HAVE YOU HEARD???

[mcpat]

You just made me LOL, TY. Even if ALL this went right for you, IOWA still scores more then your HIGH point total you have given your team!!! Please do the math for what you think IOWA would have scored?

I’ve done the math multiple times. PSU is ahead by 5-10 before bonus.

I don’t want to single out Marinelli b/c he was a great wrestler and is a great person, but here’s a guy that won 4 B1G titles and his best finish at NCAAs was 5th, on a MFF victory in the 5th place match. Your guys typically perform much worse at NCAAs than Big Tens while PSU does the opposite.

 

[Mat Burn]

woulda, coulda, shoulda​

 

[El-Jefe]

Can you blame them for looking past Soldier Salute?

 

[Sullivan]

I was at the B1Gs at Rutgers and IOWA was wrestling as well as I have seen in a L O N G time!!! Spencer lee would have rolled to #4! Lugo was to be seeded #1 and had a great shot at a NC title. The Bull was the healthiest he ever was late in the season and would have been the #1 seed i believe? had is best shot at a title that year. KenDawg also was healthy and I believe would have won it.

YES all is speculation at best but without a doubt they were HUGE favorites and rolled to the biggest title of the year(B1Gs) so...........

TY, and I would wish you luck also but I do not think you need it!!!! As an IOWA fan, I though some of those stall calls were quick. I am sure an Iowa st fan would feel differently. What was your opinion?

It could have been….but wasn’t.

 

[ss7]

Well there is a lot to say about the way they coach at IOWA! Again, they won 3 in a row before your run, and another 2(I will give us the covid year) with far less high end recruits. NOT saying some adjustments could not be made! I think that could be said about any coaches from outsiders looking in though.


OH did you all see?????? IOWA over Iowa st. HUGE win and now we have our sights set on you guys!!!! : )

Iowa Wrestling...

You get what you probably would have earned, theoretically!

 

[mcpat]

You just made me LOL, TY. Even if ALL this went right for you, IOWA still scores more then your HIGH point total you have given your team!!! Please do the math for what you think IOWA would have scored?

What’s funny is I’m talking about four guys that made 11 finals and won 8 NCAA titles in 13 tournaments between them winning it that year. Add that Valencia wasn’t wrestling that year to the probability of Hall winning. And I’m not even giving a title to 2x champ and 3x finalist RBY in this scenario.

Meanwhile, Iowa fans want to give Marinelli the title that year.

 

[sstark46]

What’s funny is I’m talking about four guys that made 11 finals and won 8 NCAA titles in 13 tournaments between them winning it that year. Add that Valencia wasn’t wrestling that year to the probability of Hall winning. And I’m not even giving a title to 2x champ and 3x finalist RBY in this scenario.

Meanwhile, Iowa fans want to give Marinelli the title that year.

I don't disagree with anything you say. The truth is that Iowa was likely to underperform and PSU was likely to over perform, based on seed. I get that entirely.

But can you admit that, that year was a little different of a situation from the normal "PSU doesn't win B1Gs but does win nationals" that seems to happen. Most importantly, PSU was 4th (4th!!!!!!!) at B1Gs that year, being more than an entire finalist worth of points away from 3rd place Ohio St, who was a finalist away from 2nd places Nebraska, who was a finalist away from 1st place Iowa. So they had a ton of ground to make up already in the next two weeks.

I am not saying Iowa was a foregone conclusion to win it, and I don't count it in our favor because at the end of the day, it was not competed for and so does not count for anything, but there is an awful lot of mental gymnastics needed to be like "actually PSU was favored and not Iowa and so Iowa fans can't brag about that year", because it's clear that Iowa was the best team that year during each event that was actually wrestled

 

[El-Jefe]

I don't disagree with anything you say. The truth is that Iowa was likely to underperform and PSU was likely to over perform, based on seed. I get that entirely.

But can you admit that, that year was a little different of a situation from the normal "PSU doesn't win B1Gs but does win nationals" that seems to happen. Most importantly, PSU was 4th (4th!!!!!!!) at B1Gs that year, being more than an entire finalist worth of points away from 3rd place Ohio St, who was a finalist away from 2nd places Nebraska, who was a finalist away from 1st place Iowa. So they had a ton of ground to make up already in the next two weeks.

