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Final X Matchups

the one thing not being considered is the scoreboard being correct. I am not saying it was in this case but often the score isn't appropriately recorded -one can understand when there are a lot of signals being flashed at you. Regardless, when do you ask that the scoreboard be verified? If that is a challenge, then how do the brick rules apply?
Not a bad inquiry, and decent point. However, being the sequence never stopped, asking if the score is correct at the end of the match would likely do nothing. That is like, the one question you're allowed to ask ("Is the score on the board correct?") without throwing the brick or getting a yellow card for approaching the table. However, I think given the timing of it (end of the match), it wouldn't be applicable, here.
 
No real idea what the USOC will do here but if I was counseling them I'd caution them to reserve overturning results to only the most extreme scenarios, where the miscarriage of justice was blindingly clear. This scenario isn't that, with legitimate competing interpretations running in both directions. Optics likely play a big part in the USOC's calculus and to that end I'm fairly certain they prefer the choice that doesn't imply that things aren't running smoothly. Bottom line is that if there was a real sense that Yianni got robbed because he otherwise beat Zain, there might be an appetite to overturn, but Zain was better in both matches that day.
Yup. No harm, no foul. Small harm, no foul. Merely theoretical harm, no foul. (Koll is a weenie, no foul. :) )
 
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I just listened to FRL. They admit they don't know all the rules, but finish by saying there should be a third match. The officials conferenced and decided on the two for Zain. They did not agree on a 2 and 2. So, FRL is making the decision they know how to score a sequence better than seasoned officials. I think it is unfortunate that they could not start the time back like they do in folkstyle. However if that is not an option, it isn't an option. To just declare Yianni the winner based on how they think it should be scored is typical for them. "We don't know the rules, and am not sure if they can do this, but what the heck! Yianni should have won!" :confused::mad:

If they have to wrestle again, they need to re-do match 2, and Zain is winning 1 match to nothing.
 
the one thing not being considered is the scoreboard being correct. I am not saying it was in this case but often the score isn't appropriately recorded -one can understand when there are a lot of signals being flashed at you. Regardless, when do you ask that the scoreboard be verified? If that is a challenge, then how do the brick rules apply?

I personally couldn't find anything on the scoreboard in the rules, but didn't read it cover to cover:
https://unitedworldwrestling.org/sites/default/files/2017-12/wrestling_rules_2018_2.pdf

My personal view now, though, of the whole situation (warning: I'm not an expert), having read a good chunk of the rule book and after reading more and more commentary, is that it actually may be counterproductive to try to understand what happened in the Zain-Yianni bout via rules interpretations or to try to find a violation by combing through the rules.

The UWW rules can be very vague in some places and far from comprehensive other places, and I think that's intentional: officials, in practice, just have a ton of leeway and discretion as to how they administer and call a match in the UWW officiating framework. There's literally no post-match protest procedure at all. Essentially, the refs get to decide:

Article 54 – The Protest: No protest after the end of a match or any appeal before CAS or any other jurisdiction against a decision made by the refereeing body may be lodged. Under no circumstances may the result of a match be modified after victory has been declared on the mat.

If the UWW President or the responsible person for refereeing notes that the refereeing body have abused their power to modify a match result, they can examine the video and, with the agreement of the UWW Bureau, sanction those responsible as laid down in the provisions of the Regulations for International Refereeing Body.

"Abuse of power" in the second paragraph above strikes me as a very high burden of proof...Basically, it seems there would have to be obvious corruption on a very high profile stage in order for the UWW President to get involved. And that wouldn't change a match result- a ref would just get a sanctioned after the fact. Plus, did anyone ever get sanctioned for Olympics ref-matching/stacking scandal? I'm not aware if so (still waiting on Foley to inform us ;)).

On Twitter, Foley argued that what seem to be rules in the UWW International Wrestling Rules book are, in practice, more "guidelines" to "provide texture"-- even when they are extremely explicit, evidently. And, despite initially thinking that's ridiculous, I think he may well be correct in terms of the actual application of the rule book to real in-match officiating.

As pertains this match, using that framework, I think the "2 & 2" call, which procedurally went against the scoring "rules" may simply have been deamed to be sensible to the officials. There's no indication that they were planning to conference to change "an incorrect score"- they may well have been satisfied with the call. The challenge wasn't 5 seconds after the score was posted, but the scramble was long, so to them it seemed sensible to forego that "rule" and to accept the block , even if the concept of a "scoring sequence" isn't referenced in the rule book.

Maybe another crew would have done things differently on multiple fronts, but thats what you get-- the power is really vested in the refs to use their discretion, and, not in the rules, given that a.) the rules are weak in many places and b.) there really is no protest or even threat of repercussions in UWW. I'd rather have guys wrestling for 45+ seconds understanding the score or at least being notified that something that occured recently will be reviewed, but for reasons that seem broadly sensible this crew priortized other principles of the competition in the way they handled it.

