lee being the GOAT was tiring, especially for a guy who has plenty of experience counting light bulbs in the ceiling when looking at them from his back.
I don't care about his lack of motivation to wrestle back for 3rd after winning 3 national titles.
I don't care either way. I think a lot of this criticism of Spencer Lee is PSU fans piling on.
That's because a lot of it is fans piling on.
But you don't think fans will pile on over at HR if Carter, after his post-match interview, loses next year? Of course they will, and that's okay. He talks the talk, now he has to walks the walk. They will pile on to high heaven, and not because he spurned them. Carter isn't some Iowa City kid. But they'll pile on just the same.
But he invites that, and he will be OKAY with folks calling him on it if he loses. He'll pile on more than anyone, call himself out. This idea that Spencer (and more his coach) deserve some greater discretion of judgement, especially the way his meathead coach acts, no, sorry, not happening. Do dumb things, win dumb prizes.
You probably remember me saying some things about Spencer back in the early years at Iowa that pissed many of you off. I still think there's more going on with Spencer than just the injuries we all know about. I give him a pass and much respect. His mom's behavior not so much...
Anyone else looking forward to Spencers mom Judo chopping JTS?
She has to be able to see me then catch me first...Anyone else looking forward to Spencers mom Judo chopping JTS?
Regarding “injured” vs. “hurt” . . . I’m not talking about whether there was a textbook medical injury. Most guys wrestle with those based on tolerance for pain and official clearance by medical staff. Mekhi Lewis is a perfect example.
You cite all the times Spencer wrestled with a medical injury without anyone’s knowledge. Well, either (a) those cases were true (no one knew), (b) a few people knew and kept it a secret from medical personnel, or (c) a few people knew and Lee was medically cleared to compete anyway. Whichever if those scenarios, it would have come down to his tolerance for pain and ability to at least appear able-bodied.
So, I think that this one component (injured vs. hurt) of the Spencer analysis puts us in a position that — barring an undisclosed, crippling injury that occurred during or after the Ramos match — the decision was based in part on being hurt (not injured). The history you cited only supports that stance.
I'm glad he showed up. I'll never question his physical toughness as wrestling is hard enough with good ACLs, but my guess is he was probably as injured Saturday as he was all year except for his pride. I'm guessing he wasn't really 100 percent and could have MFF'd whenever he wanted to this year. But a lot of wrestlers are injured at this time of year and still battle through it. I think he's got the kind of mentality that says if I'm not first then it isn't worth anything, which is kind of sad. I'm always impressed with guys who get upset and battle back for 3rd. Coming back from not one, but two torn ACLS to be a top-level wrestler is tough. I don't know if we have too many examples of people who have done that, especially at his level. It probably affected him more than we know.
His mom? Really that's pathetic. She was distraught her son lost. She broke her own glasses. She didn't scream at anyone or disrespect anyone. The fact that went viral and people like you are piling on about it or judging her is a testament to the cruelty of human beings.
Yeah you’re right. Completely normal reaction to a wrestling match. I see it every day…
That being said, I love how Cael Sanderson preaches to his his kids that there’s so much more to life than wrestling. The way he told one of his young wrestlers still fighting on the front side and right before going onto the mat… “10 years from now no one will remember this”.
My money is on Mrs. Lee. She'll make a spectacles out of you...
It’s physics: piling on Spencer is an equal and opposite reaction to all of the goat talk.
To be fair, no 3-timer going for a 4th has ever lost before, so she's the only mother to ever experience this emotion.
It's a bit short sighted to think she didn't have another pair
