Match Thread Ohio State dual - Fri, Feb 2

[fronk71]

What happened at end of Nagao vs Bouzakis?

Live, it looked like TD Nagao closed it to 11-10. Nagao then tried to give up the escape and go for winning TD but ref said he never lost control.

Match ends. They go to video and next thing I see is 12-7.

But score was actually 13-7.

Was the TD waived off due to a headgear pull and a penalty point awarded to Kilkeary?

Yes, Nagao pulled down on the back of Bouzakis's head gear gaining a positional advantage right before his TD and thus it was waived off. Was confused as well so I rewatched the match on BTN Plus and it was a pretty clear offense.

 

[Split shot]

The big change I want to see with review is a failed challenge costs a point, like it does in the Olympic styles. This would negate the "lunger" challenges, while still encouraging getting the calls right. I agree, the lengthy reviews need to be adjusted, but there should also be consequences for throwing a brick just to throw one.

This^^^^ 100%. Why do you think a 1 point deduction has not been implemented for a failed challenge? Something that would be so easily implemented and accepted. It is never(as far as I know) even discussed when rule changes are being considered. I don't personally know anyone who would be against it. I believe it would cause very, very little controversy, yet it is never even talked about except on this message board from time to time.

 

[NittanyLion84]

Mitchell Mesenbrink vs Bryce Hepner - 165 LBS Full Match, with the Jeff Byers Call

 

[GogglesPaizano]

This^^^^ 100%. Why do you think a 1 point deduction has not been implemented for a failed challenge? Something that would be so easily implemented and accepted. It is never(as far as I know) even discussed when rule changes are being considered. I don't personally know anyone who would be against it. I believe it would cause very, very little controversy, yet it is never even talked about except on this message board from time to time.

I am not sure I like a kid losing a point for an error with the coach's decision making, even in Free. Losing the brick on a lost challenge is a decent deterrent.

I definitely think they need to clean up the coaches influencing the refs or guilting them into a free review where no brick is thrown. No bueno.

 

[El-Jefe]

I don't know how they clean up coaches bullying refs into free reviews, when the refs are in charge of that process. Spinal implant surgery?

 

[PSUwrestling]

Mitchell Mesenbrink vs Bryce Hepner - 165 LBS Full Match, with the Jeff Byers Call

View embedded media

Watching this I don’t see this as MM’s problem. Hepner is a D1 athlete wrestling for one of the better teams in the country and is really good in top. Nagao put a ride in RBY last year and everyone gave props to Nagao.

 

[pish69]

That said, any respectable ranking rep watching the match should drop Davis, not elevate him. I think 8 to 12 would be fair since Kilkeary is unranked.

Thankfully you’re not a ranker. Drop an undefeated wrestler because he won on what you/most feel is a bad call? Cmon now.

The rules are vague with this new reaction time focus. Until they define how long is reaction time no review is going to help. It’s refs decision.

If you’re going to start dropping people in rankings for winning, how do you move up? Losing?

 

[El-Jefe]

If you’re going to start dropping people in rankings for winning, how do you move up? Losing?

Checks out for 125 this year.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

That said, any respectable ranking rep watching the match should drop Davis, not elevate him. I think 8 to 12 would be fair since Kilkeary is unranked. It gives Braedon plenty of B1G matches to rise again, which I'm confident he will.

Now that is a bit of an over reaction. How about this?

Given that we have had 6 or 7 #1 125s lose this season, some to much lower ranked kids, I think the most humane thing to do with this hot mess of a weight class is to rank the top 9 guys all #9, recognizing that pretty much anyone in the top 20 might AA this year, but that none deserve the actual AA level ranking because they are just going to lose yet again once they get it.

 

[mcpat]

Another consideration is that official who didn’t call it a TD, not initially nor after review, seems to be the official the NCAA calls upon most often for its most important matches. I think the NCAA considers him their best official.

 

[PSU Mike]

I am confused as well. Ironhead said it was due to locked hands, which doesn't make sense since you can lock hands before the TD. Even so, had he been given the TD, which I think he should have, he would have lost 10-12 with the riding time point added.

Clearly some adjustments will help. Bouzakis has been handled pretty easily by some better wrestlers so there is an approach to how to game plan him. I suspect very few of us expected to see him down 3 TDs to zero in the first period, that is for sure.

A first step is to not allow the opponent into your legs at will? I have no idea where Aaron's head was relative to positioning, defense, and adjustments, but he had very little of all three in that first period.

Bouzakis is strong and is a pinner. We are starting to see a pattern with Aaron in that he can control a match if he gets on top and gets the boots in.

