PSU vs. Penn Discussion Thread

[js8793]

I think some of the higher expectations for Barraclough were likely due to his freestyle win over previous AA Kyle Shoop, which one would think could at least translate to “points at NCAA’s.”

But, if he can’t get off the bottom, that’s one area that wouldn’t be evident in freestyle. However, it’s also an area where many guys can improve (except at tOSU).

and i think that’s a good example of how fans come to have unrealistic expectations. shoop was a surprise aa who is really good at one thing, tilts. he went on a heater at ncaas and turned guys left and right. any match that takes that out the equation is a poor measuring stick.

so you have two things: a folkstyle specialist and a guy who went on a run. he came back down to earth during the next season, but fans want to see what they want to see so instead of seeing “bearclaw beat a smaller tilt specialist who had a great tournament 2 years ago but has proven to be a 15ish type guy over the long term” they saw “bearclaw beat an all american. this must mean he’s an aa contender too”

 

[js8793]

But the poster compared the 3 seed having to wrestle the 1 seed in the consi semis with the 1 seed having to wrestle the 5 seed in the same.

The 5 seed wrestled to chalk. The 1 seed didn’t.

complaining about having to wrestle the 5 seed in the consi semis makes no sense. It’s where they were predicted to be.

you’re missing the point ( also he ran into marsteller in the consi quarters). the 1 and the 5 wrestling in the consi quarters guarantees one will wrestle below seed even though the 1 lost to the champ and the 5 lost to the 4 (who he then beat). in order to make this point you have to lean on seeds instead of what actually happened at the tournament which is obviously a much better metric for how good everybody was on that day.

 

[mcpat]

you’re missing the point ( also he ran into marsteller in the consi quarters). the 1 and the 5 wrestling in the consi quarters guarantees one will wrestle below seed even though the 1 lost to the champ and the 5 lost to the 4 (who he then beat). in order to make this point you have to lean on seeds instead of what actually happened at the tournament which is obviously a much better metric for how good everybody was on that day.

I edited /added to my post. My point is that complaining about bad luck via bad draws at nationals is silly.

 

[crockster]

and yet the Penn kid was the one with all the offensive attempts late in the 3rd and in OT. It was also the Penn kids first Bout coming back from injury (I was sitting with the father of a penn wrestler who I know). I think Bartlett was lucky to not have been warned

if that is the Bartlett we see all year at 149, it won’t result in many, if any points in March IMO

The Penn kid had to shoot to win since he let him up in 3rd and in SV . Beau strategy in SV would be to not be taken down for 30 seconds to win. Artalona has always been good, but he was gassed, first match back or not. Beau should shoot more and I think he will. The point of the response Beau's gas tank, not how he was on his feet. He has a great will to win.

 

[PSUcup1]

The Penn kid had to shoot since he let him up in SV . Beau strategy would be to not be taken down for 30 seconds to win. Penn kid is a good wrestler no doubt. Beau should shoot more. The point of the response Beau's gas tank, not how he was on his feet. He has a great will to win.

I’m talking about the 2 minute SV period. Penn kid did all the work. BB was lucky to not get dinged. I’m sure Beau will improve and adjust as the season goes on. However I just dont see him having high level success at this weight.

 

[WEAREPSU_LI]

Beau was wrestling to counter. He was in on three attempts, you can't call stalling there. They were both working.

 

[crockster]

I’m talking about the 2 minute SV period. Penn kid did all the work. BB was lucky to not get dinged. I’m sure Beau will improve and adjust as the season goes on. However I just dont see him having high level success at this weight.

He should shoot more. He could tell Artalona was tired and possibly get sloppy as well. Artalona also backed up a lot. Beau has always been a better counter wrestler. I agree he needs to trust his offense more. He took down Saaso last year. Time will tell how he does. Not willing to make predictions after 3 or 4 matches in November and early December. He has beaten 3 ranked kids so far on his will to win and his gas tank, which is nothing to sneeze at..

 

[slushhead]

He should shoot more. He could tell Artalona was tired and possibly get sloppy as well. Beau has always been a better counter wrestler. I agree he needs to trust his offense more. He took down Saaso last year. Time will tell how he does. Not willing to make predictions after 3 or 4 matches in November and early December. He has beaten 3 ranked kids so far on his will to win and his gas tank, which is nothing to sneeze at..

With all due respect, I think people hang onto that TD of Sasso too much and overvalue it. Ancient history, and just a blip of a data point. I remember Hayes taking down Zain twice in a period one year. It ended up meaning nothing.