I am not saying Iowa was a foregone conclusion to win it, and I don't count it in our favor because at the end of the day, it was not competed for and so does not count for anything, but there is an awful lot of mental gymnastics needed to be like "actually PSU was favored and not Iowa and so Iowa fans can't brag about that year", because it's clear that Iowa was the best team that year during each event that was actually wrestled

We tend to discount or entirely ignore performance at B10s. Especially after Ohio State won 2018 B10s by 16+ pts.

That is, if you ignore the collective panic attack during the actual B10 tournament.

 

[sstark46]

We tend to discount or entirely ignore performance at B10s. Especially after Ohio State won 2018 B10s by 16+ pts.

That is, if you ignore the collective panic attack during the actual B10 tournament.

And I get that, except Iowa won 2020 B1Gs by 50.5, which is 2 whole finalists with bonus worth of points

I do think nationals would have been closer than that, but it blows my mind that people can argue that PSU may have won 2020 when Iowa showed all year (including head to head in the dual and at B1Gs) that they were well ahead of the field that year

 

[mcpat]

I don't disagree with anything you say. The truth is that Iowa was likely to underperform and PSU was likely to over perform, based on seed. I get that entirely.

But can you admit that, that year was a little different of a situation from the normal "PSU doesn't win B1Gs but does win nationals" that seems to happen. Most importantly, PSU was 4th (4th!!!!!!!) at B1Gs that year, being more than an entire finalist worth of points away from 3rd place Ohio St, who was a finalist away from 2nd places Nebraska, who was a finalist away from 1st place Iowa. So they had a ton of ground to make up already in the next two weeks.

I am not saying Iowa was a foregone conclusion to win it, and I don't count it in our favor because at the end of the day, it was not competed for and so does not count for anything, but there is an awful lot of mental gymnastics needed to be like "actually PSU was favored and not Iowa and so Iowa fans can't brag about that year", because it's clear that Iowa was the best team that year during each event that was actually wrestled

They had as top-heavy a team as they ever had. Thats not going to do well at Big Tens. Smaller/easier tournaments reward depth; bigger/tougher tournaments reward individual championships. But 4 champs almost always wins NCAAs, 2021 notwithstanding. Name me another time it didn’t.

At Big Tens, RBY lost to SeaBass, NLee lost to Pletcher and Joseph lost to Marinelli. I think the latter two avenge those losses and win NCAAs. Also, Shakur MFF’d after losing by a point to Schultz in the semifinals. It was a bad showing.

I’ve reviewed the NCAA brackets a ton and I think PSU wins.

 

[mcpat]

In 2021, Iowa scored 30 more points at Big Tens than at NCAAs.

In 2017, PSU scored 16.5 more points at NCAAs than Big Tens.

I don’t expect Iowa fans to believe it. I don’t even expect most PSU fans to believe it.

But I believe Penn St would have won NCAAs in 2020. And that’s said after reviewing the brackets and seeing some significant obstructions in the paths of some Iowa wrestlers that year.

 

[sstark46]

They had as top-heavy a team as they ever had. Thats not going to do well at Big Tens. Smaller/easier tournaments reward depth; bigger/tougher tournaments reward individual championships. But 4 champs almost always wins NCAAs, 2021 notwithstanding. Name me another time it didn’t.

At Big Tens, RBY lost to SeaBass, NLee lost to Pletcher and Joseph lost to Marinelli. I think the latter two avenge those losses and win NCAAs. Also, Shakur MFF’d after losing by a point to Schultz in the semifinals. It was a bad showing.

I’ve reviewed the NCAA brackets a ton and I think PSU wins.