His opponents now clearly understand he is a bit vulnerable in neutral, and few will choose bottom. It's pretty critical that he scores a couple of takedowns in order to ensure he can work his top game, and wear out his opponents. Aaron is also showing he is a less than 50% guy in scrambles, mostly due to a suprising lack of postitional awareness at times.

If Aaron can tighten up his metal game, get a better feel for scramble situations and the tactics Cael teaches to win them, and play to his strengths, he is a top 4 talent. For whatever reason, given these multiple deficiencies, it's starting to look like his 'unexpected' performance at nationals last year could have been more of a perfect storm scenario than someone jumping levels before everyone's eyes.

I think he has the physical tools to hang with everyone out there, but he needs to get his head right. He is in the best room in the world to work on this stuff, but I think we are all a bit surprised that he hasn't yet jumped a level from last year. He did have that mystery injury that delayed his in-room development for months this summer as well.

We are so spoiled though. Having an AA level guy at every weight is all that we can really ask for as a team and we have that today IMO. It's the fixation on 170 especially given Iowa owns that record that has us wanting each kid to be top 4 or better.

Redshirts aside, Aaron might just have Davis or Lilledahl breathing down his neck sooner rather than later, well just have to wait and see.

Didn’t Nagao get engaged recently? Oh, spyker … !?!

 

[PAgeologist]

I don't know how they clean up coaches bullying refs into free reviews, when the refs are in charge of that process. Spinal implant surgery?

They can put titanium (I believe) rods along their spine to strengthen them. My daughter has them.

 

[El-Jefe]

Another consideration is that official that didn’t call it a TD, not initially nor after review, seems to be the official the NCAA calls upon most often for its most important matches. I think the NCAA considers him their best official.

Related:



Read Barbee's entire thread, plus the comments. Barbee's point is interesting, especially from his professional perspective, though IDK where to draw the line and how to do so in a way that will be reffed consistently.

One of the comments is dangerously close to the UWW "correct throw" nonsense -- the sport needs to steer clear of that dreck.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Another consideration is that official who didn’t call it a TD, not initially nor after review, seems to be the official the NCAA calls upon most often for its most important matches. I think the NCAA considers him their best official.

Sure seems like he’s the one we always get stuck with

 

[KCLion]

Kilkeary is unranked because he is redshirting. McCrone won their internal wrestle off tournament, and has been ranked in the 20-25 range all season. Regardless, Kilkeary is considered the better of the two (especially long term) and the wrestle off loss just made the decision to redshirt him easy, but it’s clear that Kilkeary would be ranked 20 or better has he been the starter from the start of the season.

And Kilkesry and David had history. Kilkeary won the first two times they wrestled.

 

[KCLion]

I am confused as well. Ironhead said it was due to locked hands, which doesn't make sense since you can lock hands before the TD. Even so, had he been given the TD, which I think he should have, he would have lost 10-12 with the riding time point added.

Clearly some adjustments will help. Bouzakis has been handled pretty easily by some better wrestlers so there is an approach to how to game plan him. I suspect very few of us expected to see him down 3 TDs to zero in the first period, that is for sure.

A first step is to not allow the opponent into your legs at will? I have no idea where Aaron's head was relative to positioning, defense, and adjustments, but he had very little of all three in that first period.

Bouzakis is strong and is a pinner. We are starting to see a pattern with Aaron in that he can control a match if he gets on top and gets the boots in.

His opponents now clearly understand he is a bit vulnerable in neutral, and few will choose bottom. It's pretty critical that he scores a couple of takedowns in order to ensure he can work his top game, and wear out his opponents. Aaron is also showing he is a less than 50% guy in scrambles, mostly due to a suprising lack of postitional awareness at times.

If Aaron can tighten up his metal game, get a better feel for scramble situations and the tactics Cael teaches to win them, and play to his strengths, he is a top 4 talent. For whatever reason, given these multiple deficiencies, it's starting to look like his 'unexpected' performance at nationals last year could have been more of a perfect storm scenario than someone jumping levels before everyone's eyes.

I think he has the physical tools to hang with everyone out there, but he needs to get his head right. He is in the best room in the world to work on this stuff, but I think we are all a bit surprised that he hasn't yet jumped a level from last year. He did have that mystery injury that delayed his in-room development for months this summer as well.

We are so spoiled though. Having an AA level guy at every weight is all that we can really ask for as a team and we have that today IMO. It's the fixation on 170 especially given Iowa owns that record that has us wanting each kid to be top 4 or better.

Redshirts aside, Aaron might just have Davis or Lilledahl breathing down his neck sooner rather than later, well just have to wait and see.

I thought the locked hands was a direct result of the ref not awarding the escape that Nagao tried to give him. Nagao thinking he let him up goes in for TD, locks his hands and got dinged.