I agree time will tell. Bartlett might see Diakomihalis and Parco in a few weeks. Those will be big tests. If Murin isn’t going by the end of January, the rest of Bartlett’s slate might just be a bunch more #20-30 types (Lara, Rooks, Van Brill, Storr, Omania) until February, when he may then see Sasso and Lovett before B1Gs.

We’ll want to see some improvement on these scores in January. It’s great that he can win close ones, but it is tough to keep winning that way at Nationals. Maybe Dean Heil being an exception.

Right now, Bartlett reminds me a lot of a little Eric Bradley, who was a very good wrestler and could score when he needed to, but the 1-point differentials couldn’t always go his way.

 

[js8793]

I edited /added to my post. My point is that complaining about bad luck via bad draws at nationals is silly.

oh it wasn't really a complaint. the problem is easily solved by him winning the matches. it's more about how we as fans look back at the result and interpret it. did he underperform? yes a little. was the only the 7th best guy in the bracket that weekend? no, not imo.

 

[js8793]

Beau was wrestling to counter. He was in on three attempts, you can't call stalling there. They were both working.

if i said this about jacob warner i would get laughed out of the room lol

 

[1032004]

and i think that’s a good example of how fans come to have unrealistic expectations. shoop was a surprise aa who is really good at one thing, tilts. he went on a heater at ncaas and turned guys left and right. any match that takes that out the equation is a poor measuring stick.

so you have two things: a folkstyle specialist and a guy who went on a run. he came back down to earth during the next season, but fans want to see what they want to see so instead of seeing “bearclaw beat a smaller tilt specialist who had a great tournament 2 years ago but has proven to be a 15ish type guy over the long term” they saw “bearclaw beat an all american. this must mean he’s an aa contender too”

Even if Shoop was just “a top 15ish guy,” that should still be “points at NCAA’s.” Shoop was a 4x NQ and is probably like 5 years older than Barraclough. But, I think that was also like the first post-Covid match and with Shoop having finished his eligibility who knows how much he was training.

But if anything, maybe it’s just more evidence of FS success not necessarily translating to folkstyle. And it’s not just PSU fans that are guilty of sometimes putting too much stock into FS results. But to be fair, that was one of the few data points we had at the time for Barraclough against quality competition.

 

[wrestlinPSU]

With all due respect, I think people hang onto that TD of Sasso too much and overvalue it. Ancient history, and just a blip of a data point. I remember Hayes taking down Zain twice in a period one year. It ended up meaning nothing.

I agree time will tell. Bartlett might see Diakomihalis and Parco in a few weeks. Those will be big tests. If Murin isn’t going by the end of January, the rest of Bartlett’s slate might just be a bunch more #20-30 types (Lara, Rooks, Van Brill, Storr, Omania) until February, when he may then see Sasso and Lovett before B1Gs.

We’ll want to see some improvement on these scores in January. It’s great that he can win close ones, but it is tough to keep winning that way at Nationals. Maybe Dean Heil being an exception.

Right now, Bartlett reminds me a lot of a little Eric Bradley, who was a very good wrestler and could score when he needed to, but the 1-point differentials couldn’t always go his way.

Starocci won nail-biters all last season. He did OK.

 

[js8793]

Even if Shoop was just “a top 15ish guy,” that should still be “points at NCAA’s.” Shoop was a 4x NQ and is probably like 5 years older than Barraclough. But, I think that was also like the first post-Covid match and with Shoop having finished his eligibility who knows how much he was training.

But if anything, maybe it’s just more evidence of FS success not necessarily translating to folkstyle. And it’s not just PSU fans that are guilty of sometimes putting too much stock into FS results. But to be fair, that was one of the few data points we had at the time for Barraclough against quality competition.

you kind of answered your own question, but you also left out that shoop is the definition of a falkstyle specialist. you can't wait until you get on top to crosswrist tilt people in freestyle. he was also a 141, not a 149.

 

[slushhead]

Starocci won nail-biters all last season. He did OK.

That’s fair game. Bartlett being undersized and of a stockier build is enough of a difference from CStar’s situation last year, though, to have me more concerned. We’ll see. The latter kept knocking off every #2-ranked guy the schedule could throw at him. If Bartlett can show that kind of performance vs. Top 10s later this month or in February, then I’ll be sold on the comparison.

