as opposed to rathjen?
i’m not actually accusing beau of anything. just pointing out how stupid the people accusing rathjen of doing it a couple hours earlier are.
Match Thread Nebraska dual - Sun, Feb 18
- Thread starter backdrft76
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i’m not actually accusing beau of anything. just pointing out how stupid the people accusing rathjen of doing it a couple hours earlier are.
as opposed to rathjen? i mean desanto cried out in the exact same way too.
I've watched Bartlett going back to HS and he's not the guy who fakes an injury to stop the clock or bail himself out of a bad position. And his reaction here seems pretty genuine.
I understand the principle Amine is applying here, but think he's 100% wrong.
This knee angle occurs in almost every college wrestling match. If we are going to apply this standard for PD, we'd see 5+ PD stoppages every single match at least. It's not sustainable.
But there's a much bigger issue at hand here. By calling PD in these situations, we are incentivizing wrestlers to put themselves in danger. That is not how you protect athletes.
Hardy gained a positional advantage. Bartlett chose to try to stay square, putting his knee at that angle, instead of conceding the takedown. He was rewarded for putting himself in danger. Bad!
Zargo gained a positional advantage. Rathjen chose to put his knee in bad position instead of wrestling out of a position that would be worse, but safer on his knee. He was rewarded for this. Bad!
Haines gained a positional advantage. Instead of 1) looking into a cradle or 2) conceding the takedown, Franek maintained his position and allowed his knee to be put in bad position. He was rewarded for this. Bad!
Caliendo gained a positional advantage. Instead of wrestling from a more traditional defense, Mesenbrink jumped over top and put his knee in horrible position on purpose. He was rewarded for this. Bad!
The examples could go on and on, with every team in the country on the positive and negative end of the outcome. There's no bias here. PD should be reserved for positions that are truly dangerous, meaning positions where athletes are not able to relieve the pressure of the dangerous situations they are in. That's how you protect athletes. You keep them from purposely risking injury for short term reward!
His Stall Calls were absurdly inconsistent - three different times he called PSU wrestlers for stalling for being pushed out by Nebraska wrestlers who also intentionally took themselves out of bounds while intentionally taking themselves and the PSU wrestler OB (the Nebraska wrestlers did not shoot, nor did the PSU wrestlers do anything to "avoid being taken down" on the calls). Then he called "continuing action" multiple times (i.e., no stall call) when Nebraska wrestlers walked themselves backward OB while in a tie with the PSU wrestler who was pushing forward and taking ground???
He also failed to call Stalling on Nebraska's Smith who intentionally put his foot off the mat to get a restart and "avoid being taken down" while in the grasp after a deep shot - that is supposed to be an automatic Stall Call. Then he failed to call Stalling on Taylor who intentionally took himself OB walking backwards while dragging Messenbrink OB with him - who Taylor could not return to the mat and was struggling to move forward toward Center-Mat - with the sole intent of getting a restart to maintain Top Position. This type of action by Taylor is cited in Rulebook as an automatic stall call (top wrestler intentionally fleeing mat and taking opponent with them for sole purpose of getting restart and maintaining top position) - no call???
Also, the three pushout calls against PSU wrestlers very strange as Folk does not have a pushout rule like Free and none of the calls were associated with defensive reactions by PSU wrestlers to avoid a TD (unlike Smith non-call)??? Also, Folk rule says the wrestler intentionally taking both himself and other wrestler OB on a non-shot is the party guilty of stalling (it is diametric opposite of Free in this regard), so his calls were bizzare and inconsistent when taken in aggregate.
I understand your point, and it's well made. I still think Refs should try their best to prevent injury, and should have a lot of leeway in using their judgement thus. I'm having a hard time picturing a change such as what you seem to be proposing. Will we allow coaches to throw a brick to see if the kid could bail on a bad position or not? Should we hire mat-side ortho docs to help interpret the positions in slow-mo?
Simply not true, you don't have situations where wrestler's head is directly on knee and he is torquing leg by pulling on ankle in direction leg does not bend, 5 times a match.
LOL when your wrestling you don't know what angle any of your body will be in I doubt many wrestlers would do that on purpose!
The change I'm calling for would be to not call PD the millisecond after Bartlett's knee is 30 degrees out of joint. That did nothing to prevent any sort of injury. By the time the whistle blew, the pressure was already alleviated by Hardy progressing to cover.
IMO, this is usually called correctly actually. It's only been the last few weeks, we've seen some really bad PD calls. I can't remember whistles this quick before. Officials are anticipating bad positions and blowing them dead before they actually materialize, which is bad!
Levi Haines vs Peyton Robb - 157 LBS, with the Jeff Byers Call
I feel like any kid who starts screaming on a head inside single leg would get a PD call.
