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Penn State - Michigan Dual Thread

You dont wanna see another RBY beating??
At B10s, sure.

At nationals, I want to see RBY on one side of the bracket -- Fix, DeSanto, Micic, Phillippi, and McGhee all on the other side. What the heck, put Alvarez, Myers, and Sullivan over there too.

Unrealistic? Fine, put Sullivan on RBY's side.
 
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I've been told the rankings are just for banter and fun. Especially told that when the tankers seem to be a little off.

If the coaches and the rankers are both off for different reasons, how can we have fair seedings?
These would be the same rankers that made Brooks 6th preseason?

Which is somewhat defensible if the rankings are for entertainment and clicks. But wholly indefensible if they're used for NCAA seeds.

Oh, wait -- the rankers also decided RBY's win over DeSanto didn't count because reasons they made up on the spot. So never mind about the "somewhat defensible" part.
 
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FWIW - I'm not going to name any names, but I know of one PSU parent who you probably don't want to be around when he's watching his son competing. He's a good guy any other time, but he's just super intense when there is competition. We all know of a few coaches who fit the same pattern. The bottom line is that I don't think someone's matside behavior is a good indicator of what they are really like as people. Everyone handles competition differently.
Absolutely, as a dad who attended almost all my daiughter’s high school volleyball, basketball and.soccer matches, I have no problem with supporting family and your school. When my daughter played 4 years of volleyball in college
I was there rooting just likes you proud parent.
 
He’s the only dude in the gym harassing the ref, holding up two, when Zain is sprawled out on top of Malik. If anything, Zain had an advantage, but Amine Sr. is losing his mind on the sidelines.
He’s being a father.
 
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By "a bit" you mean "so massive it can be seen from space," right?

Realistically looking at Fix being the 4 seed at 133 behind (in whatever order) the B10 champ, Phillippi, and McGhee. He just doesn't have the matches or strength of schedule to justify higher.

If Micic wins B10, he might not be the #1 seed. He'd have some measure of SOS (beating DeSanto and RBY back to back), but Phillippi's schedule isn't bad and he has wrestled many more matches.

And that's just a few guys at one weight ...
What if they would seed like PA does for states? Conference winners get the top seeds, fill in everyone else behind them. Sure, you would get some top matches in the semis or maybe quarters, but it seems a little better than the dartboard method.

I wouldn't use the third party (Flo, Intermat, etc) ranking services though. They're less objective than the coaches in my opinion.
 
What if they would seed like PA does for states? Conference winners get the top seeds, fill in everyone else behind them. Sure, you would get some top matches in the semis or maybe quarters, but it seems a little better than the dartboard method.

I wouldn't use the third party (Flo, Intermat, etc) ranking services though. They're less objective than the coaches in my opinion.
Sounds good in theory but there are 7 conferences -- how to differentiate between their champs, in a year with so few matches and B10 banning non-conference competition?

If we look at 133: Fix, Phillippi, McGhee, and (most likely) the B10 champ will all be undefeated.

At 157: Carr and Hidlay will be unbeaten. Possibly also Deakin and Dellavecchia. And EIWA has 3 undefeated starters.

At HWT: top 3 wrestlers are all B10 -- the "conference champ" model puts Parris and Cass behind Stencel/Laird, Wood, and whoever wins ACC, B12, and Pac 12.

EDIT: completely forgot about the virus rule. What if Iowa's virus situation isn't settled in time for B10s -- do Lee, Kemerer, and Marinelli get seeded below all those other conference champs?
 
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Sounds good in theory but there are 7 conferences -- how to differentiate between their champs, in a year with so few matches and B10 banning non-conference competition?

If we look at 133: Fix, Phillippi, McGhee, and (most likely) the B10 champ will all be undefeated.

At 157: Carr and Hidlay will be unbeaten. Possibly also Deakin and Dellavecchia. And EIWA has 3 undefeated starters.

