Southern Scuffle Thread
- Thread starter NittanyChris
- Start date
Kid came out of nowhere didn't he? Opposing coaches have no idea what to do, it's a real problem.
Well, one of them won't be going in March, because you can't send two. Will that effect chemistry?
OK then....great, now you can stop being so fricken argumentative and stop making "calls" as if you know better than the coach.
Maybe. Geno and Rasheed expected to fight it out this season, which will probably continue to happen for maybe another month.
And, I would believe that Hall wants a shot at Caels undefeated record that would improve greatly with another year in the room before starting.
And not pulling it could cost us the title this year.
I'm fine with whatever Cael decides (personally I would have him out there If Mark was on board with it).
But the notion of not pulling it now because it could cost us 5 years from now is odd to me. its akin to the baseball manager not using his closer in a tie game on the road.
I'm in the I'll be happy either way camp.
Also, I may be in the minority, but I've enjoyed the back and forth banter about the Hall redshirt.
I'd like to add three points. One, how cool would it be if we win the NC this year without Mark, and the 'Pokes, Hawks, and Bucks go into the offseason with that terrible sinking feeling that realistically they'd be fighting for 2nd place in 2018?
Second, for anyone who is frustrated by this debate, I'd say the discussion would be different and less enthusiastic if Mark hadn't won.
Third, how soon until we're comparing Suriano / Hall with Nolf / Nickal and asking which twosome had the more impressive debuts? I know it's really early, but holy cow Nick has already knocked off two #4 seeds and Mark has knocked off a 3 seed, and 6 months ago they were both in high school. Remember our friends who told us that PSU would never see another Ruth / Taylor combo? Now we MAY have two such combos on the same team
. And they'll have two full years together, at minimum. And then on top of that, we also have two years of Zain. Life is grand for PSU wrestling fans! Happy New Year's fellas.
Also, I may be in the minority, but I've enjoyed the back and forth banter about the Hall redshirt.
I'd like to add three points. One, how cool would it be if we win the NC this year without Mark, and the 'Pokes, Hawks, and Bucks go into the offseason with that terrible sinking feeling that realistically they'd be fighting for 2nd place in 2018?
Second, for anyone who is frustrated by this debate, I'd say the discussion would be different and less enthusiastic if Mark hadn't won.
Third, how soon until we're comparing Suriano / Hall with Nolf / Nickal and asking which twosome had the more impressive debuts? I know it's really early, but holy cow Nick has already knocked off two #4 seeds and Mark has knocked off a 3 seed, and 6 months ago they were both in high school. Remember our friends who told us that PSU would never see another Ruth / Taylor combo? Now we MAY have two such combos on the same team
. And they'll have two full years together, at minimum. And then on top of that, we also have two years of Zain. Life is grand for PSU wrestling fans! Happy New Year's fellas.
Many fans and analysts had PSU as the slight preseason favorite when 197 & HWT were unknowns for PSU.
And these same folks said we don't need Hall to wrestle this year.
Now we have 197 & HWT figured out and becoming clear, with AAs probable at each.
And Morelli looks much improved.
All the more reason why Hall won't be required this year.
And these same folks said we don't need Hall to wrestle this year.
Now we have 197 & HWT figured out and becoming clear, with AAs probable at each.
And Morelli looks much improved.
All the more reason why Hall won't be required this year.
Why is it odd? Isn't totally possible that not having MH for one year would be the difference in a possible future NC? Isn't it the same logic why some guys are fighting for redshirt and a NC this year? I know its not the same situation but why then do we shirt ZR, JN, BN, isn't that to build a stronger team in the future?
I have been seriously planning for my retirement for a very long time and if I hadn't I would have been a fool. Not having a 5 year plan is what is foolish.
The staff nearly pulled Joesph's shirt last season, but concluded they would be ok with everything the way it was.
If they conclude there is a strong possibility they don't win the team title without Mark in the lineup, then they will pull his shirt. If they think they are ok with things the way they are they aren't pulling that shirt.
Nope, theres only one true cesspool!
The rankings also disagree with Hall as "the best 174 in the country right now." Strange how one can show deference for the rankings in one instance but not another.
IMO Penn States chances of beating the rankings and winning the title without Hall are every bit as good as Halls are of beating the rankings and winning 174.
The best decision on Hall's shirt getting pulled will be made when the time comes, guess I just don't think the time is now.
Guys... honestly did him making the semis at this tournament surprise anyone? I don't see any new information being uncovered here. He's super good. I think Cael can assess what he has in the room with the caliber of people in there. Not based on one match with a prior AA. 57-84 is locked up for years to come.
Because while we want team championships, sometimes maybe the kids want to get better to prepare themselves for 4x NCAA championships or the Olympics. I know it's hard to swallow, but they might not be all in for the team trophy. Especially when you weigh in we could win it without him too. By no means am I saying Hall is a me first person, but what happens if we win this year (which is likely) and we didn't give up his shirt. A run of 5 will be great. Keeping a talent like mark hall on campus for as long as you can benefits everyone.
Well, if he wrestles this year there is no 4 year undefeated record. The loss in the Michigan tournament becomes part of his freshman record if he does use his redshirt this year.