Look I think everyone knows what you’re saying and probably thinks it shouldn’t be blown. But they’re always blowing that dead in 2024 when a wrestler starts screaming in pain (and have for years).
It’s like complaining that the NFL throws flags for unavoidable head hits. It’s just what’s going to happen now, accept and move on.
If Ref is yelling "Potentially Dangerous" and then blows his whistle, then he shouldn't be a ref.
That's a lot of syllables getting in the way of injury prevention.
With DeSanto it wasn't a knee and DeSanto had earned a lot of skepticism by that point.
There was a really loud guy behind us in N4U who loved to call out for "stalling" incessantly. I think it was a refugee from Iowa.
One match he was calling for stalling, I kid you not, less than 5 seconds into the first period of one match. SMH.
Using the right leg as a lever against the knee is closer to Baylor Fernandes than to Levi.
Do you really want to continue the comparison?
I didn’t see Manning make his way up there.
I tore cartilage in my ribs and could barely breathe let alone move a number of days. Took awhile to completely heal. Lots of pain and not much you can do to heal it quicker
If it would of been a Hawk Tnt would both spank their guy on the butt. That always seems a little cringe now a days. I know, I know...
It was a knee with Desanto and he missed the next two duals and can you point to Desanto faking an injury before then?
Did anyone else think Bernie has a solid chance against Pinto on B1Gs day 2 2nd match or afterwards? Pinto was gassing yesterday and 2 or 3 consecutive days of weigh-ins will take a toll on a big guy like him.
You can't be serious...shelfing / hooking / blocking the leg is one of the most fundamental single leg finishes in wrestling.
Why is it so hard to admit you got the benefit of a bad call? It doesn't mean Bartlett would have lost. I know for 100% certain that his board would have been fuming if the singlets were switched.
The ref chose the outcome.
The N on the Nebraska helmet certainly stands for knowledge to these people.
I'm fine with people saying they think the ref made a mistake in calling PD. That's normal venting, and misconception of a situation in real time is bound to happen. Maybe he was quick on the whistle--but he did his most important job and protected the athletes. What starts to annoy me is when people start thinking it's a conspiracy, or that the sport is failing because of widespread incompetence. The refs are pros--not above reproach, but I think wrestling fans love to talk about the falling sky when in fact these guys are typically doing a very difficult job very well.
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2:10 (Davis)
20:00 (Bartlett)
53:20 (MM)
1:03:30 (Starocci)
1:12:00 (Truax)
1:25:00 (AB)
That's 6 PSU wrestlers who used their leg as a lever against the knee to shelf and/or prevent an opponent from facing a single leg in this dual. Why? Because that's what you're supposed to do!
Comparing Hardy to Fernandes is embarrassing.
Bernie was in on several good shots and could not finish. Needs to work on closing those positions out.
Have you considered that successfully executing the B&A is harder than it looks? There’s a reason that move is universally associated with Zain. He’s the only one in recent memory to truly master it, and even he couldn’t always hit it.
Plus, what Chickenman says below:
Same thing happens in upper body turns/half nelson, where the bottom wrestler won't go over and situation ends in PD.
Yea the B&A is incredibly hard to hit from normal top bottom because it is not a quick transition from other moves, it includes grabbing onto a leg with the new 5 count rules and it can very easily be called PD
This is not a sensical take IMO. Wrestlers are looking to escape, stalemate, or score. Surely it is less than 1% of wrestlers who think, “I’m gonna risk injury and put myself in danger here to get a PD call.”
And despite your list of recent examples of “bad” PD calls, PD calls really don’t get called that often for this to be an issue. And when they do, I’m in favor of deferring to the ref on the mat who is seeing and hearing data points I don’t have, including history with specific wrestlers. I say err on the side of caution and prematurely call PD ever time rather than run the risk of torching a wrestler’s season, or worse, their career.
Last night (before the third period) Bernie was one and done on his shots. Pinto on the other hand was chain wrestling while also overpowering Bernie on those two takedowns. No hesitation! Just kept moving.
In the third, Bernie went from the single to double to body lock and even though he didn’t score on the series, it was some of his best wrestling and opened him up for the TD that got it to the opportunity to steal a win at the end.
I believe Beau is a clean wrestler. I believe he was in pain. I believe the leg was being pulled in an unnatural position. I’ve watched Beau wrestle 80-some college matches and I’ve never before seen him stop wrestling in a scramble. I believe the ref stopped it before something bad happened and I’m thankful he did. If you’re an Iowa fan and you want to be upset that ADS wasn’t given the same benefit of the doubt from some on this board, there are a couple hundred guys posting on another board that will prob agree with you. Please consider going there to discuss it further with them.
That was probably me. I cant remember which match it was, but the Nebraska kid backed up 3 steps right off the whistle. That is stalling. 🤷♂️
Charles Chips…ah the good old days!! Yellowish/beige can (from a guy who is colorblind).
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