2021 is the perfect example, though, with almost similar rosters. PSU had the top depth with 4 champs but Iowa was more consistently high. It's not like 2021 was a random occurrence and the teams we are talking about had no relation to them; it was basically the exact same scenario the following year and similar scenarios were likely to play out

Penn State got 4th at B1Gs that year, behind Iowa plus two other teams

They lost to Iowa in the dual despite a forfeit

Iowa was favored that year at nationals and it would've taken a few massive upsets for it to go otherwise

It's a homer pick to think PSU wins 2020 and no amount of justification will hold otherwise . It's a weird thing to try and hold onto considering the domination your team has had since 2011. As an Iowa fan I will not take credit for the win in 2020 because it never actually happened,but it's incredibly silly for any other team to try and take credit for it themselves when Iowa was the clear best team in the dountry

 

[El-Jefe]

2021 is the perfect example, though, with almost similar rosters. PSU had the top depth with 4 champs but Iowa was more consistently high.

Sooner or later, every topic reverts to Downey.

 

[sstark46]

Sooner or later, every topic reverts to Downey.

Well played

 

[mcpat]

2021 is the perfect example, though, with almost similar rosters. PSU had the top depth with 4 champs but Iowa was more consistently high. It's not like 2021 was a random occurrence and the teams we are talking about had no relation to them; it was basically the exact same scenario the following year and similar scenarios were likely to play out

Penn State got 4th at B1Gs that year, behind Iowa plus two other teams

They lost to Iowa in the dual despite a forfeit

Iowa was favored that year at nationals and it would've taken a few massive upsets for it to go otherwise

It's a homer pick to think PSU wins 2020 and no amount of justification will hold otherwise . It's a weird thing to try and hold onto considering the domination your team has had since 2011. As an Iowa fan I will not take credit for the win in 2020 because it never actually happened,but it's incredibly silly for any other team to try and take credit for it themselves when Iowa was the clear best team in the dountry

In 2021, Penn State didn’t have Joseph. (Carter replaced Hall. AB, NLee and RBY returned.) . Put Joseph on the 2021 team and PSU would have won. Iowa 2nd.

I’m not predicting RBY wins it in 2021, but he would have placed high. Ditto Rasheed. 2021’s team was very much like the 2020 team, sans Joseph. Which is why we win in 2020 with him.

 

[sstark46]

In 2021, Penn State didn’t have Joseph. (Carter replaced Hall. AB, NLee and RBY returned.) . Put Joseph on the 2021 team and PSU would have won. Iowa 2nd.

Ok? But that's not how eligibility works?
The 2021 Iowa team didn't have Lugo, so how does that change the outlook?

 

[El-Jefe]

In 2021, Penn State didn’t have Joseph. (Carter replaced Hall. AB, NLee and RBY returned.) . Put Joseph on the 2021 team and PSU would have won. Iowa 2nd.

For reference: in 2021, Joe Lee went 0-2. Cenzo's worst NCAA Tournament was 18.0 pts.

In 2021, Iowa won by 15.5 pts.

Adding Cenzo doesn't automatically put PSU over the top, but certainly opens up that possibility.

 

[sstark46]

For reference: in 2021, Joe Lee went 0-2. Cenzo's worst NCAA Tournament was 18.0 pts.

In 2021, Iowa won by 15.5 pts.

Adding Cenzo doesn't automatically put PSU over the top, but certainly opens up that possibility.

But Cenzo wasn't eligible in 2021? So what does that change about 2020?

Its so weird that you guys have had the ultimate success rate since 2011 but can't just simply admit that you were absolutely not favored in 2020 despite all of the evidence to the contrary

 

[El-Jefe]

Ok? But that's not how eligibility works?
The 2021 Iowa team didn't have Lugo, so how does that change the outlook?

Iowa won 2021 so that doesn't change anything team-wise.

Max Murin hardest hit.

 

[IRONBIRD]

I’ve done the math multiple times. PSU is ahead by 5-10 before bonus.

I don’t want to single out Marinelli b/c he was a great wrestler and is a great person, but here’s a guy that won 4 B1G titles and his best finish at NCAAs was 5th, on a MFF victory in the 5th place match. Your guys typically perform much worse at NCAAs than Big Tens while PSU does the opposite.

OK, lets see it side by side? I have to assume you have every one of your guys peaking and most of ours fading. It was not the case though, They had already WON NCAAs the year before and we were BETTER the next year!

Iowa Wrestling...

You get what you probably would have earned, theoretically!

This was kinda funny.

 

[El-Jefe]

But Cenzo wasn't eligible in 2021? So what does that change about 2020?

