World Championships - Oct. 20-28

[RoarLions1]

Ironic that for all the hand-wringing by anti-folkstyle crowd about how the US would be better off ditching folk for freestyle, Sadulaev beat Snyder on the mat in a position that guys with folkstyle backgrounds would be better suited to defend. But then Snyder has never really mat-wrestled, whether in folk or free because he never needed to. And, of course, he probably has even less experience fighting off his back (which brings IMar to mind). Anyway, folk backgrounds didn't hurt DT, Colon, Dake, Cox, or Gwiz this weekend, and Burroughs has always somehow managed to overcome it. And all the guys who didn't medal this weekend have medaled before. Hopefully the folkstyle-is-hurting us canard can finally be put to rest, though I'm sure it won't, so long as there's room for the goalposts to be moved.

My experiences with those that are anti-folkstyle are few and far between, since I hang mostly with high school and college wrestling fans here in the states. It's my opinion too (similar to tikk's) that folk hasn't hurt free all that much, if at all...but the opposition and arguments pro-and-con will go on forever. It's not one of those topics that will ever go away.

If something like this ever gets legs, and folk disappears (I don't think that'll happen), it's likely fanship will suffer dramatically (my opinion only). Folk is far easier to follow for the average fan.

 

[Dogwelder]

He didn't pin him from the Petersen Position... the Russian Tank spun 180 degrees on his shoulder which was squarely in Snyder's chest, then he got the pin (i.e., immediately following accomplishing the chest-to-chest position).

Petersen also seems the wrong word to me because to me a Peterson is <right hand grabs right wrist/arm> (not to even mention what grabs the leg), whereas Sadulaev had <right hand/arm hooks left arm>. By the time we call it a reverse Peterson or something, it becomes “why bother?” #nerdout

 

[El-Jefe]

Ironic that for all the hand-wringing by anti-folkstyle crowd about how the US would be better off ditching folk for freestyle, Sadulaev beat Snyder on the mat in a position that guys with folkstyle backgrounds would be better suited to defend. But then Snyder has never really mat-wrestled, whether in folk or free because he never needed to. And, of course, he probably has even less experience fighting off his back (which brings IMar to mind). Anyway, folk backgrounds didn't hurt DT, Colon, Dake, Cox, or Gwiz this weekend, and Burroughs has always somehow managed to overcome it. And all the guys who didn't medal this weekend have medaled before. Hopefully the folkstyle-is-hurting us canard can finally be put to rest, though I'm sure it won't, so long as there's room for the goalposts to be moved.

The Foleys out there would do well to understand Moneyball and not just read it for cocktail party discussion.

Read it and it's about on-base percentage. Understand it and it's about creating advantages with underutilized resources.

Folkstyle techniques are both underutilized internationally and easily converted into frrestyle techniques by Americans.

It's a real advantage.

 

[Dogwelder]

Good name. To me “fireman’s” is all about having an opponent’s arm/armpit against your neck, which was not present in the Pitt move. Dump is better.

In other words, if Sadulaev the Fireman had that “backward overhook from bottom” on Snyder and stood up, he would not have been able to carry Snyder out of a burning building; Snyder would have fallen down and bonked his head instead. And then burned to further death. And if he’s not alive, how would we see them wrestle in a final again?

 

[a_mshaffer]

Petersen also seems the wrong word to me because to me a Peterson is <right hand grabs right wrist/arm> (not to even mention what grabs the leg), whereas Sadulaev had <right hand/arm hooks left arm>. By the time we call it a reverse Peterson or something, it becomes “why bother?” #nerdout

inverted fatman roll!

 

[GOLDBANGER]

Ironic that for all the hand-wringing by anti-folkstyle crowd about how the US would be better off ditching folk for freestyle, Sadulaev beat Snyder on the mat in a position that guys with folkstyle backgrounds would be better suited to defend. But then Snyder has never really mat-wrestled, whether in folk or free because he never needed to. And, of course, he probably has even less experience fighting off his back (which brings IMar to mind). Anyway, folk backgrounds didn't hurt DT, Colon, Dake, Cox, or Gwiz this weekend, and Burroughs has always somehow managed to overcome it. And all the guys who didn't medal this weekend have medaled before. Hopefully the folkstyle-is-hurting us canard can finally be put to rest, though I'm sure it won't, so long as there's room for the goalposts to be moved.

Maybe I'm nuts but I actually believe that folkstyle is HELPING us at the international level. These guys from around the world have no idea how to defend in the scrambles now being created. Additionally, whatever conditioning program our team is on, please stay on it!!

 

[WrestleEveryDay]

There are now 5 current or former world champs on our national team. I'm going to make a guess we've never had that before.