It's not exactly a "rule of law" mentality, but this is the same organization, after all, that violated it's own seeding and bracket procedures at World's last year when it pulled Sadulaev and Snyder out of the bracket draw to pre-emptively put them on opposite sides because that final suited their interests. How do you think Taylor and Yazdani felt about that (also world #1 and #2 drawn to face each other in Round 1), or, the other competitors that actually traveled around the world to the ranking events to accumulate the points they were told they needed to be seeded?

This isn't the type of attitude we typically expect in high level athletics and I do think at the highest of levels fans and competitors deserve better- particularly with a more flushed out set of rules that are actually treated like "rules" in practice. Of course, even in the NFL, there's no recourse or "do over" for a blatenly bad call that violates rules that have to be followed. That's sports and the concept of a "do-over" match/game doesn't seem to have much precedent in the rest of the sporting world (outside of failed drug tests).

Too long. In summary: None of this is to say that USA Wrestling or the body that's being appealed to won't view things differently, but when you adopt the UWW ruleset, it seems you inherently accepting a massive amount of referee discretion as well and may ultimately have to yield to or respect that discretion...even when you disagree or it seems the "rules/guidelines" aren't being followed to the letter.

Maybe that's all wrong tho.
 
I may have missed it in the murk of this & other discussions about the Y-Z match but do we know the reason the brick was thrown by Cody? Or are we just making guesses as to the reason it was thrown?
 
I may have missed it in the murk of this & other discussions about the Y-Z match but do we know the reason the brick was thrown by Cody? Or are we just making guesses as to the reason it was thrown?

There are a few videos going around of the end of the match- here’s one by TMWC I could find easily that has Casey, I believe, challenging and saying, “It wasn’t 2-2, it was 2 red. The first one.”

As to the implications, or lack thereof, I have no clue. All that’s clear to me is that USA Wrestling should use a more explicit rule book domestically if UWW insists on keeping their their pretty painfully inadequate one!

 
I may have missed it in the murk of this & other discussions about the Y-Z match but do we know the reason the brick was thrown by Cody? Or are we just making guesses as to the reason it was thrown?


Moot point, the three officials could not agree on the scoring sequence, and were going to review it anyway.
Brick wasnt even necessary.
 
Moot point, the three officials could not agree on the scoring sequence, and were going to review it anyway.
Brick wasnt even necessary.
No way the coaches could be sure it would be reviewed. The question still could be raised if the brick was thrown to challenge the score offered by the mat official or because the score was incorrect on the scoreboard or both.
 
No way the coaches could be sure it would be reviewed. The question still could be raised if the brick was thrown to challenge the score offered by the mat official or because the score was incorrect on the scoreboard or both.

Yeah, I dont blame them for throwing it, as at the time, they prolly didnt realize that the officials were going to review it anyway.

My point was more aimed at the people who are claiming the brick came too late, or “ why didnt they throw it after a break in the action”?
 
Standard procedure, i thought

Waiting...

Heh, I'll take the bait, but this is my understanding of the standard processes and the complications/confusion in this bout:

Normal Consultation Situation:
1.) In event of a "serious scoring mistake by the referee/and or judge, the Mat Chairman must ask for a consultation." This is "majority rules" or, if no majority is obtained, the Chairman rules. I do believe this language pertains to how a move is scored.

2.) A consultation between the refereeing body (Ref, Mat Judge, Chairman) does not consist of a video review. I do not believe the Ref or Judge ever see a video in matches in any circumstance?

3.) But, the results of a consulation can be challenged by either team, triggering a video review (which is performed by the Refereeing Delegate who consults with the Chairman.

That's at least how I read the rulebook..

This Situation:
1.) The Chairman is directed to choose between either the scoring of the Ref or Mat Judge if they score it differently.

2.) Here, the Chairman went 2 & 2 on "the call" while the Ref went 2 blue and the Judge went 2 Red. If this was a mistake by the Chairman (which would seem odd given his experience and the simplicity of his directed tasks) or if it was an intentional "override," or a move to force a consulation, I don't know. It's fuzzy the amount of discretion the officials are given in practice, imo.

3.) Ideally, no score would be posted in this situation if it was in error and the Refereeing Body would move to consultation to resolve the issue at the next stop in action. Then, a score would be posted that could be challenged to video review.

4.) However, in this case, the Judge, who mans the scoreboard, posted 2 & 2 in real time. He initially scored it 2 Red with his paddle, so if the scoreboard posting was a mistake or if it was a revision + deliberate siding with the Chairman (who has ultimate say in a consultation), I don't know. Maybe the 2 & 2 was a placeholder to force a consultation. All fuzzy, and I think discretion beyond the rulebook plays a role.

5.) In short, in this match, it is unclear to me at least a.) how the posted score, whether intentional or not, affected the ability for the refereeing body to consult on the scoring sequence and, b.) whether or not the refereeing body even considered there to be a scoring mistake at all or if they "patched it up" in real time.

Maybe they did decide to consult, came away with 2 & 2, and that triggered a new challengable situation, for which they accepted Zain's brick.

