Show me where I posted that Nolf should be ahead of Lee. I'm specifically talking about Dake as #2. I'm not getting into the Nolf/Lee debate.
Noteworthy Results & Goldfish Games: Week of 1/6 - 1/9
- Thread starter slushhead
- Start date
You’re absolutely correct. Cherry-picking stats would imply picking a specific range of results, such as a wrestler’s record for an 18 month span, versus the entire career. Using career wins or career losses is most definitely not cherry-picking.
that's actually my point. when you insist on the "data driven" method, you don't give yourself room to make subjective judgments that are necessary when you actually want the truth. the only way the data method would truly work is if everybody wrestled the exact schedule at the same weight at the same time.
my method allows for you to subjectively think nolf is better than spencer. i disagree, but it's a judgment call.
199 posts for someone to get it right. Lol.
Incorrect use of the term. It’s all relevant data. A wrestler’s career record is not some obscure stat. Not that hard to follow.
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My 1 extremely dominant tournament quote was about his freshman year. I was trying to figure out Spencer’s peak and I believe it was his freshman year but looking deeper it was really just the national tournament where he was extremely dominant. He took 2 losses and didn’t win Big 10’s that year. Yes, he has obviously been dominant in other tournaments over his career but that wasn’t what I was debating. I was going along with your argument that this debate should be about one’s peak. I am so curious to see how Spencer does post college. Not that it should but I’m pretty sure it will have a huge impact on how his career is viewed. I personally don’t see him making world teams and with his injury history I think his international career will be very short. Probably give it a go and not make the team for worlds this coming year or the Olympics the following and then hangs it up. Right now I think Gilman is a definite favorite and probably Suriano as well even though I would love for Spencer to destroy him
To get it almost right. Van Brill has the most B10 Tournament appearances on that list.
I don't really disagree with you here, but I think this conversation has gone in so many different directions it's hard to follow any one singular "point".
I guess we have different uses for the phrase "cherry picking". I tend to think of that as associated with disingenuous or bad-faith arguments. If someone were to cite "third period scoring" or something like that, I would consider that cherry picking. Citing career wins and losses, however, seems entirely appropriate when comparing the careers of two wrestlers.
In general, this is basically a sports-radio argument not unlike Lebron vs Jordan or Peyton vs Brady.
Subjectively, then, Spencer has competed at 125 his entire career. And at the lowest weight possible his entire freestyle career. If you are a top 10ish GOAT guy, then it is probably expected that you TF anyone outside of the top 3 in the first period.
A top 3 GOAT guy should probably have pinned EVERYONE. Yet, somehow Spencer lost to Rivera twice, got decked by Piccinnini and lost to RONNIE BRESSER.
How's that for subjective?
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I would put DT over Dake except for the unfortunate head to head which Dake won. Can’t really put someone ahead of another with most other stats being fairly equal when they lost their only head to head match. So see your argument here really makes zero sense. Some of your others are decent but this one is bad
Now, now Dice. Don’t talk about career losses because that’s “cherry-picking”, according to our esteemed guest Hawkeye poster. Aka known as any data at all that doesn’t support Spencer’s case.😉
In all seriousness, I don’t know how you can compare their college folkstyle careers (only) and conclude that Snyder was the better folksyle wrestler.
Unless bonus points mean nothing. And even then it’s only closer.
you guys act like i'm elevating spencer. my method/argument significantly drops him, including below at least 1 if not 2 psu wrestlers. but you guys can't see past the fan dynamic. i just don't think nolf is better.
You are allowed to be wrong. It will be ok.
NEVER STOP POSTING NEVER SURRENDER
Unless your jts over on HR...
Maybe its his 87 falls and tech falls. Think about that; 117 wins and only 30 went seven mins.
You’re arguing guys with fewer than 87 wins are better. You’ve even argued that a guy with 7 career pins was better. 7 vs 60. Come on. That’s three raccoons.
At some point volume counts too. It’s a lot easier to lose fewer matches when you wrestle fewer matches.
Your posting history just in this thread says otherwise.
And yet Spencer found a way to get it done!
I want to apologize to the board for quoting obscure wrestling statistics like wins, losses and pins.
College football's eye test has always been more important than results.
Penn State winning the 87 title over Miami only because Penn State beat Miami has pissed off the college football hierarchy ever since.
By insisting the entire picture be considered you are cherry picking. Don't you know?
the entire picture is considered. but titles are the most important stat if you go down that road. if spencer wins this year, the only way you can put nolf ahead of him is if you use my more subjective method. just embrace it folks. i'm trying to help you out.
If Spencer ends up losing, I want you to use caution if you pull this thread back up to remind him he was wrong. He will accuse you of taking enjoyment in Spencer's injuries.
Given that this thread has morphed into a GOAT discussion far afield of the thread’s stated purpose, perhaps it’s time to rename it or start a new one that will better direct discussion traffic to this interesting but unresolvable topic. Might I suggest a title something like:
“The Great Wrestling GOAT Debate: Why My Subjective Takes, Favored Data Points, and Personal Preferences are Better Than Yours”
“The Great Wrestling GOAT Debate: Why My Subjective Takes, Favored Data Points, and Personal Preferences are Better Than Yours”
19-1 and while we are talking about competition, Nolf has 2 wins over former National champions. Martinez, who he is 1-3 against and Deakin. Spencer has beaten Suriano (2 time national champ and 3 time finalist) and Tomasello 1 time national champ and 3 time third place finisher). Yet the argument is that Lee has his titles because of inferior competition?
jts is bitter because i made fun of his schtick over on HR and reminded him nobody cares or feels bad when he calls them a hypocrite-something he brags about endlessly on here for some reason - and now he's whining over here too lol
just as an example, what if i say that the true mark of dominance is first period stoppages? because spencer has more than Nolf already despite 40 less matches. nearly double the rate. it's a lot harder to manhandle people before they get tired right?
we always have to decide which statistics mean more than others. but if you're going to go down that road, the ultimate statistic is titles. you'll be hard pressed to argue a couple losses outweigh an extra title. all the other stats will end up being similar.
Tea
Team sports. Not even close to the same thing. Plus we are talking about careers not 1 season. I’m assuming that Alabama and Tennessee have played each other the past few seasons as well and that Alabama won. Definitely doesn’t fit the argument between Dake and DT
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He has faced inferior competition. Yes at the top end they both beat 2 national champions but the depth at 157 is absolutely better than at 125. 125 in Spencer’s freshman year was very good but last year and this year it is horrible. And the argument isn’t that he has those titles because of inferior competition it is just part of the discussion. I think the main point is that he has 5 losses in a weight that overall is much weaker. 5 losses with WAY fewer overall matches and he got decked by a good but definitely not great opponent. That is the argument. Nolf is 1-2 against IMar by the way, not 1-3 and those are his only 2 actual losses.