6, but who's counting?

Steiber (1)
Burroughs (4+1Oly.)
Dake (1)
Taylor (1)
Cox (1)
Snyder (2 +1 Oly.)
12 total World or Olympic titles for this group!!

 

[NoVa Lion]

Maybe I'm nuts

Is that a trick question?

Actually, I agree that IMHO folkstyle helps with freestyle and I am definitely nuts.

 

[GOLDBANGER]

Is that a trick question?

Actually, I agree that IMHO folkstyle helps with freestyle and I am definitely nuts.

I think it was rhetorical!! Most of us are a little off kilter NoVa.

 

[Ban Basketball]

I think it was rhetorical!! Most of us are a little off kilter NoVa.

ESPECIALLY me! I'm bat poop crazy and stupid to boot!

 

[CJF_Said_The_Great_Joe_Paterno]

Ironic that for all the hand-wringing by anti-folkstyle crowd about how the US would be better off ditching folk for freestyle, Sadulaev beat Snyder on the mat in a position that guys with folkstyle backgrounds would be better suited to defend. But then Snyder has never really mat-wrestled, whether in folk or free because he never needed to. And, of course, he probably has even less experience fighting off his back (which brings IMar to mind). Anyway, folk backgrounds didn't hurt DT, Colon, Dake, Cox, or Gwiz this weekend, and Burroughs has always somehow managed to overcome it. And all the guys who didn't medal this weekend have medaled before. Hopefully the folkstyle-is-hurting us canard can finally be put to rest, though I'm sure it won't, so long as there's room for the goalposts to be moved.

The criticism I've heard are not in regards to scrambles from neutral - these translate near identically from folk to free. The major criticisms of folk are rewarding passivity in neutral aimed at "shortening the match" (i.e., making the the 1st period of a folk match - the longest and SHOULD BE most important period - irrelevant. A tactic that makes "riding for the sake of riding" and "riding time advantage" more important than ability to score in neutral for offenseless wrestlers who are great at riding....and that is just plain wrong and completely against the spirit of "Olympic Wrestling" [i.e., Freestyle] that "Folkstyle" was spawned from back in the early part of the 20th Century.).

The other major criticism of folk is that it rewards "riding for the sake of riding" from the top position (i.e., the top wrestler accumulating riding-time while making no real effort to actually score points) - when this skill (i.e., riding for the sake of riding without scoring any points or doing anything that even comes close to scoring points), which does not translate to Freestyle - the seminal form of "wrestling" from which folk was spawned - at all, it makes the ability to ride coupled with stalling-defense a potential winning combination that is more important than having neutral offense and ability to score. That is wrong imho and conflicts with the spirit of the rules Folk was created and incepted from.

I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say that the ability to "scramble" from neutral in Folk (which would be the analogous comparison to what took place in Snyder-Sudalev match) is harmful to your Freestyle abilities - it DOESN'T, "Neutral Wrestling" in Folk (including ability to scramble) is the part of Folk that translates almost perfectly to Free (with the caveat that you have to be more careful regarding exposure as control rules on exposure differ).

Sudalev and Snyder were both wrestling from the position of "neutral" and engaged in a "neutral scramble" - when has anyone ever said that superior neutral scrambling ability in Folk hurts your Freestyle abilities??? Because that is for sure utter nonsense - it's for sure one of the most translatable skills between Folk & Free.

I like Folk - did a lot of it as a kid (did some Freestyle in summer as well). Love watching "good" Folk wrestling as a wrestling fan - what I don't like is Folk wrestlers (and coaches for that matter) who violate the "spirit" of the rules Folk was created from and use blatant stalling to shorten matches, eliminating the importance of what is supposed to be the most important period - the 1st period (as signified by being longest) and try to win matches via "riding for the sake of riding"(i.e., riding-time advantage). IOW, making "riding" with no intent to score, the most important "skill/element" of the match - even more important than being able to score an "offensive point" via your own shot, counter OR forcing your opponent to be so defensive and passive that you are rewarded for your aggression... that's just wrong imho...ugly, horrid and boring to watch...and should not be tolerated or encouraged by Folk Officials (IOW, Folk needs to be far more proactive and vigilant about enforcing Stalling/Passivity rules especially in regards to the all important 1st Period AND in the mat periods when the top wrestler spends a prolonged period riding for the sake of riding but never "improves" their position or omes remotely close to scoring points from the top position.

 

[tikk10]

Bo Nickal started something and it's catching on with the US team.

"......Now we come out here and we get championship after championship after championship. We’re getting medals and titles, and that’s what we do. We’ve meshed as a team and it’s fun to be a part of this," said Cox.

