Final X Matchups
- Thread starter PAallDAY
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Ah I didn't know that - if that's the case, I don't think they'll overturn it if they have an explanation for their decision already.
Not snarky at all, just hoping you would elaborate, you sound like you may have been there and I am curious what actuall happened
Thx for info
According to Mike Mal and Willie Saylor during the post-match review.....Cael challenged something that occurred at the very end but the judges had the leeway to go back to the beginning of the sequence and review. They determined that the last 45 seconds or so was one long sequence and determined that Yanni was awarded 2 pts. that he should not have been. So....even though Cael didn't challenge the earlier two...it was within the judges authority to examine the entire sequence. They determined that Yanni was awarded 2pts at about 40 seconds remaining that he should not have been. The real kicker is that in freestyle you can't go back to the 40 second mark and start wrestling as you would in folkstyle. The judges took away the 2pts and there are no restarts to the point of error in Freestyle. So the match is over and Zain was the winner. That is according to Willie and Mike's reporting of the explanation they were given. Amazing match.....wish it didn't have controversy.
BUT: Please don't forget that Zain won the first match 10-4 with no controversy.
BUT: Please don't forget that Zain won the first match 10-4 with no controversy.
So anyone dissing Cox for tonight’s performance, I can’t agree with! Like his style or not, he’s freaking good! I think Bo competed hard, but 10 pounds down and far less battle tested, I'm not that surprised by the result.
People coming on here and creating names just to trash Bo is lame as all get out, but Cox is no joke! Best of luck to him this year! Bo will find his weight and settle in to it and he’ll be a tough out for whoever he takes on - guaranteed! I predict he finds a spot on a world team eventually and when he does - he’ll be on the podium!
Props to Zain!!! The last one ended in controversy and that’s unfortunate, it undermines an outstanding performance by him tonight! Apparently, we may need to stay tuned as there’s a protest, but for now, I’m stoked to know he made the team against an insane field!
Also, congrats to the part-time NLWC boy, Gwiz! He looked good in some tight and fun matches tonight against a game dude in Gable!
Fun wrestling tonight!!!! Go NLWC!!!! Go USA!!!!
People coming on here and creating names just to trash Bo is lame as all get out, but Cox is no joke! Best of luck to him this year! Bo will find his weight and settle in to it and he’ll be a tough out for whoever he takes on - guaranteed! I predict he finds a spot on a world team eventually and when he does - he’ll be on the podium!
Props to Zain!!! The last one ended in controversy and that’s unfortunate, it undermines an outstanding performance by him tonight! Apparently, we may need to stay tuned as there’s a protest, but for now, I’m stoked to know he made the team against an insane field!
Also, congrats to the part-time NLWC boy, Gwiz! He looked good in some tight and fun matches tonight against a game dude in Gable!
Fun wrestling tonight!!!! Go NLWC!!!! Go USA!!!!
Gotcha. Thanks for the reply! It now appears there is some difference of agreement with the rule since the judges took it as one long scoring sequence, so it's perhaps not so cut and dry.
If Zain wins on a controversial call, would a movie of the ironic situation vis-à-vis the NCAA Finals be called something like “Something for Joey”?
Might be stupid question, but is there any way Yianni and Gableov can petition to get in Jr WTT? Will either want too?
According to Koll...…..as soon as they determine who to file the appeal/protest
with.....they will do so on Monday. He also said he talked to 15 people and that sadly nobody there knew how to appeal/protest or whom to appeal to. My favorite was to the effect that "4999 people saw it one way and two officials saw it the opposite" Also mentioned that some refs should never be on the mat. Stay tuned
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I would be willing to bet a few beers that if you got 10 quality officials to individually watch that 2nd match in slow-motion and score it......that you would have at least 3 different scores....probably more. It was amazing....4-4 after 5 seconds?? Never saw that before
It's not over yet it will be determined at a later date.If they need match 3 it would probably happen with Dake vs Dieringer.Not sure I see that as 1 sequence but I guess time will tell.Cody asked to challenge the first exchange after he threw the block he didn't think the 2 and 2 was the correct call
Wait, I thought the proper appeal for freestyle was to disrobe down to your undies in the middle of the mat. Or is that only for international matches?