At HWT: top 3 wrestlers are all B10 -- the "conference champ" model puts Parris and Cass behind Stencel/Laird, Wood, and whoever wins ACC, B12, and Pac 12.
Good points. Guess there is no easy seeding method, especially this year.
 
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Here’s my .2 cents:

125:
For the first match of his college career, I think Howard looked really good, Medley is no slouch. Howard showed athleticism, poise, ability to ride, and got off bottom. I think he tired a little but I expected that ( nerves ). I’m excited to watch him learn from this match and continue to improve, I think he’ll be the surprise of the lineup. Too soon to make a March prediction after one match.

133:
Ragusin wrestled a smart match. RBY likes the front head and arm and he stayed out of it. Seemed like Rag did a good job of slowing RBY down. I would have liked RBY to create a few more opportunities through the match, but an overall solid win over a really good wrestler who I think could be a finalist at 125. I think he’ll be on tv Saturday night.

141:
Its already been said on here I think but you get 1 pt for riding time after 1 min, doesn’t matter if it’s 6 mins, still 1 pt. Maybe it’s a little rust, maybe he was told to ride, not sure. If Nick is making that decision, once you realize you won’t be getting near falls, it’s a catch and release game to get the bonus. Plus by tendering a guy up on the feet, usually opens him up on bottom. Stall calls could have helped that as well, but they weren’t coming, so take it out of the refs hands and put it in yours. I still like Nick to stand at the top of the podium.

149:
Bear Claw has a freakin gas tank. That will play huge dividends moving forward. Does a good job getting to his feet, but doesn’t create hip separation which made for easy mat returns. Good news, that’s easily fixable. I honestly think he’s gonna be the guy at BIGs. I think BB is the most talented guy, but I just don’t think he has the size. I think BearClaw scores points at the tournament, maybe not a lot, but I think he scores.

157:
Berge has the skills to open that match up a bit more. But, he’s never really been that guy. He’s extremely tough to score on, and for the most part, a counter wrestler. I think he was in total control the whole time, and showed when he needs a takedown he can throw a few different looks out there and eventually get one. I’m thinking high podium.

165:
The only slight disappointment I had during the match. If Joe wrestled a senior, I wouldn’t be as disappointed, but it was a fellow freshman. Another wrestler who can get to his feet, but didn’t create separation, or when he got lifted, didn’t bring his knees to his chest ready to hit the mat and wrestle. I think the gas tank looked a little better, but still can improve. I would have felt a lot better about the match if he would have been going after a takedown and got in deep atleast once, but that didn’t happen. Still, not at the worry point yet. Im going with R16 right now, but something tells me AA.

174:
C* showed what we all knew. He has it to beat anyone. A little surprised how tired he looked, but he put his nose to the grindstone and got it done. For whatever reason, he hasn’t been as offensive as we’ve seen him in the past ( scuffle, nlwc cards ). He’ll figure that out though. Hopefully he continues to improve and meets Kem in the BIG finals. That’s a can’t miss.

184:
Not much to say about Brooks. Bullock was a gamer and actually came to wrestle ( more than I can say about most of the UM guys ). Top of the podium.

197:
Beard loses to Amine by 3 and everyone is freaking out. Amine is a 3x AA, never lost to Hall by more than 2 I believe, and I believe made an Olympic team. He was ranked 1 at 84, he’s healthy, crafty, and a seasoned vet. This is Beards 2nd starting match? Got in deep on a few shots, had a few nice counters, and battled the whole time fixing what I thought was his biggest issue, the gas tank. IMO he’s right there with the top guys. I think he’s much better on top then what he showed, but the knee deal is worrisome. If he’s 100% come show time, high AA.