And elsewhere

 

[nerfstate]

The criticism I've heard are not in regards to scrambles from neutral - these translate near identically from folk to free. The major criticisms of folk are rewarding passivity in neutral aimed at "shortening the match" (i.e., making the the 1st period of a folk match - the longest and SHOULD BE most important period - irrelevant. A tactic that makes "riding for the sake of riding" and "riding time advantage" more important than ability to score in neutral for offenseless wrestlers who are great at riding....and that is just plain wrong and completely against the spirit of "Olympic Wrestling" [i.e., Freestyle] that "Folkstyle" was spawned from back in the early part of the 20th Century.).

The other major criticism of folk is that it rewards "riding for the sake of riding" from the top position (i.e., the top wrestler accumulating riding-time while making no real effort to actually score points) - when this skill (i.e., riding for the sake of riding without scoring any points or doing anything that even comes close to scoring points), which does not translate to Freestyle - the seminal form of "wrestling" from which folk was spawned - at all, it makes the ability to ride coupled with stalling-defense a potential winning combination that is more important than having neutral offense and ability to score. That is wrong imho and conflicts with the spirit of the rules Folk was created and incepted from.

I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say that the ability to "scramble" from neutral in Folk (which would be the analogous comparison to what took place in Snyder-Sudalev match) is harmful to your Freestyle abilities - it DOESN'T, "Neutral Wrestling" in Folk (including ability to scramble) is the part of Folk that translates almost perfectly to Free (with the caveat that you have to be more careful regarding exposure as control rules on exposure differ).

Sudalev and Snyder were both wrestling from the position of "neutral" and engaged in a "neutral scramble" - when has anyone ever said that superior neutral scrambling ability in Folk hurts your Freestyle abilities??? Because that is for sure utter nonsense - it's for sure one of the most translatable skills between Folk & Free.

I like Folk - did a lot of it as a kid (did some Freestyle in summer as well). Love watching "good" Folk wrestling as a wrestling fan - what I don't like is Folk wrestlers (and coaches for that matter) who violate the "spirit" of the rules Folk was created from and use blatant stalling to shorten matches, eliminating the importance of what is supposed to be the most important period - the 1st period (as signified by being longest) and try to win matches via "riding for the sake of riding"(i.e., riding-time advantage). IOW, making "riding" with no intent to score, the most important "skill/element" of the match - even more important than being able to score an "offensive point" via tour own shot, counter OR forcing your opponent to be so defensive and passive that you are rewarded for your aggression... that's just wrong imho...ugly, horrid and boring to watch...and should not be tolerated or encouraged by Folk Officials (IOW, Folk needs to be far more proactive about enforcing Stalling/Passivity rules especially in regards to the all important 1st Period AND in the mat periods when the top wrestler spends a prolonged period riding for the sake of riding but never "improves" their position or omes remotely close to scoring points from the top position.

While I’m not at all a fan of the assumption that Folk must over time morph into Free, you aren’t wrong. I for one would welcome the end of the riding time point. And much more aggressive stall calls would be great too, if applied evenly and fairly.

Re Snyder vs Sudalaev: I think Tikk was pointing out that US focus on Freestyle techniques in many places do not focus on mat scrambling. It seems to be THE primary focus at NLWC, where many other places (to over generalize) focus on hi c drills, head/hands, etc. These scramble situations arise more frequently at lower levels of competition, because elite defense is a baseline at the senior level. But I think it’s pretty clear that if you’re committed to applying great scrambles T the senior level, it can be a winning approach. Kyle said he’d never seen that move before. How is that possible? I bet DT saw it recently.

 

[GOLDBANGER]

The criticism I've heard are not in regards to scrambles from neutral - these translate near identically from folk to free. The major criticisms of folk are rewarding passivity in neutral aimed at "shortening the match" (i.e., making the the 1st period of a folk match - the longest and SHOULD BE most important period - irrelevant. A tactic that makes "riding for the sake of riding" and "riding time advantage" more important than ability to score in neutral for offenseless wrestlers who are great at riding....and that is just plain wrong and completely against the spirit of "Olympic Wrestling" [i.e., Freestyle] that "Folkstyle" was spawned from back in the early part of the 20th Century.).

The other major criticism of folk is that it rewards "riding for the sake of riding" from the top position (i.e., the top wrestler accumulating riding-time while making no real effort to actually score points) - when this skill (i.e., riding for the sake of riding without scoring any points or doing anything that even comes close to scoring points), which does not translate to Freestyle - the seminal form of "wrestling" from which folk was spawned - at all, it makes the ability to ride coupled with stalling-defense a potential winning combination that is more important than having neutral offense and ability to score. That is wrong imho and conflicts with the spirit of the rules Folk was created and incepted from.