Or, maybe that's all overthinking (most likely scenario) and none of that factored in and they simply judged that the long scramble/scoring sequence situation nullifies the 5 second challenge rule.

The latter is at least what Foley argues is international convention and is also inline with the conversations Koll recounted in his version of events.

Either seems defensible to me, ultimately, but wrestling shouldn't be so confusing...
 
Just cut the cord and got an amazon stick and am excited to watch Final X on the big screen.
 
This may have already been mentioned, but . . . .

On a recent FRL episode, they said that the Yianni camp (aka Koll) has acknowledged that if the decision is made in favor of Yianni, that Zain and Yianni would have to re-wrestle the entire second match before a third one even happens (if it happens). The reason is that UWW rules state that once a wrestler's hand has been raised in victory that is final (and the outcome itself can't be changed in favor of the other wrestler). That is, unless there is some procedural appeal of the whole match (in which case you re-wrestle that match).
 
If, after this dispute is resolved, there is a rule change, I think it should be named "The XYZ Rule"

Final X & Y (for Yianni) & Z (for Zain)
 
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Tonight's order, a half hour away.

Session Two – 6 PM CT

Bout 1: Women’s FS 62 kg – Mallory Velte (Titan Mercury WC) vs. Kayla Miracle (Sunkist Kids/Hawkeye WC)

Bout 2: Women’s FS 53 kg – Sarah Hildebrandt (New York AC/OTC) vs. Katherine Shai (Titan Mercury WC)

Bout 3: Women’s FS 76 kg – Adeline Gray (New York AC) vs. Precious Bell (Titan Mercury WC)

Bout 4: Men’s GR 130 kg – Adam Coon (New York AC/Cliff Keen WC) vs. Cohlton Schultz (Sunkist Kids/EAP)

Bout 5: Men’s FS 61 kg – Joe Colon (Titan Mercury WC/Valley RTC) vs. Tyler Graff (Titan Mercury WC/NJRTC)

Bout 6: Men’s FS 97 kg – Kyle Snyder (Titan Mercury WC/Ohio RTC) vs. Kyven Gadson (Sunkist Kids WC/Cyclone RTC)

Bout 7: Men’s FS 70 kg – Ryan Deakin (Titan Mercury WC/Chicago RTC) vs. James Green (Sunkist Kids/Nebraska WTC)

Bout 8: Men’s FS 57 kg – Daton Fix (Titan Mercury WC/Cowboy RTC) vs. Thomas Gilman (Titan Mercury WC/Hawkeye WC)

Bout 9: Men’s FS 74 kg – Jordan Burroughs (Sunkist Kids/Nebraska WTC) vs. Isaiah Martinez (Titan Mercury WC/Illinois RTC)
 
Hildebrandt beats Shai 3-0. It was difficult to tell them apart but for the singlets, they had identical styles, leading to numerous stalemates. Hildebrandt went behind on a slopped late shot to seal it.
 
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Gray with the pin of Bell. After getting a single Gray looked to crank an arm bar, then tilted the other way for some exposure points before finally turning in to finish her.
 
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Cohlton Schultz is gigantic, doesn't look to be giving any pounds to Coon. Laudible afro as well, but it's not enough as Coon gets two after Schultz doesn't have nearly as much of that headlock he thought he had, then tilts him to go up 6-0. Another TD ends it.
 
Colon and Graff. PBP might not be feasible here, I can only type 60wpm.

10 point tech should be waived for these guys, b/c they can both score in bunches. 6-4 Colon after one, Colon's points coming on some creative opportunism.

Colon gets conservative in the second, and Graff slows down as well. Graff got in on legs twice and Colon looked to chest wrap but nothing panned out.

It ends 6-4 but wouldn't be surprised if Graff can take the second.
 
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Snyder up on Gadson 4-0 after one. Gadson not really threatening but decent defensively against Snyder. Just not in his tier. Gadson can't get anything going in the second and it ends 4-0.
 
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Deakin vs Green, or the match we all figured Jason Nolf would be wrestling at. Deakin's win against Green at Open didn't look like a fluke, but he's rewarded with having to wrestle Green in Nebraska.

Green gets to Deakin's ankles immediately and laces him 4x for the :18 tech. They're reviewing for whether it was three or four turns but it was four. Confirmed.
 
Well, that was anti-climactic. Green with the 18 second tech. TD and four leg laces
 
Was about to tap the mic here to see if this thing is on.

Gilman Fix. Over/under at 5.5 total points.

Gilman gets to a leg but Fix quad-pods near the edge and Gilman has to settle for 1. Now 1-1 after the same sequence only with a Gilman quad-pod. 1-1.

Gilman gets to a leg, beautiful defense by Fix popping out the back door and getting two, and two more with a gut. 5-1 at break.

Fix with some more ridiculous defense, then getting a clean takedown after what looked like a Gilman mental lapse. 7-1 Fix.

Gilman has nothing for Fix now, except some slo-mo shots that Fix easily turns away.

Gilman looked for a garbage time takedown but Fix turned into it his own two to finish it 9-1.

I think most people thought this would be closer.
 
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