 

[js8793]

That’s fair game. Bartlett being undersized and of a stockier build is enough of a difference from CStar’s situation last year, though, to have me more concerned. We’ll see. The latter kept knocking off every #2-ranked guy the schedule could throw at him. If Bartlett can show that kind of performance vs. Top 10s later this month or in February, then I’ll be sold on the comparison.

yeah somewhat misleading considering Starocci was wrestling top 5 guys every week last year because of the reduced schedule.

 

[82bordeaux]

if that is the Bartlett we see all year at 149, it won’t result in many, if any points in March IMO

Did I hear this said about Starocci at one point last year?

 

[PSUcup1]

Did I hear this said about Starocci at one point last year?

Not that I recall…. And certainly Not from me.

and as previously noted by other posters, Staroccis “nail biters” were against top 10 guys, returning AAs, etc….

and Carters low scores weren’t due to a physical disparity in length. I’m not discounting BB’s ability at all. I just fear his physical make up is a huge disadvantage at 149

 

[js8793]

Did I hear this said about Starocci at one point last year?

no lol

 

[WEAREPSU_LI]

if i said this about jacob warner i would get laughed out of the room lol

I mean, I do want Beau to shoot and be more aggressive, but I've already said here that he probably isn't because of his clear size disadvantages. If he's at 141 he's probably going to be shooting more. Your comment is fair though.

 

[dunkej01]

and yet the Penn kid was the one with all the offensive attempts late in the 3rd and in OT. It was also the Penn kids first Bout coming back from injury (I was sitting with the father of a penn wrestler who I know). I think Bartlett was lucky to not have been warned

if that is the Bartlett we see all year at 149, it won’t result in many, if any points in March IMO

A couple things can be correct at the same............

Beau looks strong in his lungs and his positioning.

The penn kid looked dogged tired from late 2nd into OT. Coming down from 157 and injury and flu and life...it just takes time. But I'll be watching for him to make the NC field.

Beau has offense we have seen it before. It didn't suddenly go away.

Beau could/should have been dinged as everything he seemed to do or want to do was off penn action.

We've seen many many wrestlers ride this thought process to glory as NC or AA. But it's not the psu way with cael. Which I'm sure Beau knows well. But at this point his coaches and he feel this strategy is best for him. I have no doubt cody is watching his film and they are talking about it.

Beau s dad and uncle wrestled at a high level. Beau was on the world team. Beau has wrestled the best as the best for years.

It's boring wrestling but I'm taking a chillax position with him.

157 not so much. I think he is who he is and if JLee can't figure that one out...well we ride with who we got and hope for the best. It is what it is. But bashing the poor kid all the time and there will be more of this through out the season is just silly. He may sneak up on a guy here or there but what we see is what we get. We'll embrace those wins but he is who he is. No point in harping on it.

We probably can't beat the squawks in a dual for sure and probably the NC but oh well. I just want competition and that means healthy kids through out the country.

#itrustincael
#embracethegrind
#WEARE

 

[Antaeus]

Not that I recall…. And certainly Not from me.

and as previously noted by other posters, Staroccis “nail biters” were against top 10 guys, returning AAs, etc….

and Carters low scores weren’t due to a physical disparity in length. I’m not discounting BB’s ability at all. I just fear his physical make up is a huge disadvantage at 149

Wikipedia disagrees.
Frank Molinaro is a nationally recognized American wrestler and coach. He was the 2012 NCAA Champion with an undefeated season record of 33–0 at 149 pounds, helping him become a four-time NCAA Division I All-American.
Height: 5′ 5″

 

[nerfstate]

To my eyes, Beau is a very strong guy. What he seems to lack at 149 that he didn’t at Jr Worlds, for instance, was the leverage to use that strength to set up his attacks. Much of his offense is “short offense,” that requires getting your opponent in a bad spot and then capitalizing. The super crisp Sasso takedown is something of an anomaly, from most of the wrestling I’ve seen Beau do. What I see him doing this year is use his strength and elite positioning to wear the bigger guys down. It reminds me a lot of the year McCutcheon went 197 for the team (before injury). Other PSU guys have done the same thing when small (Manville vs Myles comes to mind). Pull the head with collar ties, punish from front head, and plan on making your hay in the 3rd.

Can be effective. Although the margin for error is certainly very thin. I just don’t think it’s realistic to expect to see beau launching head inside singles and doubles from space very much this year. The risk to reward ratio is lacking.

All that doesn’t mean that he can’t improve in the offensive confidence department. Beau is more athletic than Cutch and Manville (that reversal last night was sweet). I think he will improve to a degree over the course of the season. how many points he’s able to score at NCAA‘s remains to be seen.