Its so weird that you guys have had the ultimate success rate since 2011 but can't just simply admit that you were absolutely not favorer in 2020 despite all of the evidence to the contrary

I never said Iowa wasn't favored. Just inserting the math.

 

[mcpat]

Ok? But that's not how eligibility works?
The 2021 Iowa team didn't have Lugo, so how does that change the outlook?

Lugo, whose best tournament finish was 8th and was replaced by a comparable Murin.

 

[sstark46]

I never said Iowa wasn't favored. Just inserting the math.

If you're inserting someone out of eligibility then I'm gonna insert Lugo, who was projected 2nd at worst. So Iowa still wins in that scenario.

Look, I've said multiple times that NCAAs would have been closer than B1Gs that year, and that I will not claim that title for Iowa since it never actually happened, but can any of you admit that Iowa was the very likely winner that year had it not been cancelled, and any win by PSU would have been a massive upset?

 

[sstark46]

Lugo, whose best tournament finish was 8th.

So he would've automatically been 8th or worse that year, despite how much he had actually improved as a wrestler?

 

[El-Jefe]

If you're inserting someone out of eligibility then I'm gonna insert Lugo, who was projected 2nd at worst. So Iowa still wins in that scenario.

Look, I've said multiple times that NCAAs would have been closer than B1Gs that year, and that I will not claim that title for Iowa since it never actually happened, but can any of you admit that Iowa was the very likely winner that year had it not been cancelled, and any win by PSU would have been a massive upset?

You're not going to draw me into an argument. Frankly, the Imaginary 2020 National Championship debate bores me to tears.

Who would've won a tournament that never happened 4 years ago? Who cares.

And no, I did not insert Cenzo. I only added the numbers to someone else's argument.

 

[mcpat]

So he would've automatically been 8th or worse that year, despite how much he had actually improved as a wrestler?

I’m not giving you or any other Iowa fan heck for believing Iowa would have won. (Although I draw the line at claiming victory.). So I’m not sure why you can’t just disagree. I think I’ve put forth some reasonable arguments for my position, even if you disagree with them.

And yes - when I project it, I give a higher chance of winning it all to guys that did so multiple times vs guys that never came close, even if they were looking good that one year.

 

[sstark46]

You're not going to draw me into an argument. Frankly, the Imaginary 2020 National Championship debate bores me to tears.

Who would've won a tournament that never happened 4 years ago? Who cares.

And no, I did not insert Cenzo. I only added the numbers to someone else's argument.

I agree. It doesn't matter. I don't try to claim the championship from 2020 but I think it's even more ridiculous for some PSU fans to try and claim it for themselves

 

[mcpat]

I agree. It doesn't matter. I don't try to claim the championship from 2020 but I think it's even more ridiculous for some PSU fans to try and claim it for themselves

When did I claim it? Come on man - that’s not right.

I responded to an Iowa fan that did actually claim it. I said I didn’t expect to convince anyone of my belief and then I layed out why I believed it.

I never claimed it. Not even close.

 

[sstark46]

I’m not giving you or any other Iowa fan heck for believing Iowa would have won. (Although I draw the line at claiming victory.). So I’m not sure why you can’t just disagree. I think I’ve put forth some reasonable arguments for my position, even if you disagree with them.

And yes - when I project it, I give a higher chance of winning it all to guys that did so multiple times vs guys that never came close, even if they were looking good that one year.

I just don't think it's reasonable to tell Iowa fans they have no claim to it because PSU likely would have won it anyway. If you can just admit that Iowa was likely favorites, but Penn State had an outside shot, then I think we're on the same page. Any assertion that Penn State was the likely winner just seems absurd to me, especially when all actual "on the mat" evidence that year shows that Iowa was the likely winner

 

[sstark46]

When did I claim it? Come on man - that’s not right.

I responded to an Iowa fan that did actually claim it. I said I didn’t expect to convince anyone of my belief and then I layed out why I believed it.

I never claimed it. Not even close.

Fair enough. I get your reasoning and I don't disagree. We all got robbed of what could have been a tight and epic team race
Are you able to admit, without conditionals, that Iowa was the favorite that year?