I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say that the ability to "scramble" from neutral in Folk (which would be the analogous comparison to what took place in Snyder-Sudalev match) is harmful to your Freestyle abilities - it DOESN'T, "Neutral Wrestling" in Folk (including ability to scramble) is the part of Folk that translates almost perfectly to Free (with the caveat that you have to be more careful regarding exposure as control rules on exposure differ).

Sudalev and Snyder were both wrestling from the position of "neutral" and engaged in a "neutral scramble" - when has anyone ever said that superior neutral scrambling ability in Folk hurts your Freestyle abilities??? Because that is for sure utter nonsense - it's for sure one of the most translatable skills between Folk & Free.

I like Folk - did a lot of it as a kid (did some Freestyle in summer as well). Love watching "good" Folk wrestling as a wrestling fan - what I don't like is Folk wrestlers (and coaches for that matter) who violate the "spirit" of the rules Folk was created from and use blatant stalling to shorten matches, eliminating the importance of what is supposed to be the most important period - the 1st period (as signified by being longest) and try to win matches via "riding for the sake of riding"(i.e., riding-time advantage). IOW, making "riding" with no intent to score, the most important "skill/element" of the match - even more important than being able to score an "offensive point" via tour own shot, counter OR forcing your opponent to be so defensive and passive that you are rewarded for your aggression... that's just wrong imho...ugly, horrid and boring to watch...and should not be tolerated or encouraged by Folk Officials (IOW, Folk needs to be far more proactive about enforcing Stalling/Passivity rules especially in regards to the all important 1st Period AND in the mat periods when the top wrestler spends a prolonged period riding for the sake of riding but never "improves" their position or omes remotely close to scoring points from the top position.

You evidently haven't been paying close attention to how Penn State's style of wrestling is changing the landscape of college wrestling.

 

[y2jriden]

While not at all a fan of the assumption that Folk must over time morph into Free, you aren’t wrong. I for one would welcome the end of the riding time point. And much more aggressive stall calls would be great too, if applied evenly and fairly.

I like the RT point. Granted I don't like to see a guy ride without even trying to turn but if you can keep a guy down for 1 min, it effectively wipes out one of his escape points and that can change the flow of the match completely. I agree that the referee needs to monitor it and call stalling on top when needed, I think this has actually improved lately.

A wrestler at the B1G level should be able to escape and not be ridden. As an aside, if you are so bad at escaping that you have to choose neutral in an intra squad meet, you aren't winning a national title

Also, one of the best PSU matches of all time may not have been so without the RT point.

 

[matter7172]

Folk was created from and use blatant stalling to shorten matches, eliminating the importance of what is supposed to be the most important period - the 1st period (as signified by being longest) and try to win matches via "riding for the sake of riding"(i.e., riding-time advantage). IOW, making "riding" with no intent to score, the most important "skill/element" of the match - even more important than being able to score an "offensive point" via tour own shot, counter OR forcing your opponent to be so defensive and passive that you are rewarded for your aggression... that's just wrong imho...ugly, horrid and boring to watch...and should not be tolerated or encouraged by Folk Officials (IOW, Folk needs to be far more proactive about enforcing Stalling/Passivity rules especially in regards to the all important 1st Period AND in the mat periods when the top wrestler spends a prolonged period riding for the sake of riding but never "improves" their position or omes remotely close to scoring points from the top position.

I come from the days where college matches were 2-3-3, so will disagree a bit. I tend to agree about top wrestling. Otoh, I think wrestlers were served well by learning to *really earn* their escapes and takedowns, as opposed to being cut or "helped" by making the top wrestler work for a pin. But, on balance, I like the idea and practice of making top wrestlers work for a pin. I can remember a really good wrestler getting a tight waist on me and driving his shoulder into the small of my back for two minutes in the finals of a tournament. There was very little I could do to get out. No fun for me and no fun for the spectators.

 

[a_mshaffer]

While not at all a fan of the assumption that Folk must over time morph into Free, you aren’t wrong. I for one would welcome the end of the riding time point. And much more aggressive stall calls would be great too, if applied evenly and fairly.

riding can appear to be boring but if easy everyone would do it. It is an art and skill. I like folk and free, but to me wrestling is demonstrated by all 3 skills - getting control, escaping from being controlled, and controlling. Of course the latter should include looking for a fall and there are rules trying to enforce that. Guess it will never be a perfect sport.