 

[dunkej01]

you’re missing the point ( also he ran into marsteller in the consi quarters). the 1 and the 5 wrestling in the consi quarters guarantees one will wrestle below seed even though the 1 lost to the champ and the 5 lost to the 4 (who he then beat). in order to make this point you have to lean on seeds instead of what actually happened at the tournament which is obviously a much better metric for how good everybody was on that

While the season just got started and so much is to come the bull debates are so tiring. I can't wait for him to move on w his career. Someone says something the fire fighters run in and all that happens is......nothing.

Come up with something witty about how he will kick butt this year....say he was short on redbull at ncaas....something

But falling into the bull trap again....again...again....AND again would be best played out on ON3 or 247

 

[crockster]

With all due respect, I think people hang onto that TD of Sasso too much and overvalue it. Ancient history, and just a blip of a data point. I remember Hayes taking down Zain twice in a period one year. It ended up meaning nothing.

I agree time will tell. Bartlett might see Diakomihalis and Parco in a few weeks. Those will be big tests. If Murin isn’t going by the end of January, the rest of Bartlett’s slate might just be a bunch more #20-30 types (Lara, Rooks, Van Brill, Storr, Omania) until February, when he may then see Sasso and Lovett before B1Gs.

We’ll want to see some improvement on these scores in January. It’s great that he can win close ones, but it is tough to keep winning that way at Nationals. Maybe Dean Heil being an exception.

Right now, Bartlett reminds me a lot of a little Eric Bradley, who was a very good wrestler and could score when he needed to, but the 1-point differentials couldn’t always go his way.

We will see what happens. Only 4 matches into the season and its early December . So far so good.

 

[mcpat]

A couple things can be correct at the same............

Beau looks strong in his lungs and his positioning.

The penn kid looked dogged tired from late 2nd into OT. Coming down from 157 and injury and flu and life...it just takes time. But I'll be watching for him to make the NC field.

Beau has offense we have seen it before. It didn't suddenly go away.

Beau could/should have been dinged as everything he seemed to do or want to do was off penn action.

We've seen many many wrestlers ride this thought process to glory as NC or AA. But it's not the psu way with cael. Which I'm sure Beau knows well. But at this point his coaches and he feel this strategy is best for him. I have no doubt cody is watching his film and they are talking about it.

Beau s dad and uncle wrestled at a high level. Beau was on the world team. Beau has wrestled the best as the best for years.

It's boring wrestling but I'm taking a chillax position with him.

157 not so much. I think he is who he is and if JLee can't figure that one out...well we ride with who we got and hope for the best. It is what it is. But bashing the poor kid all the time and there will be more of this through out the season is just silly. He may sneak up on a guy here or there but what we see is what we get. We'll embrace those wins but he is who he is. No point in harping on it.

We probably can't beat the squawks in a dual for sure and probably the NC but oh well. I just want competition and that means healthy kids through out the country.

#itrustincael
#embracethegrind
#WEARE

With our full lineup, I don’t there is a team that can beat us in a dual. I think we have the best wrestler on the nation at 133, 141, 174, 184 and 197. I think only Minnesota can beat us at HWT. It’s really hard to beat a team when your automatically giving away 6 wins to them.

 

[Cowbell Man]

Wikipedia disagrees.
Frank Molinaro is a nationally recognized American wrestler and coach. He was the 2012 NCAA Champion with an undefeated season record of 33–0 at 149 pounds, helping him become a four-time NCAA Division I All-American.
Height: 5′ 5″

And 5’5” is gracious.

 

[slushhead]

Wikipedia disagrees.
Frank Molinaro is a nationally recognized American wrestler and coach. He was the 2012 NCAA Champion with an undefeated season record of 33–0 at 149 pounds, helping him become a four-time NCAA Division I All-American.
Height: 5′ 5″

As a freshman, Molinaro was at 141 and not giving up size. At 149, he was Gorilla Hulk and not giving up size.

Freshman giving up size and length is what has me reserving confidence for BB this season until I see more data.

 

[El-Jefe]

With our full lineup, I don’t there is a team that can beat us in a dual. I think we have the best wrestler on the nation at 133, 141, 174, 184 and 197. I think only Minnesota can beat us at HWT. It’s really hard to beat a team when your automatically giving away 6 wins to them.

Can Max Dean deadlift 665 lb?

 

[mcpat]

Can Max Dean deadlift 665 lb?