285:
Another weight I can’t figure out that some posters discussed. Snacks didn’t lose to some freshman that nobody has ever heard of. He lost to Mason Parris. The same guy that was a 3x Indiana state champ, Junior World Champ, and only had 1 loss on his record last year ( 8-6 to Gable in BIG finals ). Snacks wrestled well, he’s just not as good, as strong, or as athletic as Mason, which is absolutely nothing to be ashamed about. Do I think Kerk is, yes, I think Kerk goes right with Mason, but Kerk isn’t wrestling, and I’m damn proud to have Snacks in the blue and white. I know it didn’t show, but I think he’s closer to Cass this year than he was last. In the words of Aaron Rodgers, relax. He’s an AA.

Super excited to watch this young team to compete and grow. They’ll only get better, We Are!
 
I am surprised that more people don't get caught when trying a Granby. Any of you ex-wrestlers/refs/coaches care to explain? Was it just a great move by Carter?
It can be effective when explosive and at some angle. Massa did neither. Completely straight-on, and could've timed it with a sundial.

It's not that uncommon for top to passively follow the Granby and end up back on top in base position. Often a momentary release, then catch at the end of the roll.

What Starocci did is another story. Nobody ends up in that position. That is, unless they've been working out with Jason Nolf.

BTW, here's one that worked.

taylor3_medium.gif
 
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I am surprised that more people don't get caught when trying a Granby. Any of you ex-wrestlers/refs/coaches care to explain? Was it just a great move by Carter?

If you watch replay, you can see Carter anticipate Massa's Granby Roll - as soon as his back goes to the mat, Carter sprawls such that his legs go back and he goes chest-to-chest with Massa who is flat on his back. Two big problems with Massa's Granby attempt- Carter clearly anticipated it and picked it up as soon as he attempted it, but secondly, Massa's attempt was not very explosive and easily stopped.
 
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It can be effective when explosive and at some angle. Massa did neither. Completely straight-on, and could've timed it with a sundial.

It's not that uncommon for top to passively follow the Granby and end up back on top in base position. Often a momentary release, then catch at the end of the roll.

What Starocci did is another story. Nobody ends up in that position. That is, unless they've been working out with Jason Nolf.

Yes, you could see Carter anticipate it and drop his legs back into Wynn Dixie (i.e., head/shoulder figure-4) such that his hips upper-body went chest-to-chest when he trapped the head/shoulder with his legs.
 
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I am surprised that more people don't get caught when trying a Granby. Any of you ex-wrestlers/refs/coaches care to explain? Was it just a great move by Carter?
Really important to clear your legs on a Granby...if you hit it and your legs get caught on the roll, its trouble and likely back points. In this case Massa tried to hit it while Starocci was still holding his ankle.
 
It can be effective when explosive and at some angle. Massa did neither. Completely straight-on, and could've timed it with a sundial.

It's not that uncommon for top to passively follow the Granby and end up back on top in base position. Often a momentary release, then catch at the end of the roll.

What Starocci did is another story. Nobody ends up in that position. That is, unless they've been working out with Jason Nolf.

BTW, here's one that worked.

taylor3_medium.gif

I'd take my kids anywhere for a good camp. A dad at a neighboring school suggested we send his kid, my son and another decent wrestler to The Granby camp down in Virginia Beach. He put me in charge of registering them. The dad who was suggesting it had a son was about 5th grade. My boy and the third kid were Jr. High age.

I screwed up. I didn't realize until it was too late that there were two Granby schools. One with the Martin's and one with a guy who left the Martin's. I registered for the other.

We made the best of it. All three dads did a Western Pennsylvania drive down and back in one day dropped them off.

Mid camp I called my son to see if he was alive. He was fine, camp was OK, but he said his camp buddy Jake was going to get tossed out by the leader. I asked why and he said Jake kept on countering the granby moves that were being taught ( not good for business) and they said knock it off.

Even in 5th grade(ish), Jake Herbert was ahead of the pack.



You can't beat watching a quick, forceful granby roll. Especially by a talent like Nolf with mat awareness who either reverses the opponent or gets 1 plus 2.
 
