I thought it enhanced your point. Even Cael and Gable aren't 4x B10 qualifiers.
Noteworthy Results & Goldfish Games: Week of 1/6 - 1/9
- Thread starter slushhead
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Yours (or someone's) next post should include a link to a comprehensive Google sheet of all defined criteria, scoring method for each criteria, and the relative weight of importance of the criteria by which the GOAT should be determined. It should include each alternative GOAT scored using the method you've defined, weighting the criteria and providing the weighted sum. List the results in rank order of their weighted scores.
Please ensure all criteria are unique / orthogonal (i.e.,no double counting) and the integrity of the relative values of their weighting (i.e., each weighting makes sense in comparison to the others). Then perform a sensitivity analysis and explain why the resulting GOAT order is sound or where it might change with reasonable but different weighting of criteria importance.
If you do this, I might believe you've actually analyzed this somewhat objectively. Until then I will continue to believe you are near wholly subjectively SWAGging it, because you like to argue... just as all others likely are.
Thanks ahead of time.
Man, I wish WrestleStat went back in history that far and we could settle this question once and for all. 🤣
I think we all recognize the subjectivity required in these discussions. I don't think anyone is saying that win/loss/pin totals directly determine where someone ranks all time.
Generally, you need something objective to enter the conversation. And I'd say Nolf's 2017-2019 seasons, which all ended in championships and featured only a single injury-default defeat (he was leading at the time), puts him in that conversation. If we're getting really subjective and knee deep in context, Jason Nolf only left the mat having been outscored by his opponent one time - the NCAA final vs Imar. His only other non-injury default loss was a due to OT riding time differential, also to Imar (and I realize this probably isn't news to you).
Considering that, I don't think it is that unreasonable or simply homerism to think, on the whole, Jason Nolf's NCAA career was "better" than Spencer Lee's. And to be fair I think it's entirely reasonable to argue the other too.
Hahah. It did. Imagine not even qualifying for 1 and somehow have any claim to GOAT.
At the very least, I think we can objectively say Nolf was a better teammate and team leader than Spencer is
Yet, he couldn't make the cadet team. Daton Fix says 👋
Wrestling is a tough sport. Injuries happen. There is always pickle ball
Daton Fix is a world silver Medalist while still ncaa eligible, according to js8675308 Fix is a better college wrestler then S Lee.
Discussing greatest of all-time no matter the considered data is subjective. Is Cael greater than Bill Koll or Yojiro Uetake or Gable or Schalles or Borroughs or John Smith or Randy Lewis. Hell, I am an older Penn Stater, Andy Matter? The answer is always personal/subjective. Data chosen to measure is always subjective.
An objective answer can only be obtained to a very specific question that is defined by the subjectively selected parameters.
What is funny is watching you think you are dancing circles around the others participating in this discussion, while in reality you are simply spinning yourself around in circles.
The answer to the question, "who is the greatest 4 time ncaa champ", based upon highest winning percentage.
The answer is Cael.
Assuming Spencer and Yianni win out to their 4th there will be 6. Ranked.
1. Cael 1.000
2. Yiani 0.982 give or take
3. Steiner 0.975
4. Dake 0.971
5. Spencer 0.958 give or take
6. Smith 0.953
All objective.
We can ask the GOAT question with an infinite number of subjectively selected measuring parameters and only a relative few will measure Spencer in the top half of this very select and special group.
If we aren't allowed to cherry pick any one particular category/statistic to determine who is the greatest, I need to add one to the list.
How many times has Spencer been tired in a college wrestling match? Let me think...
1, 2, 3... too many to count.
Has Nolf ever been tired in his life?
How many times has Spencer been tired in a college wrestling match? Let me think...
1, 2, 3... too many to count.
Has Nolf ever been tired in his life?
Maybe he wouldn't have been so dominant if he wrestled within his body's ability to not tear up his knees.
Dake had bonus victories in 60% of his victories (83 bonus victories), including 44 pins. His dominance ranking trails only Yianni and (barely) Gabe Dean in the Cornell record book. 18 pins in 37 matches his senior year.
Both Brooks and Cstar can win 5 titles right? I thought they are the same year eligibility wise, but PSU lists Brooks as a SR and Cstar as a JR.
Are they the only ones?
yes you're right this whole thing went way off the rails. the point i wanted to make is that the normal goat discussion is boring and it's more fun to debate who is a purely better wrestler at their peak, which is totally subjective. that's the discussion i wanted to have.
why do you think nolf is better or not? for me, i think nolf is better on their feet. both score with ease offensively, but we don't see spencer counter the same way. nolf is also a better pinner and overall more dangerous from neutral. but i think spencer is far better on top. and the gap between them on the mat is bigger than the gap between them on their feet, so spencer gets the edge.
does anyone want to give an alternative read? what about nolf's skills elevates him over spencer? not a facetious question.
Think of a 1500m running race. A guy busts out the first 1200m to a huge lead, only to pull his hamstring and limp the last 300. Would he have won and not gotten injured had he not gone out too hard?
Perhaps Spencer wrestled too hard to be so dominant, only to have the wear-and-tear hold him back now (due to those knee injuries). Would he have had those knee injuries had he wrestled less "dominantly?"
But this hinges on the notion that every wrestler has the ability to be as dominant as Spencer, but chooses not to in order to extend their career longevity.
Subjectively, that's ridiculous.
Brooks freshman year, 2020, is when Covid hit and he got an additional year but lost out on 2020's NCAA'S. So only 4 possible for Aaron.
Teammate development:At the very least, I think we can objectively say Nolf was a better teammate and team leader than Spencer is
DeSanto moved to Iowa, 1 weight from Lee. Best finish 3rd. Winless against opponents who wrestled with 1 hand behind their backs.
Zain moved to 1 weight from Nolf. 94-0, 3x champ, 2x Hodge.
Advantage Nolf.
Aaron could have had a shot at 5 X B1G champ before he lost to Amine in the finals last year.
I'm bitter? lmao. Yeah...ok. Btw, if you're going to claim no one cares what I say over there, it would probably be best if you don't respond to me when I call you a hypocrite or point out all the foolish shit you and the others say over there. That makes you look dumb.
Ok. I think I got it. The difference being Cstar was red shirting and Brooks was using a year of eligibility during the 19-20 season.
Interesting. I've always thought of @johnstownsteel as more of a "chugs his beer" than "hold my beer" guy.
untying the sweater around his neck as we speak, ready for a brawl
You’re arguing Spencer vs Nolf now but I’m pushing back on your earlier Snyder vs Nolf argument. There’s no way you can argue that Snyder was the more dominant folkstyle wrestler than Nolf. They’re not even in the same area code in folkstyle dominance.
I think this conversation has led to this: How many goats will fit in your anus? You guys are just not causing this thread to go off the rails yet.
Under what statistical category was he the better folksyle wrestler?
Same number of championships. Same number of finals. Nolf scored a ton more bonus points and total points at NCAAs.
Nolf had more wins.
Nolf had fewer losses.
Nolf out pinned him 60-7.
What possible measure could make a legitimate argument that Snyder was a better FOLKSTYLE wrestler than Nolf?
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