I could be wrong though.

 

[HikeNatParks]

Thankfully you’re not a ranker. Drop an undefeated wrestler because he won on what you/most feel is a bad call? Cmon now.

The rules are vague with this new reaction time focus. Until they define how long is reaction time no review is going to help. It’s refs decision.

If you’re going to start dropping people in rankings for winning, how do you move up? Losing?

Good points, and, yes, it’s best I’m not that or a ref. Vague rules or not, for me, that’s a TD all day and I’m fine with either a marked loss or lower ranking (even after such a “win”). Doesn’t mean I think less of Braedon. I like him even more after the effort against Kilkeary, a tough kid who’s beaten him before.
Certainly, dropping after winning should maybe only happen if a lower ranked guy has a more impressive victory and leapfrogs. Rising while losing might occur with a close loss to a highly ranked guy. No matter. Your take on the rankings will play out. Mine won’t. Either way, we’ll both have continued joy rooting for our unexpected warrior at 125. Can’t wait for Friday v Ayala.

 

[Hey_Blue]

Speaking of that incident. Were the Buckeyes warned for that outburst from Tom? Shouldn't they have a team point deducted for that? Not that it matters, I'm just curious.

They were issued a bench warning. Probably wouldn't have seen that on TV but would have if you were there.

 

[JOESTROSSER]

Good points, and, yes, it’s best I’m not that or a ref. Vague rules or not, for me, that’s a TD all day and I’m fine with either a marked loss or lower ranking (even after such a “win”). Doesn’t mean I think less of Braedon. I like him even more after the effort against Kilkeary, a tough kid who’s beaten him before.
Certainly, dropping after winning should maybe only happen if a lower ranked guy has a more impressive victory and leapfrogs. Rising while losing might occur with a close loss to a highly ranked guy. No matter. Your take on the rankings will play out. Mine won’t. Either way, we’ll both have continued joy rooting for our unexpected warrior at 125. Can’t wait for Friday v Ayala.

#4 Stanich lost to a HS kid, Forrest Jax(unattached), #5 Ayala lost to #12 D'Augustino who Davis beat. So I don't see either of them passing Davis after Davis got a win. I don't think the Stanich match counts though?

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Rogotzke is much closer to Soldano than to Bo.

Bump

Soldano decks Bo Lite

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

Bump

Soldano decks Bo Lite

Quite a weekend for Rogotzke. Win by fall, lose by fall.

 

[Rocky_Smith]

He gasses after the second. Every match. Been that way 2 years and it ain't changing. Just like little Lord Spencer.

Woods may have indeed been recovering for illness.

But Woods wouldn’t be the first Iowa wrestler to fail to live up to expectations his final year. In fact, that seems to be the most likely path for their guys.

I have to think the intensity of the Iowa room wears anyone down after 4 calendar years.

 

[El-Jefe]

Woods may have indeed been recovering for illness.

But Woods wouldn’t be the first Iowa wrestler to fail to live up to expectations his final year. In fact, that seems to be the most likely path for their guys.

I have to think the intensity of the Iowa room wears anyone down after 4 calendar years.

BRANDS MAKES THEM HATE THE SPORT !!!!

(@Sett1997 -- that was a Spyker-ism.)

 

[dicemen99]

After watching Demilio today against Cetta, we probably need to pump the brakes on the Kasak hype train. I'm guilty as well reading too much into Friday nights win.

Demilio is too small at 149 and not close to the AA level he was at 41.

I'm still trying to buy on Kasak, but I'm no longer sold. Beating Demilio is not an AA level win, more like a NQ level win.

 

[Cstroke]

Any reasons given McCrone didn’t wrestle vs. us but did vs. Rutgers?

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

After watching Demilio today against Cetta, we probably need to pump the brakes on the Kasak hype train. I'm guilty as well reading too much into Friday nights win.

Demilio is too small at 149 and not close to the AA level he was at 41.

I'm still trying to buy on Kasak, but I'm no longer sold. Beating Demilio is not an AA level win, more like a NQ level win.

Yeah, was surprised to see D'Emilio struggle and ultimately lose against Cetta. Does take a bit of luster off Kasak's win over D'Emilio.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

Thankfully you’re not a ranker. Drop an undefeated wrestler because he won on what you/most feel is a bad call? Cmon now.

The rules are vague with this new reaction time focus. Until they define how long is reaction time no review is going to help. It’s refs decision.

If you’re going to start dropping people in rankings for winning, how do you move up? Losing?

Does anybody else find it odd that in a year when they've changed the point value of a takedown, we have a loss of clarity as to what actually constitutes a takedown?

