Is Penn State Freshman Levi Haines a Title Contender at 157 Pounds?
- Thread starter NittanyLion84
- Start date
He's playing with house money and seems to be getting more and more confident. Very dangerous wrestler right now.
Also, how much would it suck to be a fan of a contending team and see PSU has another beast? They might be better next year than this year.
Levi's win from a (cough cough) different angle.
No way you beat the number one unbeaten guy in the nation and get a 5 seed. 3 at the lowest.
Just love the way they all root against us...the sign of greatness
was unsure of that non-call TD against Levi until I saw a similar situation in the ACC championships. Rock called it - had to give reaction time (as he may have rolled through and come up with overhook)...
Funniest thing about Levi that I read today was courtesy of the Mat. Guy said he looked a little weak and should hit the weight room.
Tell me you haven’t watched Haines without telling me you haven’t watched Haines
Tell me you haven’t watched Haines without telling me you haven’t watched Haines
That's what they said about noodle arms
I hope they count good wins more than bad losses. If so than AOC the 1, Humphreys the 2, Levi the 3, and Franek at 4 as long as Franek beats G. Franek’s loss to Robb should push him below Levi?
I'd seed Haines 2 with top wins over Robb and Coleman. Lewan and Siebrecht not chopped liver either. 3 at worst.
He's already updating his resume with like 4 more national team championships. Sandy sent him a text saying, who is going to have more?
It doesn’t matter which side. No matter what the seeding is, there is no Spencer or Yianni or Brooks at #1 who you need to avoid. This is a weight where you need to just show up and beat whoever is in front of you.
Wouldn’t Robb be 4 and Franek 5? I mean one loss each, Franek to Robb and Robb to the three seed should put Robb ahead of Franek, right? Is not like losing the B1G final in SV is going to be a huge knock on him.
Franek would’ve won his conference championship though which matters but you could absolutely be right. If they put Levi in front of Franek because he beat Robb then Robb should probably be ahead of Franek
A lot of people here opining on how wrestlers should be seeded, without considering how seeding is actually conducted.
This is a mega-convoluted math process ... and here are the rules -- skip to p. 11:
Be aware within these rules:
- See p. 9, "Quality Wins" is wins among this year's national qualifiers at the same weight. (At larges have not yet been determined).
- It's not # Quality Wins -- see p. 14, it's a calculated score to factor in how good those wins were within the NQ field. Example: Beating Cass counts for more than beating Orndorff -- as it should.
- Seeding is a 33-man simulated round-robin tournament, with each sim match scored by the p. 11 criteria. Seeds are the simulated W-L record -- #1 goes 32-0, #2 goes 31-1, etc.
To dispel some myths:
- Where an opponent is ranked when you beat them does not matter. What matters is where they're ranked in the final Coaches' Poll (conducted after the conference tourneys).
- Those opponents' records matter only to determine their tiers on p. 14 for Quality Wins. If an opponent is Tier 1, his specific # losses does not matter.
- Bonus wins don't count more than 1-pt wins. (Perhaps some indirect effect in the Coaches' Rank.)
- "Good losses" don't help. All losses have a direct impact in Win % and RPI; and where applicable in H2H, Conference Finish, and Common Opponent. In fact, if you're going to lose, you're better off losing to non-qualifiers (so long as it doesn't hurt your Coaches' Rank).
- It doesn't matter how you rank against the field in any category. It only matters how you compare against each simulated opponent using all categories.
- The transitive rule does not matter. If Levi is seeded ahead of Robb, that does not mean Robb will be seeded ahead of Franek because of the H2H win. What matters is how the Robb-Franek sim match is scored -- Robb would likely win that due to H2H, but that's just one component.
- Also Levi would not automatically be seeded ahead of Franek because of transitive property. Common Opponent is just one category in their sim match.
This is a mega-convoluted math process ... and here are the rules -- skip to p. 11:
Be aware within these rules:
- See p. 9, "Quality Wins" is wins among this year's national qualifiers at the same weight. (At larges have not yet been determined).
- It's not # Quality Wins -- see p. 14, it's a calculated score to factor in how good those wins were within the NQ field. Example: Beating Cass counts for more than beating Orndorff -- as it should.
- Seeding is a 33-man simulated round-robin tournament, with each sim match scored by the p. 11 criteria. Seeds are the simulated W-L record -- #1 goes 32-0, #2 goes 31-1, etc.
To dispel some myths:
- Where an opponent is ranked when you beat them does not matter. What matters is where they're ranked in the final Coaches' Poll (conducted after the conference tourneys).
- Those opponents' records matter only to determine their tiers on p. 14 for Quality Wins. If an opponent is Tier 1, his specific # losses does not matter.
- Bonus wins don't count more than 1-pt wins. (Perhaps some indirect effect in the Coaches' Rank.)