 

[tikk10]

The criticism I've heard are not in regards to scrambles from neutral - these translate near identically from folk to free. The major criticisms of folk are rewarding passivity in neutral aimed at "shortening the match" (i.e., making the the 1st period of a folk match - the longest and SHOULD BE most important period - irrelevant. A tactic that makes "riding for the sake of riding" and "riding time advantage" more important than ability to score in neutral for offenseless wrestlers who are great at riding....and that is just plain wrong and completely against the spirit of "Olympic Wrestling" [i.e., Freestyle] that "Folkstyle" was spawned from back in the early part of the 20th Century.).

The other major criticism of folk is that it rewards "riding for the sake of riding" from the top position (i.e., the top wrestler accumulating riding-time while making no real effort to actually score points) - when this skill (i.e., riding for the sake of riding without scoring any points or doing anything that even comes close to scoring points), which does not translate to Freestyle - the seminal form of "wrestling" from which folk was spawned - at all, it makes the ability to ride coupled with stalling-defense a potential winning combination that is more important than having neutral offense and ability to score. That is wrong imho and conflicts with the spirit of the rules Folk was created and incepted from.

I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say that the ability to "scramble" from neutral in Folk (which would be the analogous comparison to what took place in Snyder-Sudalev match) is harmful to your Freestyle abilities - it DOESN'T, "Neutral Wrestling" in Folk (including ability to scramble) is the part of Folk that translates almost perfectly to Free (with the caveat that you have to be more careful regarding exposure as control rules on exposure differ).

Sudalev and Snyder were both wrestling from the position of "neutral" and engaged in a "neutral scramble" - when has anyone ever said that superior neutral scrambling ability in Folk hurts your Freestyle abilities??? Because that is for sure utter nonsense - it's for sure one of the most translatable skills between Folk & Free.

I like Folk - did a lot of it as a kid (did some Freestyle in summer as well). Love watching "good" Folk wrestling as a wrestling fan - what I don't like is Folk wrestlers (and coaches for that matter) who violate the "spirit" of the rules Folk was created from and use blatant stalling to shorten matches, eliminating the importance of what is supposed to be the most important period - the 1st period (as signified by being longest) and try to win matches via "riding for the sake of riding"(i.e., riding-time advantage). IOW, making "riding" with no intent to score, the most important "skill/element" of the match - even more important than being able to score an "offensive point" via your own shot, counter OR forcing your opponent to be so defensive and passive that you are rewarded for your aggression... that's just wrong imho...ugly, horrid and boring to watch...and should not be tolerated or encouraged by Folk Officials (IOW, Folk needs to be far more proactive and vigilant about enforcing Stalling/Passivity rules especially in regards to the all important 1st Period AND in the mat periods when the top wrestler spends a prolonged period riding for the sake of riding but never "improves" their position or omes remotely close to scoring points from the top position.

My point wasn't to trigger a freestyle v folk debate, but rather to point out that recent results greatly undermine an argument many critics of folk have made over the years, namely that US, by continuing to adhere to folk, was lowering its ceiling in freestyle.

Re Sadulaev and Snyder, the scramble may have started out in neutral but they wound up on the mat and once there Snyder didn't know what to do and it cost him the title. After watching it a few times it seems like had opportunities to get to his stomach but he never tried. He instead held on to Sadulaev like he was maybe going to turn his predicament into offense of his own and then again had no response when Sadulaev turned into him. And I think it's fair to attribute all this to the distinct possibility that despite being a wrestler from the US, he's really not a folkstyle wrestler. Thus my point about irony.

 

[nerfstate]

riding can appear to be boring but if easy everyone would do it. It is an art and skill. I like folk and free, but to me wrestling is demonstrated by all 3 skills - getting control, escaping from being controlled, and controlling. Of course the latter should include looking for a fall and there are rules trying to enforce that. Guess it will never be a perfect sport.

I never said it was easy! And yeah, Zain beating Stieber was awesome. But you can't tell me true freshman Zain was half as entertaining to watch as every Zain since then. All of the Zains. I'm sticking to it, I like both styles, and think it's great (and an advantage) that our youngsters are doing both. Anyone who thinks USA should abandon folk is kinda like an Iranian saying "enough already with the underhooks!" The coolest thing about Worlds/Olympics is the clash of the styles.

 

[CropDuster507]

To everyone lauding folkstyle for our freestyle success. I get it. However, imagine if more of our guys could actually turn someone on top instead of lay there for :15 AT THE WORLD AND OLYMPIC LEVEL. We can't because as a country, we value staying on top and turning to hold instead of turning to expose, and they require different techniques.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the "Folkstyle hurts US" ideology, but there are things that would vastly help our country be absolutely freaking dominant instead of place second, and that's no disrespect to anyone's efforts this week. I'm proud of and happy for everything they achieved, but telling someone to play mini golf and expect them to be dominant on a par 5 isn't practical. Maybe that comparison sucks, I couldn't come up with one.