He only needs to arm curl his foot in a bow and arrow.

 

[jack66]

While the season just got started and so much is to come the bull debates are so tiring. I can't wait for him to move on w his career. Someone says something the fire fighters run in and all that happens is......nothing.

Come up with something witty about how he will kick butt this year....say he was short on redbull at ncaas....something

But falling into the bull trap again....again...again....AND again would be best played out on ON3 or 247

And Warner debates are not far behind.

 

[slushhead]

He only needs to arm curl his foot in a bow and arrow.

And keep him away from the trunk of his car.

 

[1032004]

With our full lineup, I don’t there is a team that can beat us in a dual. I think we have the best wrestler on the nation at 133, 141, 174, 184 and 197. I think only Minnesota can beat us at HWT. It’s really hard to beat a team when your automatically giving away 6 wins to them.

If Kerk beats Cassioppi then you’re right, but that’s probably more of a tossup at best, which likely decides the dual IMO. Although wouldn’t count out Bartlett against Murin.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

If Kerk beats Cassioppi then you’re right, but that’s probably more of a tossup at best, which likely decides the dual IMO. Although wouldn’t count out Bartlett against Murin.

I can't wait for the Iowa dual, and just want us at full strength. Trying to be realistic, I see at least 1 of our national champs will lose. Odds are it is Nick as he has the toughest matchup/opponent IMO, and January is still early on our calendar. Brands will have his team peaking for that match and as we all know we don't even peak for Bigs.

If we can avoid big bonus at 125 & 157 it will likely come down to 197 and HWT. I feel really good about both of those weights. Especially 197. I have never been on the Warner bandwagon. A strong AA yes, a NC contender no IMO. Dean is going to be a tough out for anyone.

 

[mcpat]

I can't wait for the Iowa dual, and just want us at full strength. Trying to be realistic, I see at least 1 of our national champs will lose. Odds are it is Nick as he has the toughest matchup/opponent IMO, and January is still early on our calendar. Brands will have his team peaking for that match and as we all know we don't even peak for Bigs.

If we can avoid big bonus at 125 & 157 it will likely come down to 197 and HWT. I feel really good about both of those weights. Especially 197. I have never been on the Warner bandwagon. A strong AA yes, a NC contender no IMO. Dean is going to be a tough out for anyone.

I have an extra pair of blue and white goggles; sounds like you need a pair.

I say we win at 133, 141, 149, 174, 184, 197 and Hwt. And if we have a certain transfer from CMU at 125 and Iowa still isn’t wrestling Spencer Lee, we take 125 too!

 

[mcpat]

Too many Debbie Downers. Our team, at full strength, and especially with Hildebrandt (if that happens), is truly incredible.

125 AA
133 Champ
141 Champ
149 AA
157 Too early to predict points
165 NQ with points at a min
174 Champ
184 Champ
197 Champ
HWT Finalist

130 points before bonus.

 

[El-Jefe]

I have an extra pair of blue and white goggles; sounds like you need a pair.

I say we win at 133, 141, 149, 174, 184, 197 and Hwt. And if we have a certain transfer from CMU at 125 and Iowa still isn’t wrestling Spencer Lee, we take 125 too!

On a neutral mat I'd mostly agree. 149, 174, 197, and HWT are on paper toss-ups, though I think we'd at least split those and probably take 3.

But at Iowa? We should always expect something to go wrong, and maybe more than one thing. Mark Hall got Carvered twice. It's gonna happen, just a matter of how much.

 

[nerfstate]

Who had the over on page 5 for this Penn match thread turning into an Iowa discussion? Collect your payout.

 

[js8793]

While the season just got started and so much is to come the bull debates are so tiring. I can't wait for him to move on w his career. Someone says something the fire fighters run in and all that happens is......nothing.

Come up with something witty about how he will kick butt this year....say he was short on redbull at ncaas....something

But falling into the bull trap again....again...again....AND again would be best played out on ON3 or 247

the thought that immediately came to my mind after posting was "wait why am i still doing this?" you're right and that will hopefully be the last Marinelli NCAA argument I get into on here. Alas I'm only human...

 

[GantryZ]

. Alas I'm only human...

Obligatory Fear of a Black Hat:

 

[backdrft76]

Who had the over on page 5 for this Penn match thread turning into an Iowa discussion? Collect your payout.

It's funny because the same thing used to happen over at HR during the time we had the better teams. Many of their threads turned into PSU themed discussions. Flip the script, and now we're doing the same damn thing here.