- "Good losses" don't help. All losses have a direct impact in Win % and RPI; and where applicable in H2H, Conference Finish, and Common Opponent. In fact, if you're going to lose, you're better off losing to non-qualifiers (so long as it doesn't hurt your Coaches' Rank).
- It doesn't matter how you rank against the field in any category. It only matters how you compare against each simulated opponent using all categories.
- The transitive rule does not matter. If Levi is seeded ahead of Robb, that does not mean Robb will be seeded ahead of Franek because of the H2H win. What matters is how the Robb-Franek sim match is scored -- Robb would likely win that due to H2H, but that's just one component.
- Also Levi would not automatically be seeded ahead of Franek because of transitive property. Common Opponent is just one category in their sim match.
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In other words we won't know until they come out, LOL.
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At the end of the day they do whatever they want. Mark Hall was the returning national champ, went undefeated and was seeded #2 because he lost an exhibition match that they made clear wouldn't count as far as seeding goes.
I am FAR too lazy to count and calculate Quality Wins, so this is largely a guess.
Gigantic mess, because Levi could very possibly lose a sim match to Humphreys or Franek, yet get seeded ahead of them because they lose to Robb and/or each other.
Humphreys is ineligible for an RPI, which really hurts his sim matches in both RPI and Quality Wins. What hurts Aaron, helps Levi.
So I'm going with O'Connor 1, Levi 2, Robb 3, Franek 4, Humphreys 5. Levi anywhere from 2-4 won't surprise me. Below 4 would shock me.
Details below:
O'Connor will be the 1 -- not a guess.
- Coaches' 1, unbeaten, conference champ.
- Since he's unbeaten, he can no worse than tie H2H and Common Opponent.
- RPI 3 behind Robb and Levi.
Levi vs. Humphreys:
- tie H2H, Conf Finish, Common Opponent.
- Levi wins RPI (Humphreys ineligible).
- Humphreys will likely win Coaches' Rank (currently 4th and 8th)
- I think Levi wins Quality Wins, and that pushes him ahead. I'll call this for Levi, but won't be surprised if I'm wrong.
Levi vs. Franek:
- tie H2H, Conf Finish.
- Possibly tie Common Opponent. Franek was 3-0 vs. Zerban, but lost to Robb. I guess this depends on exactly how this is measured -- Franek might have a better Win % against common opponents.
- Franek is very slightly ahead (less than 0.25%) in Win %, and Levi a little ahead in RPI (5th vs 6th). Let's call these a combined push.
- I have no idea about Quality Wins. Gut says Levi had more of them.
- I'll call this for Levi, and be even less surprised to be wrong here.
For giggles:
Franek vs. Robb:
- Robb wins H2H
- Franek wins Conf Finish
- Coaches' Rank is up for grabs.
- tie Common Opponents
- Robb slightly ahead in Win % and RPI
- Too lazy to figure out Quality Wins -- but can't imagine it's enough for Franek to overcome H2H, WIn %, and RPI.
- Calling this for Robb, with the caveat about Coaches' Rank.
Humphreys vs. Robb:
- tie H2H, Common Opponents
- Humphreys wins Conf Finish, Win %
- Robb wins RPI
- Coaches Rank up for grabs
- Robb likely wins Quality Wins
Franek vs. Humphreys:
- tie H2H, Common Opponents, Conf Finish
- Humphreys wins Win %
- Franek wins RPI, Coaches Rank
- Franek likely wins Quality Wins
What a mess.
They don't do whatever they want. Just because we don't care to digest the rules, or don't like the outcomes, doesn't mean the rules aren't followed.
"Returning national champ" counts zero. As it should. What you did last year, does not matter this year. (Calling PIAA.)
And for God's sake, why do we care about that? The 1 and 2 seeds met in the national finals (and the 1 seed won).
My point is that they do what they want. It's going to come down to some opinion at some point and they'll weigh the criteria different for different guys to get what they want.
LOL, prove it. Tinfoil hat level conspiracy theory in work.
The **only** hitch in the entire process is the Coaches' Rank. We all know that's a hot steaming pile of crap -- and just in case we didn't know that, they proved it multiple times within the past 2 months. But that's generally not a differentiator between the very top seeds.
Oh - the coach’s polll factors into it? Then I’m sure it will be fair and accurate.
I disagree that the prior year should not have a little value on seeding. If a kid misses a lot time because of injury but is a known stud, his previous tournament success if at the same weight should have some merit. Just my opinion.
I think if you went to Prom within the last 12 months you should move up one seed.
Where does that seed Downey?
We're getting a new wrestling facility.
At the next presser someone needs to ask Cael if he's made a decision at 157...
I'd guess it would get a level 3 smirk.
I'd guess it would get a level 3 smirk.
It's an incentive for the returning AA to wrestle less, and it would be an effective incentive.
Besides, it's already baked into the Coaches' Rank (even though it's not supposed to be). So it would be a double-dip.
