Match Thread Ohio State dual - Fri, Feb 2
- Thread starter RB-Old
- Start date
That's what had me going we just wrestled Michigan two weeks ago and it was mentioned several times that Davis wrestled twenty miles away in high school.Okay. Looks like Kilkeary beat Davis at Dapper Dan.
Ohio State recruits beat Penn State recruits, Pa. squad falls at Pittsburgh Wrestling Classic | Trib HSSN
Vinny Kilkeary and Rocco Welsh ended their high school careers with wins at the 49th annual Pittsburgh Wrestling Classic on Saturday at Peters Township.tribhssn.triblive.com
Obviously, Davis isn’t a PA state champ though.
Davis should be fine. A close call will get him ready for Ayala. I bet TnT wished Lee would have been less of a big brother to Ayala. I'm picking Davis in a fun close one.
Ha my first reaction last night, “This is the Brian Soldano I’ve heard so much about”, but it was Rogotzke.
Tyler Kasak vs Dylan D’Emilio - 149 LBS Full Match, with the Jeff Byers Call
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Beau Bartlett vs Jesse Mendez - 141 LBS, Full Match, with the Jeff Byers Call
Would someone explain the rules for awarding back points ( or a pin) to a wrestler who is in a neutral or defensive position?
I thought that Beau may have been awarded 3 back points and therefor didn't need to score a TD for the win in SV.
You have to be in control (start period on top or score a TD) to be awarded back points.
He scored a neutral danger TD by holding Men(en)dez with his back exposed for three seconds. If it had continued, he would have been awarded back points as well.
Go to page 44. This one fell under Rule 4, Section 2, Articles 2 and 3.
The difference between PSU and tOSU:
Messenbrink went under knowing he’d likely get beaten up a bit.
Feldman went neutral because he knew he’d likely get beaten up a bit if he chose down.
Messenbrink went under knowing he’d likely get beaten up a bit.
Feldman went neutral because he knew he’d likely get beaten up a bit if he chose down.
So the TD was awarded because Beau exposed Mendez's back for three seconds? If he was in control, he would have received 3 points a near fall, but since he wasn't in control at that point, he received three points for a "neutral danger TD"? And since it was SV the match ended on that TD?
OK, that seems like a matter of semantics in a SV situation, but I can see where it would matter if it wasn't SV. Thanks for the info about near falls, how about pins?
Thanks for posting the rules. They will come in handy.
Can you give me the sections for defensive pins? If you have to first have to be in control to score near fall points, do you have to first get a reversal awarded in order to score a defensive pin?
"Defensive pin" is a misnomer. It's a term also used for when a pin is called from neutral without a takedown.
If you get a reversal first, then it's no longer a defensive pin.
Bottom line is, if your shoulders are on the mat for 1 sec, you're pinned. Top, bottom, or neutral, control doesn't matter for pins.
What EJ said—but if you want a recent example of a neutral fall, see Michigan’s Dylan Ragusin vs PSU’s Aaron Nagao.
In practice, refs often seem more reticent to call neutral or bottom pins—they tend to hesitate, typically, anyway. Especially in a situation where a guy on top is “loading up” (twisting his body over to increase the torque) for a tilt, etc.
TaTo, riding the wambulance back to Columbus. Also doubling down on his recent infatuation with anger:
I’m in the minority, but I still don’t really care for video review at all. Bad calls get made and upheld—they always will be. But review significantly impacts one of the most integral parts of the sport in conditioning.
I’m in the minority, but I still don’t really care for video review at all. Bad calls get made and upheld—they always will be. But review significantly impacts one of the most integral parts of the sport in conditioning.
Good info, thanks.
As to the neutral danger TD, does the ref count the three swipes he recognized to award the TD towards back points or does he start a new count? And since the TD is awarded to someone in neutral position, will the other wrestler get an escape point by disengaging from the the neutral guy? I guess if it's counted as a TD, then that implies that he gained some kind of control and the other guy would get the point for an escape.
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Neutral danger count starts when the back is less than 90 degrees to the mat.
Near fall counts start at 45 degrees.
The compounding issue with the Beau neutral danger call was that the official “seemed” to STOP his neutral danger count for a second - seemingly to indicate that Mendez returned to 90 degrees, requiring a restart of the neutral danger count. But on his third swipe (after the hesitation) he blew his whistle and gave Beau the takedown.
Now, Beau was in clear position to finish the takedown regardless, but that hesitation gives people a reason to doubt Beau’s takedown. It shouldn’t matter as any reasonable person would infer the next natural step to a takedown, but his momentary hesitation caused the uncertainty.
One of my greatest pet peeves is when refs aren't looking for pins because they're too busy looking for control.
You cannot get near fall swipes until control is established.
In the case of danger zone, the first 3 swipes establish the takedown. Any subsequent swipes are toward NF.
And once the takedown is established, escapes are like any other escape. Though it's rare to see someone purely disengage from that position -- typically they're stuck giving up back points, or in a hurry to get to base to avoid back points.
No. They are separate counts. You get the neutral danger count, then once the takedown is awarded, nearfall count starts if applicable.