 

[mcpat]

I just don't think it's reasonable to tell Iowa fans they have no claim to it because PSU likely would have won it anyway. If you can just admit that Iowa was likely favorites, but Penn State had an outside shot, then I think we're on the same page. Any assertion that Penn State was the likely winner just seems absurd to me, especially when all actual "on the mat" evidence that year shows that Iowa was the likely winner

So now it’s not reasonable to respond to an Iowa fan on a Penn State board claiming a win in a contest that never occurred? You’re all over the place now.

I was reasonable here. I used “I believe”, “I think”, etc., and said I didn’t expect others to.

Done with this. Feel free to have the last word but would appreciate if you don’t again accuse me of something I didn’t do.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

They lost to Iowa in the dual despite a forfeit

To be fair that forfeit should've been a pin. 6 either way. That was a helluva exciting dual. It probably would've went the other way at Penn State.

But yes, Iowa was definitely the favorite going into the tourney.

 

[sstark46]

So now it’s not reasonable to respond to an Iowa fan on a Penn State board claiming a win in a contest that never occurred? You’re all over the place now.

I was reasonable here. I used “I believe”, “I think”, etc., and said I didn’t expect others to.

Done with this. Feel free to have the last word but would appreciate if you don’t again accuse me of something I didn’t do.

I'm not trying to be unreasonable, I promise you. I do think that we agree 95% of the way and I'm just trying to verify that. Where I think we're off on is that I think it's more reasonable for an Iowa fan to claim victory there (even though I personally don't, because it never happened) vs the thought that somehow Penn State should actually have been favored there despite all evidence otherwise.

You are right that you never made specific hard claims like that and I apologize. Perhaps I am more sensitive to this than I thought I was. I am still not over losing that tournament that year, that's for sure

 

[mcpat]

To be fair that forfeit should've been a pin. 6 either way. That was a helluva exciting dual. It probably would've went the other way at Penn State.

But yes, Iowa was definitely the favorite going into the tourney.

Of course they were the favorite; I never said they weren’t. But when I did the brackets in the least homerish way possible for me, I had PSU winning is all. And yes - I believe the picks I made.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

Of course they were the favorite; I never said they weren’t. But when I did the brackets in the least homerish way possible for me, I had PSU winning is all. And yes - I believe the picks I made.

There was definitely a path to win. Unfortunately, we'll never know.

 

[sstark46]

Of course they were the favorite; I never said they weren’t. But when I did the brackets in the least homerish way possible for me, I had PSU winning is all. And yes - I believe the picks I made.

Fair.

Though - when I did the brackets in the least homerish way I could, Iowa still won fairly easily. So maybe we both are more blind fans of our programs than we realize

Covid screwed us out of some drama that year, that's for damn sure

 

[mcpat]

Sorry for losing it for a moment there. Stupid internet.

All good @sstark46

 

[sstark46]

Sorry for losing it for a moment there. Stupid internet.

All good @sstark46

No worries. I was coming off hard headed for sure so I apologize for that. I appreciate you engaging with me, I love the differing perspective even if in disagreement

 

[Agoodnap]

I don’t expect to convince you on this topic at all, but I’m convinced PSU was going to win NCAAs in 2021. Here’s one of my prior posts about it:

“PSU:

Champs at 141 (NLee), 165 (Cenzo), 174 (Hall) and 184 (Brooks). High finishes from RBY and Shakur (who had just beaten Warner at Big Tens and was rounding into wrestling shape after the long injury layoff). I have them at 103-109 before bonus.

Iowa:

Marinelli was slated to see Wick (big-time Krypotonite for Marinelli over his career) in the quarters. Warner was going to see Rasheed in 2nd round (Rasheed had just beaten him at Big Tens). Young had just gone 0-2 at Big Tens and had lost his last 3 matches. Lugo was a one-seed with 8th place being his best ever NCAA tournament performance.

To each his own, but I’m convinced PSU was going to win.”

I think you meant 2020 (covid year with no nationals), not 2021. This is causing a lot of confusion.

 

[82bordeaux]

Are you able to admit, without conditionals, that Iowa was the favorite that year?

"Just one more reason why Iowa is always a bad bet."
- Nelson Brands