I would bet good money Zain, Nolf and Bo dont ever lose in the same evening again.
US Open Thread
- Thread starter greenmanRD
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Didn't watch as I don't have flo but that clip above and JO coming away with the win is why I think freestyle sucks. Why these guys would work this hard only to be jobbed by a ref is beyond me.
I don't see how this was an example of it reinforcing action. JO had no choice there but to kick out. How can it be that he gets 2 whether Zain is exposed or not? If anything the rule disincentivizes action because it lowers the bar for success. Why try to actually score two points when two almost-points will do?
More importantly it introduces more opportunities for arbitrary calls and subjective refereeing, as if that's what FS could really use to mitigate its corruption problem. I'm looking at Twitter during that match and seeing a lot of enraged fans who aren't even PSU fans. We needed more certainty and predictability and UWW just put its foot on the gas in the other direction.
This is the real junk call that nobody is talking about.
The call was correct, the rule is garbage. The caution and 2 was also a pathetic call
Man, I'm with ya. I lost my noggin at a passivity call last weekend that completely changed a match for one of my guys because "somebody had to be called". I hate refs being interjected in a match. I'm known for the "LET THEM DECIDE IT" from the stands/bench, often. I'm just explaining it as I've heard it. In MN, we're blessed to have officials that routinely get to big tournaments like this. In fact, I guarantee 1 will be at the open I'm at next week and will reference something from Vegas in the coaches meeting/official chat. I think correct throw is garbage, but there was a time when NOBODY was shooting. Nobody. This at least gets dudes to do something.
What I don't think is fair is for PSU fans to go "Oh, I hate freestyle, it sucks" because a few PSU guys lost. Taylor used to have the same difficulties. It's a transition that these guys aren't making full-time, yet. DT figured it out... I don't think we have reason to believe any of these guys will, either.
I'm just explaining where they're coming from, guys. I'm with ya, and I get it.
However, it's important to support the Olympic Styles. That supersedes any wins, losses, etc. They tried to cut our sport from the most important worldwide event just a few years ago. Don't let some PSU losses turn you into folkstyle people. If Cael, the coaches, and the athletes think it's worth competing in, it's worth us watching and supporting.
However, it's important to support the Olympic Styles. That supersedes any wins, losses, etc. They tried to cut our sport from the most important worldwide event just a few years ago. Don't let some PSU losses turn you into folkstyle people. If Cael, the coaches, and the athletes think it's worth competing in, it's worth us watching and supporting.
Varner was very mad. It sure seems like they approved the call quick. Something that controversial you'd think they would look at a few times.
Quick note on Joe's semifinal opponent David Carr.... Carr beat Joe two in a row last year at the UWW Cadet Freestyle 9-5 & 4-1 @ 69 kg. Carr lost to Brady Berge in the best 2 of 3 finals at the same tournament in 2015, 5-2 & 8-4.
Looking forward to see if Joe can turn around last year's loss last year. This is the kind of spot brother Nick has shined in the past, avenging losses to Carter Happel and Mitchell McKee.
On a separate note, younger brother Matt Lee won the US Open Cadets, Freestyle at 130-133 and finished 3rd at the Western Junior Freestyle at 132. this weekend.
Always have and always will dislike freestyle. For me it has nothing to do with losses.
True -- and also, if the sport thinks competitions are worth holding, then it's worthwhile to make the rules both simple and incentivizing action. "Correct throw" is what happens when technocrats fix problems.
The guy has to be crazy or has a brain problem.Good heavens he has the size and knows how to wrestle but he pi&&es it away by his stupid twitter and his drinking and is in no shape. With you hope some one takes him out in wrestle backs...
This isn't a freestyle adjustment thing. Two weeks ago that would've been scored 2 exposure and nothing else. The new correct throw rule is freestyle is horrible, regardless of today's result
To CropDuster's point, I don't think the action needed further incentives, guys are shooting. Agree with Jefe that this is a technocrat fix to a general observation.
I'm also not sure I see anyone adjusting to this particular change. I saw what were probably correct throws not called all day until JO's.
I'm also not sure I see anyone adjusting to this particular change. I saw what were probably correct throws not called all day until JO's.
Watching some of these matches today, especially Zain vs. Oliver, I realized that the international wrestling community might have a kind of subtending "death wish". It does not deeply want to survive and flourish and takes irrational and often self-destructive actions to undermine its own legitimacy or sense of order. And, for the first time, I lost a desire to care myself. For me, it's a kind of "jumping the shark" moment (Google if you are -unfamiliar with the reference). Like realizing that professional wrestling is fake or boxing is rigged or that an incompetent and completely unqualified dangerous pathological narcissist can be President through the "auction" (votes to the highest bidder) and merchandising of his petty self-indulgence.
I watch very little of it. I would much rather see our best guys go the fighting route if they get the chance after college. My friends were freaking out when wrestling was getting dropped from the olympics and I ask myself if it was such a big deal to miss out on 20 minutes of wrestling (in the middle of the night) once every four years? I follow because of the names and potential matchups, but make this whole tournament folkstyle and I would be glued!
I get you. I do wish they'd add a weight for Olympics, however. Too big of a jump between 74 and 86. Add an 80 kg weight class.
Agree. Zain gave JO cheap points that cost him the win. If you know the rule, you shouldn't be giving away the points...