Thanks again. You answered the question I had in my last post. This is one area of the rules that I wanted to learn more about and you all have been very helpful.
And just to clarify, neutral danger in 90 degrees, NF is 45 degrees - right>??? Asking the group??
As always some d bag posts a freeze frame shot making it look clean. It wasn't clean. Takedown? Probably, but it wasn't clean.
He gasses after the second. Every match. Been that way 2 years and it ain't changing. Just like little Lord Spencer.
I think I mostly agree with this, although I would be in favor of experimenting with a ~30 second max review period. If you can't see conclusive evidence to overturn the call on the mat within that time, move on quickly. I have seen too many times where the delay gave a winded wrestler another bite at the apple that he didn't earn through conditioning.
Yes, so even if Beau’s match wasn’t in SV, he would not have gotten near fall swipes after the TD because Mendez was exposed at a 90 angle but not 45.
Oddly more enthused about Braedon after his loss (you saw the TD, too) against VK, just for what he learned. Kilkeary’s part brawler and went all Cenzo/Marinelli on Davis at the end. I’m glad Davis got thrown. He’ll know now to fight harder not to be double-underarmed. Do that and get back to the high attack rate, and I like his chances, even in Carver.
That said, any respectable ranking rep watching the match should drop Davis, not elevate him. I think 8 to 12 would be fair since Kilkeary is unranked. It gives Braedon plenty of B1G matches to rise again, which I'm confident he will.
That said, any respectable ranking rep watching the match should drop Davis, not elevate him. I think 8 to 12 would be fair since Kilkeary is unranked. It gives Braedon plenty of B1G matches to rise again, which I'm confident he will.
Kilkeary is unranked because he is redshirting. McCrone won their internal wrestle off tournament, and has been ranked in the 20-25 range all season. Regardless, Kilkeary is considered the better of the two (especially long term) and the wrestle off loss just made the decision to redshirt him easy, but it’s clear that Kilkeary would be ranked 20 or better has he been the starter from the start of the season.
What happened at end of Nagao vs Bouzakis?
Live, it looked like TD Nagao closed it to 11-10. Nagao then tried to give up the escape and go for winning TD but ref said he never lost control.
Match ends. They go to video and next thing I see is 12-7.
But score was actually 13-7.
Was the TD waived off due to a headgear pull and a penalty point awarded to Kilkeary?
Live, it looked like TD Nagao closed it to 11-10. Nagao then tried to give up the escape and go for winning TD but ref said he never lost control.
Match ends. They go to video and next thing I see is 12-7.
But score was actually 13-7.
Was the TD waived off due to a headgear pull and a penalty point awarded to Kilkeary?
The big change I want to see with review is a failed challenge costs a point, like it does in the Olympic styles. This would negate the "lunger" challenges, while still encouraging getting the calls right. I agree, the lengthy reviews need to be adjusted, but there should also be consequences for throwing a brick just to throw one.
I am confused as well. Ironhead said it was due to locked hands, which doesn't make sense since you can lock hands before the TD. Even so, had he been given the TD, which I think he should have, he would have lost 10-12 with the riding time point added.
Clearly some adjustments will help. Bouzakis has been handled pretty easily by some better wrestlers so there is an approach to how to game plan him. I suspect very few of us expected to see him down 3 TDs to zero in the first period, that is for sure.
A first step is to not allow the opponent into your legs at will? I have no idea where Aaron's head was relative to positioning, defense, and adjustments, but he had very little of all three in that first period.
Bouzakis is strong and is a pinner. We are starting to see a pattern with Aaron in that he can control a match if he gets on top and gets the boots in.
His opponents now clearly understand he is a bit vulnerable in neutral, and few will choose bottom. It's pretty critical that he scores a couple of takedowns in order to ensure he can work his top game, and wear out his opponents. Aaron is also showing he is a less than 50% guy in scrambles, mostly due to a suprising lack of postitional awareness at times.
If Aaron can tighten up his metal game, get a better feel for scramble situations and the tactics Cael teaches to win them, and play to his strengths, he is a top 4 talent. For whatever reason, given these multiple deficiencies, it's starting to look like his 'unexpected' performance at nationals last year could have been more of a perfect storm scenario than someone jumping levels before everyone's eyes.
I think he has the physical tools to hang with everyone out there, but he needs to get his head right. He is in the best room in the world to work on this stuff, but I think we are all a bit surprised that he hasn't yet jumped a level from last year. He did have that mystery injury that delayed his in-room development for months this summer as well.
We are so spoiled though. Having an AA level guy at every weight is all that we can really ask for as a team and we have that today IMO. It's the fixation on 170 especially given Iowa owns that record that has us wanting each kid to be top 4 or better.
Redshirts aside, Aaron might just have Davis or Lilledahl breathing down his neck sooner rather than later, well just have to wait and see.
I was annoyed Friday that the tOSU coaches basically bullied the refs into having an officals review at 125 instead of throwing their brick. The bitched and moaned until the refs reviewed but the brick never came out. That should not be allowed.
Speaking of that incident. Were the Buckeyes warned for that outburst from Tom? Shouldn't they have a team point deducted for that? Not that it matters, I'm just curious.