Wrestling freestyle and greco more will enhance results. Wrestling it less is not directly helping us. It doesn't kill us, obviously, but it isn't helping. That's all just my silly opinion.

 

[CropDuster507]

Also, we get upset at the takedown, lace, 10-0 techs... It's because we suck at par terre defense, overall. The highest level figures it out because they're receiving high level coaching, but it's very apparent at lower levels and the lesser-successful senior athletes. And again, it is because we value folkstyle mat wrestling over freestyle/greco par terre offense and defense.

 

[matter7172]

My point wasn't to trigger a freestyle v folk debate, but rather to point out that recent results greatly undermine an argument many critics of folk have made over the years, namely that US, by continuing to adhere to folk, was lowering its ceiling in freestyle.

Re Sadulaev and Snyder, the scramble may have started out in neutral but they wound up on the mat and once there Snyder didn't know what to do and it cost him the title. After watching it a few times it seems like had opportunities to get to his stomach but he never tried. He instead held on to Sadulaev like he was maybe going to turn his predicament into offense of his own and then again had no response when Sadulaev turned into him. And I think it's fair to attribute all this to the distinct possibility that despite being a wrestler from the US, he's really not a folkstyle wrestler. Thus my point about irony.

I think the argument that folkstyle wrestling somehow weakened our freestyle wrestling was always a red herring. Certainly the results as far back as 1972 called it into question. But that was easier than saying our wrestlers weren't good enough.

The touch pin rule makes it really difficult when you are exposed in the way Snyder was. You can't, for example, roll through on the move because you are automatically pinned. I'd have to watch it again, but I think Snyder's escape route was by rolling through his back in that situation.

 

[CJF_Said_The_Great_Joe_Paterno]

You evidently haven't been paying close attention to how Penn State's style of wrestling is changing the landscape of college wrestling.

First, I think the "style" of Folk wrestling you are referring to (i.e., extremely aggressive, stresses offense, translates well to Free due to it's stressing aggression especially in neutral, etc...) is not something that PSU is inventing per se - and I think Cael would very much agree as he alluded to in his statements when he took the PSU job (and why he took the job)... it is much more accurately referred to as the "Pennsylvania Style" of folk and has been around for a long time (again, as even Cael alluded to in his statements when he took the PSU job). This is the way I was taught to wrestle as a scholastic wrestler growing up in NW Pennsylvania (both folk and free).

I said I'm a huge fan of wrestling - both Folk and Free. What I'm not a fan of is Folk Wrestlers AND Coaches who selectively wish to bastardize the clear SPIRIT AND INTENT of the rules from which Folk was created. The rules of wrestling INCLUDING FOLK require that BOTH wrestlers shoot AND sustain 50% of the INITIATED offensive action in "Neutral" (i.e., illegal to only counter, let alone intentionally stall). Again, simply failing to initiate 50% of the bonafide shots (i.e., faux half-shots don't count) and only countering (especially when the counter results in one stalemate after another) is absolutely STALLING and AGAINST THE RULES. Folk needs to be much more proactive, vigilant and assertive to make sure that the MORE AGGRESSIVE wrestler is rewarded in the 1st Period - it is ridiculous that we see so mant 0-0 matches coming out of the first period in matches between highly ranked opponents imho...this generally is rewarding the less aggressive, passive, overly-defensive wrestler, when THE RULES say the diametric opposite is supposed to occur (i.e., the more aggressive wrestler is supposed to be rewarded with penalty points, if nothing else, if their opponent refuses to initiate 50% of the offensive action - and again, a "counter" - regardless of how good - does not count as initiating offense.). Heck, I'd even be in favor of rewarding 2-Points to the wrestler who INITIATES the most offensive shots (full shots only which is easily defined) or throws (including trips, etc...).

 

[nerfstate]

Also, we get upset at the takedown, lace, 10-0 techs... It's because we suck at par terre defense, overall. The highest level figures it out because they're receiving high level coaching, but it's very apparent at lower levels and the lesser-successful senior athletes. And again, it is because we value folkstyle mat wrestling over freestyle/greco par terre offense and defense.

Don’t you feel that this is starting to change with our RTC system? Seems there is a growing number of people with much improved par terre technique. Maybe only at the highest level I suppose. But DT throwing in that bow & arrow was a real highlight for me. Not to mention his high gut to clinch it. And Dake, well, damn. Then turn to Marky, Zahid, Spencer, Daton, Yianni... All with fantastic par terre options. I think we can have our cake and eat it too.