Great, now someone will post a picture of 2 beer bellied 3/4 naked Mongolians
I will laugh until it hurts if Koll's appeal is denied because he missed the deadline.
That's not true. No amount of pain will stop my laughing at Koll if that happens.
Since they took 2pts away from Yanni.....I imagine it would have to be 6-6 criteria for Zain
So let me see if I got the Cliff Notes version down:
Zain asked Cael to throw the brick cause he thought he had exposure at the end to make it 8-8 (there's 0% chance he had the initial exposure in mind when he signaled) and thus he effectively wins on criteria.
He didn't get exposure at the end but because Zain's shot led to an insane minute long scramble, the referee had discretion to look at the entire minute where Zain never appeared to get exposed but there is argument also Yianni initiated the roll off the shot.
But to summarize my ultimate thoughts, man Freestyle can be so exciting at the cost of being so confusing as well.
Zain asked Cael to throw the brick cause he thought he had exposure at the end to make it 8-8 (there's 0% chance he had the initial exposure in mind when he signaled) and thus he effectively wins on criteria.
He didn't get exposure at the end but because Zain's shot led to an insane minute long scramble, the referee had discretion to look at the entire minute where Zain never appeared to get exposed but there is argument also Yianni initiated the roll off the shot.
But to summarize my ultimate thoughts, man Freestyle can be so exciting at the cost of being so confusing as well.
I understand the frustration on Cornell's side as well. Playing devils advocate if one of our guys lost in that manner, I would be extremely upset as well and want a 3rd match.
There's a lot at stake end of the day. Not only for who represents the USA but both of these guys are capable of medaling if not winning the whole thing. Also as 65 KG is an Olympic Weight, medaling at worlds would provide a huge advantage for trials next year.
There's a lot at stake end of the day. Not only for who represents the USA but both of these guys are capable of medaling if not winning the whole thing. Also as 65 KG is an Olympic Weight, medaling at worlds would provide a huge advantage for trials next year.
These referees and review booths have the toughest job around trying to determine who out of a couple wrestlers flopping every direction should be awarded points. I honestly don't know how it should been called a couple times during the match but do know these calls are open to interpretation and controversy with officiating happens a lot in freestyle. The inconsistency is always an issue. Just like I've often seen passivity very aggressively enforced then not as well. That all being said the officials are paid to be there and get these calls right. How in the world do you unaward a team member spot in this case to a wrestler that was the aggressor and won the first round convincibly. Man freestyle can be so unsatisfting at times and I've spent a fortune watching it.
If I saw the scoring correctly, Mat Official went 2 Blue, Judge saw it 2 Red. At that point I believe the scoring sequence can’t stay 2-2, the Mat Chairperson has to vote with the Mat Official or the Judge or have a majority to score it 2-2.
I don’t think Yianni will have any recourse with a protest.
The correct score would then have to be posted with the Mat Chair voting either 2 Red(Judge) or 2 Blue ( Mat Official) or a discussion with majority voting 2-2 before timing of challenge would come into play. Cael would have 5 seconds from that being done and score board being officially updated in which to challenge, if there was a need to challenge based on how the Mat Chair decided to resolve the conflicting scores. So that’s why they went back 45 seconds as they HAD to resolve that.
I don’t think Yianni will have any recourse with a protest.
The correct score would then have to be posted with the Mat Chair voting either 2 Red(Judge) or 2 Blue ( Mat Official) or a discussion with majority voting 2-2 before timing of challenge would come into play. Cael would have 5 seconds from that being done and score board being officially updated in which to challenge, if there was a need to challenge based on how the Mat Chair decided to resolve the conflicting scores. So that’s why they went back 45 seconds as they HAD to resolve that.
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That is only for when the refs cover their eyes and yell....."Russia Wins!"...….in which case the Rio Olympics looked like a nudist colony
This is why the basic premise of freestyle is stupid .... scoring without control
From the rule book:
During a bout, when the coach considers that a blatant refereeing mistake has been made against his wrestler and calls for a challenge, the mat chairman must wait for the action to go to neutral and stop the match. The refereeing delegate (or his substitute) and the mat chairman must review the video evidence. If the refereeing delegate (or his substitute) agrees that the refereeing body was right, the mat chairman must make sure that no other challenge will be granted to the wrestler in question during the remaining of the match. After the review of the video evidence, the refereeing delegate (or his substitute) solely renders its decision. Its decision is final and cannot be challenged.