Good dual for the Nits. Dual was at their place, and travel can take some of the energy out of a person. I thought the PSU guys looked the best they have all season. In fact, each dual has seen improvement.

Howard's first bout in a PSU singlet was solid. Medley was a 4th place finisher at B1G's last year, losing only to Lee and DeAugustino. Medley was also the only wrestler that held S. Lee to a decision last year, in a dual vs Iowa. Appeared gassed near the end, but held on for the win, reaching deep. Great sign that the kid has some fight in him.

RBY looked like a man on a mission the longer the bout went. A fire was lit under him, and he went into the next gear. I like his chances this year.

Lee wanted the major. The kid across from him did exactly what he needed to do to keep that from happening, yet Nick was still only a takedown away. Next time it's be a different story. He'll learn from that bout. I like his chances this year too.

Barraclough did nearly the same vs Storr as he did vs NU's Thomas a couple weeks ago. Gave up one takedown, had terrific defense, even rode his opponent an entire period. However, he didn't score any offensive points, which is a killer at this level. They'll come with the coaches help. I really like this kid.

I am so happy for Brady, given everything he's been through. Toughed out a win against the no. 8 guy in the country. He's not an offensive juggernaut against the top guys, but his defense is superb, and he stays in position (no brain farts).

Joe Lee will learn a lot from that bout. While the kids don't like to lose, the learning is usually much greater after one like this. Still a toss-up next time against young Amine.

Wow Carter! Didn't see that coming against the no. 2 kid in the country. That's 6th year man-muscles against an 18-19 year old youngster. Still has to go out and earn future wins, but we saw the potential today. Romero will be a nice test next weekend, assuming he goes (he didn't go vs Michigan Friday night).

Brooks won handily (by five), but was in a fight. I was impressed by Bullock...the true freshman had a 2-1 record heading in, but no signs that he would be as competitive as he was. Can't take anyone lightly at this level.

Another bout against a 6th year senior. I thought Beard held his own, and with a few tweaks will be even more competitive next time. Give credit to the crafty veteran, turning Beard's offensive attacks into his own scores. Personally, though after the fact, not surprised by this bout at all. Look for improvement next time they wrestle. Beard will be a good one.

Seth was up against one of the two most athletic heavies in the country. That was the difference, and a pretty big difference to be honest. A bit more concerned about his knee than I was before that bout. If it holds up, he can have a solid showing at B1G's and NCAA's.
 
Seeding is going to be a bit of a cluster-f*** this year. Not many data points for a bunch of wrestlers. No tournaments. Individuals or teams missing due to "that which shall remain unnamed". A bunch of seeds will be settled at the conference tournaments, but still missing a lot from a normal year.
Seating will mean much more this year for PSU to have a chance at the NCAA Tourney, My hope is for seating to pit as many PSU wrestlers against Iowa guys as early as possible. Except 125, 165 and HWT where I want to avoid them as long as possible. I am not saying Iowa is not favored elsewhere, i just think we can win at any other weight and our only chance at NCAA is for Iowa to underperform. i don't trust "the Field" to make that happen.
 
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Off subject - I hope Seth and Michael are okay. I know both hurt their knee today. Michael kept fighting and Seth decided to give it a go (when points weren't needed) so I'm assuming they'll both be fine but I get so nervous with PSU wrestling and injuries now.
 
Good dual for the Nits. Dual was at their place, and travel can take some of the energy out of a person. I thought the PSU guys looked the best they have all season. In fact, each dual has seen improvement.

Howard's first bout in a PSU singlet was solid. Medley was a 4th place finisher at B1G's last year, losing only to Lee and DeAugustino. Medley was also the only wrestler that held S. Lee to a decision last year, in a dual vs Iowa. Appeared gassed near the end, but held on for the win, reaching deep. Great sign that the kid has some fight in him.

RBY looked like a man on a mission the longer the bout went. A fire was lit under him, and he went into the next gear. I like his chances this year.