 

[CropDuster507]

Don’t you feel that this is starting to change with our RTC system? Seems there is a growing number of people with much improved par terre technique. Maybe only at the highest level I suppose. But DT throwing in that bow & arrow was a real highlight for me. Not to mention his high gut to clinch it. And Dake, well, damn. Then turn to Marky, Zahid, Spencer, Daton, Yianni... All with fantastic par terre options. I think we can have our cake and eat it too.

Yes, Zeke Jones and the RTC system has changed American wrestling for the better, no question. That's why I hate hearing that some coaches wanna kill them because they don't wanna work to build one. Even the teams that struggle in Div 1 could build one, with effort. I love what Penn RTC and NJRTC are doing. They knew it wasn't probable on their own. They paired up, figured it out, and now all can recruit with that feather in their hat. Awesome.

But again, I can't say, "Wrestling another style has helped us in Olympic styles." It hasn't killed us. We've adapted, definitely, but I feel we could do even better.

The hard part is Greco. It doesn't translate as well. They're last in the WC for a reason in Hungary... That country cares about Greco. I don't think RTC's will ever help Greco unless certain ones dedicate themselves to Greco and we put in coaches who can develop Greco wrestlers at them. NMU is producing world team members more than everyone else for a reason.

 

[CJF_Said_The_Great_Joe_Paterno]

riding can appear to be boring but if easy everyone would do it. It is an art and skill. I like folk and free, but to me wrestling is demonstrated by all 3 skills - getting control, escaping from being controlled, and controlling. Of course the latter should include looking for a fall and there are rules trying to enforce that. Guess it will never be a perfect sport.

Not the point I'm making - never said it was easy (didn't even imply it) or that it wasn't a skill....merely pointed out that claiming "this skill", which is utterly irrelevant (and certainly not rewarded with points, let aline being the deciding factor in a match) in the rules which Folk was spawned from, should be made to be the "paramount" skill in deciding matches and "chapions" (which is precisely what happens when you reward zero-offense, overly-defensive, passive, stall-by-strategy in Neutral wrestlers).

The rules of wrestling, INCLUDING FOLK, require BOTH wrestlers to initiate offensive action on a constant basis AND require that each wrestler initiate 50% of that offensive action (i.e., it is illegal to be a counter wrestler only from Neutral - and if you wrestle this way you are supposed to be penalized and the more aggressive wrestler is supposed to be clearly rewarded/advantaged). Folk - especially when Officials are regionally biased toward the passive, overly-defensive wrestler - does not enforce these FUNDAMENTAL RULES of wrestling strictly and consitently enough. IOW, the reward for the more aggressive wrestler, especially in the all important 1st Period of Folk Matches, needs to be made much more definitive, objective and quantifiable taking the "subjectivity" out of the equation which is currently in Folk Officials hands and who are batardizing the Fundametal Prohibitions against passivity and stalling in favor of "their preferred wrestler".

 

[danoftw]

Good one!

BTW, your avatar is scary/disturbing enough to give a (wild at) heart attack!

I wanted to ask you about your name. Probably 2 years ago my kid was telling me about these super heroes called Section 8 and his favorite guy was named Dogwelder. He didn't talk at all and he welded dogs to the bad guys faces. I had even told him Dogwelder was on the wrestling forum i followed..

 

[Dogwelder]

Dear Dan of Taiwan, your kid has great taste in superheroes and absurdism! I too am enamored of welding dogs to bad guys, and so I dedicate my online efforts to supporting that cause. I understand Sadulaev has perfected reverse dog welding from below—I hope Snyder is prepared!

 

[PSUcup1]

I like the RT point. Granted I don't like to see a guy ride without even trying to turn but if you can keep a guy down for 1 min, it effectively wipes out one of his escape points and that can change the flow of the match completely. I agree that the referee needs to monitor it and call stalling on top when needed, I think this has actually improved lately.

A wrestler at the B1G level should be able to escape and not be ridden. As an aside, if you are so bad at escaping that you have to choose neutral in an intra squad meet, you aren't winning a national title

Also, one of the best PSU matches of all time may not have been so without the RT point.

I wouldn’t mind seeing the RT point rule kept, but amended. Maybe you can only accrue riding time after scoring a TD or reversal.

Or the RT clock is kept as is, but in order to be awarded points a wrestler must also score NF points as well.

 

[PSUbluTX]

Dang, watch this. Even bigger fan of this woman now, puts the disappointment in major perspective (Helen lost her first bout today and won’t place)

Wow, she’s very impressive.

 

[Dogwelder]

the russians doing russian things

View embedded media

The Gypsies inspired a verb “gyp”, as in “he gypped me out of a dollar.” Perhaps the Russians are inspiring a verb, “ruus”, pronounced “roos”, as in “they ruused us out of a gold medal. Again.”