 

[pish69]

Any reasons given McCrone didn’t wrestle vs. us but did vs. Rutgers?

I believe Kilkery is redshirting this year (he’s their best option but why waste a year I guess). So McCrone, also a frosh getting the majority of starts as he will be their NCAA rep. Tan Tom to his credit sent his best team on the mat against us

 

[pish69]

After watching Demilio today against Cetta, we probably need to pump the brakes on the Kasak hype train. I'm guilty as well reading too much into Friday nights win.

Demilio is too small at 149 and not close to the AA level he was at 41.

I'm still trying to buy on Kasak, but I'm no longer sold. Beating Demilio is not an AA level win, more like a NQ level win.

Not really sure there are any brakes to pump. I think the majority of the board is happy we got a true frosh who’s looked great against everyone they’ve put in front of him.

My expectations for Kasak is low AA, bloodround wrestler. I think he’s shown he’s at that level at this point.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Not really sure there are any brakes to pump. I think the majority of the board is happy we got a true frosh who’s looked great against everyone they’ve put in front of him.

My expectations for Kasak is low AA, bloodround wrestler. I think he’s shown he’s at that level at this point.

Look, we have 2 true freshmen who were locks on redshirting 3 months ago. Both are no question NQs which is a blessing in itself, but to think both have a real shot at AA is just a testament to the depth of this incredible program. Kasak may not be knocking out AA guys left and right but the talent is obvious as well as the growth. Both have done everything asked of them so far, and exceeded IMO. I ain't pumping the brakes on either of them.

 

[LongJakk]

I was annoyed Friday that the tOSU coaches basically bullied the refs into having an officals review at 125 instead of throwing their brick. The bitched and moaned until the refs reviewed but the brick never came out. That should not be allowed.

Pretty sure they three the brick, but refs wanted to review anyway so they gave the brick back.

 

[LongJakk]

I saw an interesting scenario about 20 years ago. Cedar Cliff wrestler in sudden death OT takes the kid down and kid is fighting the TD and ends up on his back. CC kid is trying so hard to pin him that he actually puts own shoulder blades on the mat. Ref calls the fall and CC kid loses by fall even tho he got the sudden death TD. It was crazy.

 

[KCLion]

I believe Kilkery is redshirting this year (he’s their best option but why waste a year I guess). So McCrone, also a frosh getting the majority of starts as he will be their NCAA rep. Tan Tom to his credit sent his best team on the mat against us

Did they? Word is McCrone won the wrestle off.

 

[pish69]

Did they? Word is McCrone won the wrestle off.

Just going with my eye test. You may be right

 

[86PSUPaul]

Pretty sure they three the brick, but refs wanted to review anyway so they gave the brick back.

I was there, across from the table, and I never saw the brick out or handed back. But I guess I could have missed it.

 

[Random4598375]

Did they? Word is McCrone won the wrestle off.

Yes. TanTom’s wrestle-offs are done tournament style and open to the public. Kilkeary actually lost to Peyton Fenton in a prelim and then McCrone beat Fenton in the final. Regardless of that result, Kilkeary is viewed as the higher ceiling guy.

Shumate beat Rogotzke, too, and they officially pulled Rogotzke’s shirt this weekend, so you have to assume he’s the starter going forward.

 

[tullfan68]

Watching this I don’t see this as MM’s problem. Hepner is a D1 athlete wrestling for one of the better teams in the country and is really good in top. Nagao put a ride in RBY last year and everyone gave props to Nagao.

don't really care about our guy being ridden as long as he wins and he won!Nolf got ridden once big deal

 

[El-Jefe]

Yes. TanTom’s wrestle-offs are done tournament style and open to the public. Kilkeary actually lost to Peyton Fenton in a prelim and then McCrone beat Fenton in the final. Regardless of that result, Kilkeary is viewed as the higher ceiling guy.

Shumate beat Rogotzke, too, and they officially pulled Rogotzke’s shirt this weekend, so you have to assume he’s the starter going forward.

Too bad you edited out that typo, I had a great gif for it ... bummer.

 

[Random4598375]

Too bad you edited out that typo, I had a great gif for it ... bummer.

LOL. Autocorrect is my sworn enemy.

 

[KCLion]

Yes. TanTom’s wrestle-offs are done tournament style and open to the public. Kilkeary actually lost to Peyton Fenton in a prelim and then McCrone beat Fenton in the final. Regardless of that result, Kilkeary is viewed as the higher ceiling guy.

Shumate beat Rogotzke, too, and they officially pulled Rogotzke’s shirt this weekend, so you have to assume he’s the starter going forward.

Isn’t Shumate injured?