So yeah, the chances do improve. From zero to something greater than zero.
I see you are new here, so I FIFY...Now you have credibility.
Thanks. Long time reader, try to stay quiet and just read. What people forget is how good Cael is at getting the most out of individuals for the betterment of the team (and my entertainment). He could write a book for corporate managers on how to get the most of out of people. I'm more concerned about not having a mid season tournament under our belt before nationals than if Hall's shirt will be pulled. Especially with this young of a team.
Totally understand hanging in the background to simply read -- and sorry if any part of my joke seemed condescending. You make good points.
My only quibble might be that, despite its youthfulness, this team has a lot of coaches. We should remember that guys like Zain and Nolf are going to do a ton to help guide and motivate this team to success. Wise beyond their years.
So I was never going to become the most insufferable Mark Hall fan.
Wow. Went to bed after reading a PSU wrestling forum and woke up to a HR dumpster fire ...
In Cael I trust.
In Cael I trust.
1st World Problem. I'm in the camp that say's lets see how he does today before arguing about this.
Just remember when your right its a debate, when your wrong it's an argument
I'm very ambivalent about whether to leave the shirt on or not. Firmly in the undecided camp right now. Some points to consider:
1. Hall is ready this year to make a run at first place. Is he guaranteed a title? Of course not, but there is no one at 74 against whom he'd be a major underdog. The "he's undersized" or "needs more work on bottom" arguments don't hold water for me.
2. I think, barring injury, we will repeat as champions this year without Hall. Suriano will be top 4 and has as good a shot as anyone to be in the finals against Gilman. Nolf and Zain should cruise to titles with massive bonus points. Bo will be no lower than 2nd. Nevills is really stepping up this year and could be a high AA. 97 is weak and Cutch may AA also.
3. Despite my #2, I do think it will be a lot closer than many on this board are stating. OkSt, while not having the bonus points we do, are deeper than us 1 to 10. If Clark comes back healthy, Iowa can certainly win it all if they pull a shirt at 65. tOSU is not out of it either. It will be very, very close.
4. I reject that argument that those calling for pulling the shirt somehow do not trust Cael or are being "unsupportive". Reasonable people can have differences of opinion and while Cael certainly knows far more about wrestling than anyone on this board, no one is infallible. No one.
5. Hall and Cael likely came up with the redshirt plan together. It may even have been a condition for his coming to PSU. That does merit some respect.
So, there's more, but that's enough for now. I remain firmly in the undecided camp. Either way, I will enjoy watching our amazing young men this season while always appreciating the work Cael has done making us the best college wrestling program in the world. Roar Lions Roar!!!
PS - I don't think Cael is 100% decided either!
1. Hall is ready this year to make a run at first place. Is he guaranteed a title? Of course not, but there is no one at 74 against whom he'd be a major underdog. The "he's undersized" or "needs more work on bottom" arguments don't hold water for me.
2. I think, barring injury, we will repeat as champions this year without Hall. Suriano will be top 4 and has as good a shot as anyone to be in the finals against Gilman. Nolf and Zain should cruise to titles with massive bonus points. Bo will be no lower than 2nd. Nevills is really stepping up this year and could be a high AA. 97 is weak and Cutch may AA also.
3. Despite my #2, I do think it will be a lot closer than many on this board are stating. OkSt, while not having the bonus points we do, are deeper than us 1 to 10. If Clark comes back healthy, Iowa can certainly win it all if they pull a shirt at 65. tOSU is not out of it either. It will be very, very close.
4. I reject that argument that those calling for pulling the shirt somehow do not trust Cael or are being "unsupportive". Reasonable people can have differences of opinion and while Cael certainly knows far more about wrestling than anyone on this board, no one is infallible. No one.
5. Hall and Cael likely came up with the redshirt plan together. It may even have been a condition for his coming to PSU. That does merit some respect.
So, there's more, but that's enough for now. I remain firmly in the undecided camp. Either way, I will enjoy watching our amazing young men this season while always appreciating the work Cael has done making us the best college wrestling program in the world. Roar Lions Roar!!!
PS - I don't think Cael is 100% decided either!
Their hammers don't score bonus at nearly the rate that ours do. The data bears it out.
If mark Hall would have had his shirt pulled when certain people wanted he wouldn't have even wrestled at the scuffle. Relax. I still think two pretty good guys are battling for the spot as it is. Hall is something to watch- he looks like he is calm as can be during matches and always has. I do think he is showing improvement this year as well- those snaps were more like Nolf and the announcer even made mention of it during the match. Staying with the shirt means 4 years of a better Mark Hall than pulling it. 5/th year senior Hall will be waaayyyyy better than true frosh Hall. Scary to think about really.
Here's an interesting piece of data:
2017 Scuffle: OSU TOTAL team bonus through quarters, 17
2016 Scuffle: PSU bonus for Zain, Nolf, Nickal, Cutch, through quarters, 16
2017 Scuffle: OSU TOTAL team bonus through quarters, 17
2016 Scuffle: PSU bonus for Zain, Nolf, Nickal, Cutch, through quarters, 16
What are you doing putting real data in the middle of a perfectly good dumpster fire thread?