During a bout, when the coach considers that a blatant refereeing mistake has been made against his wrestler and calls for a challenge, the mat chairman must wait for the action to go to neutral and stop the match. The refereeing delegate (or his substitute) and the mat chairman must review the video evidence. If the refereeing delegate (or his substitute) agrees that the refereeing body was right, the mat chairman must make sure that no other challenge will be granted to the wrestler in question during the remaining of the match. After the review of the video evidence, the refereeing delegate (or his substitute) solely renders its decision. Its decision is final and cannot be challenged.
And hard to score. I still don't see how the opening sequence in the 2nd match was scored 4-4. After Zain's opening 4 point move they roll thru twice so both are exposed with boy guys having a hold on the other and yet Yianni gets 2 points twice and Zain gets none? Baffling.
I agree completely. When Zain initiates the move and you see continuation rolling you think that is more points for Zain.....but instead was called 4 for Yanni. I think it is Yanni's very unique ability to turn someone's initial move into what looks like something Yanni "meant to do". He is just so flexible and quick. I just wonder if International Refs will give him the same "respect" or if he will be destined to "not get that call" when wrestling ….not in America but rather in Russia friendly territory. Time will tell because I think he is too talented to not be a USA representative in the near future.
This is a perfect interpretation of the rules.
The chair has to agree with the Judge or the official. He cant make up his own score without a jury of appeals.
The end of the match was the first break in the action and the first chance to correct an obvious scoring error. The only correct calls were 2R or 2B without a conference.
I think they got the call correct ( I'm probably biased) I ref quite a bit of freestyle. When the scoring sequence is that close, I go with the guy initiating the action sequence. There is so much going on and so fast its impossible to tell (even on review) for sure who initiated that roll through. When in doubt, go with the shooter.
I arrived home right as they were interviewing Zain... I went back and watched the match, expecting my world to shatter with an egregious call.
I'm not saying it was perfect or even correct, but it is definitely defendable and justifiable. The outrage is a bit ridiculous.
I'm not saying it was perfect or even correct, but it is definitely defendable and justifiable. The outrage is a bit ridiculous.
When you win 8 of 9, all close calls are supposed to go against your wrestlers or it's an outrage. I still don't understand how Zain wasn't awarded 2 points for exposure in the last sequence. He clearly rolled Yianni. I like freestyle but the rules still mystify me sometimes.
I think the outrage is due solely to the fact that the final result was reversed, and has nothing to do with the fans' opinions on how that final sequence should have been scored, which was as murky as freestyle gets. I'd be shocked if the appeal is successful.
The one thing I do wonder about is whether, when the referees initially reversed the call, the clock should've been rewound to the point of the mistaken 2 given to thanks and the match finished from there.
The reason being that the wrestlers wrestle a certain way given what they believe the score to be at a given moment, so if Yianni doesn't have that 2 off that sequence, he's prejudiced by being rendered unable to continue the match from a point at which the match was scored correctly.
In folk they'll wipe out all scoring that came after a later-reversed call, but I've never seen the situation arise in FS.
All that aside, I think Zain looked better than Yianni yesterday in both matches, both memorable classics. It's unfortunate the second match will be remembered for its officiating at the end, but it's not as if Yianni outwrestled Zain in the second match. The outrage isn't over a miscarriage of justice, the outrage is because people no longer have perspective about refereeing and are lightning quick to perceive unfairness and conspiracy.
The one thing I do wonder about is whether, when the referees initially reversed the call, the clock should've been rewound to the point of the mistaken 2 given to thanks and the match finished from there.
The reason being that the wrestlers wrestle a certain way given what they believe the score to be at a given moment, so if Yianni doesn't have that 2 off that sequence, he's prejudiced by being rendered unable to continue the match from a point at which the match was scored correctly.
In folk they'll wipe out all scoring that came after a later-reversed call, but I've never seen the situation arise in FS.