I’m serious, we should use this word whenever applicable.

 

[Dogwelder]

The Gypsies inspired a verb “gyp”, as in “he gypped me out of a dollar.” Perhaps the Russians are inspiring a verb, “ruus”, pronounced “roos”, as in “they ruused us out of a gold medal. Again.”

I’m serious, we should use this word whenever applicable.

Maybe that proposed word is too obscure. We should just keep it simple: “they russia’ed a guy out of a gold medal. Again.”

 

[Lyons212]

While I’m not at all a fan of the assumption that Folk must over time morph into Free, you aren’t wrong. I for one would welcome the end of the riding time point. And much more aggressive stall calls would be great too, if applied evenly and fairly.

Re Snyder vs Sudalaev: I think Tikk was pointing out that US focus on Freestyle techniques in many places do not focus on mat scrambling. It seems to be THE primary focus at NLWC, where many other places (to over generalize) focus on hi c drills, head/hands, etc. These scramble situations arise more frequently at lower levels of competition, because elite defense is a baseline at the senior level. But I think it’s pretty clear that if you’re committed to applying great scrambles T the senior level, it can be a winning approach. Kyle said he’d never seen that move before. How is that possible? I bet DT saw it recently.

I don't think you need to get rid of the riding time point, possibly it could be modified that riding time can only be gained after the wrestler has achieved the top position after a takedown or reversal.

Another possibility for riding time is that after a wrestler is in the top position they have 30 seconds to gain near fall points or at a minimum have the possibility of gaining near fall points. If not, back to neutral.

 

[nerfstate]

Keeping the Nickalism to the front.

 

[a_mshaffer]

I don't think you need to get rid of the riding time point, possibly it could be modified that riding time can only be gained after the wrestler has achieved the top position after a takedown or reversal.

Another possibility for riding time is that after a wrestler is in the top position they have 30 seconds to gain near fall points or at a minimum have the possibility of gaining near fall points. If not, back to neutral.

then you get the bottom guy blatantly stalling...

 

[RoarLions1]

Keeping the rules simple, riding time included, are critical. The referee's job is already difficult, and some fans b&m about their calls now. K-I-S-S principle.

 

[nerfstate]

Hey @CropDuster507 What's your take on this hot take with regard to Greco's prep plan? Just curious since I don't feel in touch at all w/ Greco.

 

[SRATH]

That does sound awful. We need to pump up the slush fund and bring Greco to SC. If I win one of these lottery things with 40 of my work mates, I’ll write the first check.

 

[CropDuster507]

Hey @CropDuster507 What's your take on this hot take with regard to Greco's prep plan? Just curious since I don't feel in touch at all w/ Greco.

View embedded media

Man, where do I start? First off, from everything I've read on 5PM and other resources, yes.. they were at a camp. It was as "intense" as those guys wanted to make it, from what I read. They did a few other camps to get ready, as well, including base camp. The main reason they were at the big foreign camp, I can only assume, is so that they got foreign feels before the Championships. I'm pretty sure they were on their own in the afternoons, for pete's sake.

Jesse seems very... opinionated. He might not get along with Lindland and Co. He seems like a guy who wants to do things his way, which is whatever, but from my very limited dealings and listens to Lindland, he's trying to build a program where everyone is together. He wants to keep Greco guys on the Greco side, and give them a place where they feel they belong, if that makes sense. And again, that's all just my assumption from the way they've been moving. Jesse trains at Legends of Gold in South Dakota with Terry Pack, and I'm sure they probably do things differently. Fact of the matter is, we ain't done jack squat at the world level in a while as a team, and you have to change the way you train to change the result.

Theilke seems upset and pissed about losing. He seems like he wants to move forward. This interview, makes it sound like he's skirting the blame a bit, though, too.

Things need to change from what they were. I think NMU, Lindland, Mayabb, Hermann, and Bisek are all moving in the right direction. I'm not blindly-implying that USA is right and Jesse is wrong, but if nobody else complains, I have skeptical feelings about his interview.

The future is coming, though. Just gotta keep getting Greco guys to stay on the Greco side and developing them. I think they can develop. I think there's work being done to keeping them on the side. Now, it's just about developing to a WORLD/OLYMPIC level of success.

That's my $17.82 worth.

 

[Ja1339]

Re Snyder vs Sudalaev: Kyle said he’d never seen that move before. How is that possible? I bet DT saw it recently.

Bo stuck that move against a 1st grader way back in the day. His poor opponent never saw it coming....and he cried all the way home.

#thatswhatwedo