Lee wanted the major. The kid across from him did exactly what he needed to do to keep that from happening, yet Nick was still only a takedown away. Next time it's be a different story. He'll learn from that bout. I like his chances this year too.

Barraclough did nearly the same vs Storr as he did vs NU's Thomas a couple weeks ago. Gave up one takedown, had terrific defense, even rode his opponent an entire period. However, he didn't score any offensive points, which is a killer at this level. They'll come with the coaches help. I really like this kid.

I am so happy for Brady, given everything he's been through. Toughed out a win against the no. 8 guy in the country. He's not an offensive juggernaut against the top guys, but his defense is superb, and he stays in position (no brain farts).

Joe Lee will learn a lot from that bout. While the kids don't like to lose, the learning is usually much greater after one like this. Still a toss-up next time against young Amine.

Wow Carter! Didn't see that coming against the no. 2 kid in the country. That's 6th year man-muscles against an 18-19 year old youngster. Still has to go out and earn future wins, but we saw the potential today. Romero will be a nice test next weekend, assuming he goes (he didn't go vs Michigan Friday night).

Brooks won handily (by five), but was in a fight. I was impressed by Bullock...the true freshman had a 2-1 record heading in, but no signs that he would be as competitive as he was. Can't take anyone lightly at this level.

Another bout against a 6th year senior. I thought Beard held his own, and with a few tweaks will be even more competitive next time. Give credit to the crafty veteran, turning Beard's offensive attacks into his own scores. Personally, though after the fact, not surprised by this bout at all. Look for improvement next time they wrestle. Beard will be a good one.

Seth was up against one of the two most athletic heavies in the country. That was the difference, and a pretty big difference to be honest. A bit more concerned about his knee than I was before that bout. If it holds up, he can have a solid showing at B1G's and NCAA's.

Beard more than held his own imo. He had him dead-to-rights twice but couldn't finish. Has to wrap him up on that second one - not a huge deal and actually could be very positive as the coaches can really help him understand what he could have done better to finish.
 
A couple of takeaways for me.

First, the team wrestled hard and didn't look rusty after another long match layoff. They are adjusting their approach in this sporadic season and figuring out how to make things work. Going on the road and beating the #2 team in the nation is no small feat and let's not forget that.

Second, I feel our more experienced wrestlers need to get more bonus points if we are going to have ANY shot at B1Gs and NCAAs. I'm in the camp that it might not matter with how deep and strong Iowa is this year and how many bonus points they are producing, but we need to do better in the bonus point area. Right now it seems our guys are waiting a bit too long before really pushing for bonus. If you go into the 3rd period needing 2-3 TDs to make it happen, you've gotta be on the attack immediately and even then it can be difficult, particularly if the ref isn't calling stalling. It seems we were waiting just a bit too long against Michigan and ran out of time in several instances. Being up 4-2 after one is fine but only being up 4- 5 after two is a problem if you are trying to bonus.

Third, our very young team is at a huge disadvantage given how short this season is. Our freshman aren't getting the full year of experience that a frosh usually get (and needs!) before lacing them up at the National and this is going to be an issue. As expected, some of the freshman are having difficulties getting out from bottom and also putting themselves in bad positions. I worry coaches don't have enough time to correct these things at this point which means perhaps some challenges come tournament time.
 
Overall I was pleased with team effort.
Howard had great win. I thought 3rd period would be tough on him. He did great job at end to get single leg to finish match.
A lot of the issues/concerns have been covered above. My one add on is I wish I saw more scoring from space. Most of the bouts were wrestled ear to ear. Some of that comes with trusting yourself to commit to that move. Blast doubles do work for the bigger guys.
I assume some of the lack of space scoring was how athletic Michigan was at their bigger weights.
 
This. I believe the clock on BTN was slow by a couple seconds. Watching the replay you could hear the buzzer a good bit before the clock showed 0.

Yeah, that is generally true. Not sure why BTN can't get them synced up.
 
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