All that aside, I think Zain looked better than Yianni yesterday in both matches, both memorable classics. It's unfortunate the second match will be remembered for its officiating at the end, but it's not as if Yianni outwrestled Zain in the second match. The outrage isn't over a miscarriage of justice, the outrage is because people no longer have perspective about refereeing and are lightning quick to perceive unfairness and conspiracy.
Is there really a precedent for the review officials to be over turned and another match awarded? Does USA freestyle wrestling really want to go there?
So confusing the rules are that the flo guys announcing seem to back and forth often with both guys can seeing it different. Those guys say I don't know a ton. Not throwing dirt on them. As an experiment I'd like to see 2 Russian officials that have not seen the match give us a score.
So confusing the rules are that the flo guys announcing seem to back and forth often with both guys can seeing it different. Those guys say I don't know a ton. Not throwing dirt on them. As an experiment I'd like to see 2 Russian officials that have not seen the match give us a score.
Woke up this morning and here’s my final thoughts on last night..
How classy if f-ing Zain? Goes out and looks as sharp as I ever seen him. Dominates 10-4. 2nd match, shoots right off the whistle and creates another awesome match. Fans boo the most humble hardworking guy and his interview is so classy he turns the boos into cheers.
Does everyone remember the joke of a correct throw call when Zain lost to JO? Did Cael protest? No. Was the wrestling universe in an uproar? No, because it was a PSU guy. We’re the top dogs and people can’t stand it.
J’Den Cox— he’s a bad, bad man. This dude is just a straight winner. Super technique, speed, strength and awareness. I love Magic Man but he nor Snyder should feel safe next year depending on what weight this guy goes. He beat Bo and shut him down completely which is something I never thought I’d see. Congrats to him.
Excited for Zain and hope he brings home gold and sits in Final X next year.
Lots to look forward to as a PSU fan. We have another star studded college team to root for and then we get to see Nico, Zain, Nolf, Hall, Bo, Taylor, Cassar go after an Olympic gold.
As Cael and the boys would say..”grateful”
How classy if f-ing Zain? Goes out and looks as sharp as I ever seen him. Dominates 10-4. 2nd match, shoots right off the whistle and creates another awesome match. Fans boo the most humble hardworking guy and his interview is so classy he turns the boos into cheers.
Does everyone remember the joke of a correct throw call when Zain lost to JO? Did Cael protest? No. Was the wrestling universe in an uproar? No, because it was a PSU guy. We’re the top dogs and people can’t stand it.
J’Den Cox— he’s a bad, bad man. This dude is just a straight winner. Super technique, speed, strength and awareness. I love Magic Man but he nor Snyder should feel safe next year depending on what weight this guy goes. He beat Bo and shut him down completely which is something I never thought I’d see. Congrats to him.
Excited for Zain and hope he brings home gold and sits in Final X next year.
Lots to look forward to as a PSU fan. We have another star studded college team to root for and then we get to see Nico, Zain, Nolf, Hall, Bo, Taylor, Cassar go after an Olympic gold.
As Cael and the boys would say..”grateful”
Funny you say humble. 2 of the most humble, Cael and Zain, are taking all the sh$t. It's about PSU and winning too much. People throw jabs all the time hoping something sticks. It doesn't matter Zain worked and wrestled his ass off, it's that he get special treatment because he's PSU. Then the excuse is just wrestle a third match because we want to see more. Bullshit. It isn't about you, it's about Zain won 2 matches in a row, it's over. For all those on boards that claim they wrestled, it's as if they never stepped on a mat.
This situation is the perfect example of my problem with freestyle, no control exposure. Scoring is totally at the discretion of the refs and as we all know that 100 people will have 100 different opinions of who should get what. It just leaves too much to subjectivity. In regard to what 2 Russian officials would rule on this match, I think they would probably declare that a Russian won even though neither wrestler was Russian.
https://unitedworldwrestling.org/sites/default/files/media/document/wrestling_rules_0.pdf
While it does say that, it also says that no challenge can be conducted after the match is over. Additionally, that the challenge must be within 5 seconds of the actionable item being challenged—no where does it say time of the challenge can be extended due to it being of the same sequence. The question of 5 seconds isn’t applied to the sequence of events but to when the coach throws the brick.
I am with you guys on the fact that Zain outwrestled Yianni, but according to the rules, Yianni won the second match.