So I sit down to binge watch the semis this morning after falling asleep last night and proceed to see Zain get absolutely hosed by the ref on the two point hand to the face call. Oliver must of smashed Zain in the head 5 times after ZR went up 3-0 without even a warning yet he hits Z with a 2 point penalty for what appeared to be a pretty benign push off the forehead!? I immediately go from enjoying my leisurely Saturday morning coffee to an expletive laced tirade completely forgetting my daughter had 10 girls in the house for a birthday sleepover. So yea, then I get that dreaded look from the wife and had to settle down in a hurry, lol.
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I think you underestimate that percentage.
...Whitters is absolutely right!...
...for years the collegiate style has moved its rules toward the Olympic style which is boring and unduly influenced by often biaised, incompetent or even corrupt officials...
...the fans certainly are more attracted to the collegiate style with its variety of exciting attacks and counters... freestyle is like watching paint dry...ugh...
...for years the collegiate style has moved its rules toward the Olympic style which is boring and unduly influenced by often biaised, incompetent or even corrupt officials...
...the fans certainly are more attracted to the collegiate style with its variety of exciting attacks and counters... freestyle is like watching paint dry...ugh...
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Penn State fans care more about Penn State wrestlers than they care about Pat Downey, so what?
The whole concept of Freestyle seems arbitrary to me. There are Folkstyle matches that Zain works for 1:30, before he turns a guy and ultimately pins him. In Freestyle, guys don't even attempt those turning combinations, because if you don't have exposure in about 10 seconds, a ref is is standing them up again. It's like watching paint dry to me.
Not true. I see your defense of freestyle and why everyone should support it. Accept that everyone doesn't have to agree with you.
I get the reference here...his point is that we're complaining about a style because of how it affected our guys. Personally, I have to disagree though. If Zain won in the same fashion that JO did, I'd be happy with the result and disgusted with the way it came about. If Nolf and Bo won by stalling to no end for the final 2 minutes of their matches - I wouldn't be half as excited as I currently get when they're coming up for a match. I love the PSU "get after it" style and it seems that in freestyle that won't be successful unless there's a lot of separation between you and your opponent.
Our losses came last night from high level folkstyle wrestlers to high level freestyle wrestlers. I have no doubt that the fact that JO, Green, and Perry concentrate on freestyle only made the biggest difference here. They know how to manipulate the rules in their favor better than folk guys. Not just the case for PSU by the way - look at Heflin over Dean...I didn't see the match, but give Dean a year to concentrate solely on freestyle and I bet he owns the rematch!
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Give me a few hours of coaching at a local open and I'll come back to piss and moan with everyone.
no doubt Zain was robbed of a win,,,,also there is little doubt in my mind that Zain will own this weight class in a year or 2.
Haha, what a smack in the face! Exactly true for last night!
Freestyle is fine and can be very exciting. The rule changes a few years ago were very positive for the sport.
However, the keep monkeying around with the thing and the two rule changes that you saw on display in Zain's match were a great example of it. Fortunate that they both occurred in one match to highlight it - unfortunate, for Zain I guess.
Moving both of these to 2-point scores has wiped out most of the good that moving a TD to a 2 point score did (TD still worth more than step-out, which is one good thing). Also effectively minimized exposure. They made the correct throw equal to a TD score (which blows my mind in the first place) which it was before the rule changes a few years ago.
And having 3rd passivity a caution and 2, when the shot clock violation is worth 1 (and refs are almost forced by the rules to give at least 2 passivities in the first period and often give 3) is just brain dead. You've made it easier to win matches without scoring because as CropDuster noted - passivity is not like stalling.
So effectively the puds at UWW just rolled back the clock to the rules that put wrestling on the chopping block - not exactly, but moving towards that. Only the scoreboard will read higher.
This rant is not inspired by Zain's loss. Although I'm a huge PSU fan, I would be happy with either Frank, JO or Zain winning this (big JO fan here) and honestly I would not mind seeing JO make a world team one time even if it comes at the expense of a PSU wrestler. Zain's still in college and will have his time, and Frank has already won a spot in the Olympics.
However, the keep monkeying around with the thing and the two rule changes that you saw on display in Zain's match were a great example of it. Fortunate that they both occurred in one match to highlight it - unfortunate, for Zain I guess.
Moving both of these to 2-point scores has wiped out most of the good that moving a TD to a 2 point score did (TD still worth more than step-out, which is one good thing). Also effectively minimized exposure. They made the correct throw equal to a TD score (which blows my mind in the first place) which it was before the rule changes a few years ago.
And having 3rd passivity a caution and 2, when the shot clock violation is worth 1 (and refs are almost forced by the rules to give at least 2 passivities in the first period and often give 3) is just brain dead. You've made it easier to win matches without scoring because as CropDuster noted - passivity is not like stalling.
So effectively the puds at UWW just rolled back the clock to the rules that put wrestling on the chopping block - not exactly, but moving towards that. Only the scoreboard will read higher.
This rant is not inspired by Zain's loss. Although I'm a huge PSU fan, I would be happy with either Frank, JO or Zain winning this (big JO fan here) and honestly I would not mind seeing JO make a world team one time even if it comes at the expense of a PSU wrestler. Zain's still in college and will have his time, and Frank has already won a spot in the Olympics.
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This is the first I have seen Joe Lee----pretty much a stud..I am assuming that Joe will follow brother NIck to PSU? What weight does Joe project???? 149-157??? How old is Joe--- Soph?
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